Where do India and Pakistan go from here?

[I.R.A]

1. Masood Azhar was freed after hijack of an Indian Airlines aircraft, from a prison in India, where he had been put in jail for undertaking terror activities, under due laws after due process, while traveling on fake documents. Is hijacking a civil transport a crime in Pakistan? Or is it merely 'social service'?

Did that plane land in Pakistan? Was Pakistan party to negotiations between the Hijackers and the indian government? Were hijackers identified by indian government?

Do you see the problem?

Your people your own indian people fail ...... and a plane full of passengers gets hijacked, lands in Afghanistan, and your people your own people release Masood Azhar. Hijackers vanish in thin air .... w/o anyone knowing who the duck were them.

And somehow Pakistan is supposed to protect indian interests in all this? Pakistani society is expected here to play a role ............

Outlandish, ridiculous, nonsensical.

2. Masood Azhar stays in Pakistan. Well established by all concerned.

Masood Azhar is a Pakistani citizen, and all this happened well before that so called WoT. Colonel Purohit also lives in india. We cannot simply arrest him and sentence him, like you we too do have judiciary, constitution, laws and courts .......

No one knows about his current whereabouts, the rumors are he is on deathbed, so how a person on death bed can plan an attack like Pulwama is beyond me.

Plus JeM is also accused of having attacked Pervez Musharaf the then Pakistan president.

7. Post Pulwama attack, JeM claims the attack, yet Pakistan seeks evidence from India.

Okay so somehow we are supposed to agree w/o any proofs that someone from Pakistan has attacked and claimed it and we should straight away start acting.

If you haven't been watching the news from Pakistan, let me quote you what PM of Pakistan said immediately after the Pulwama attack

"..... Provide us actionable intelligence and I guarantee you that we would take action ...."

Listen after 1:16

You don't want to talk, you don't want to play, you want to isolate us, you keep threatening, you keep claiming victim hood and you so conveniently ignore Your Ajit Doval's statements on record, your PM's statements on record (the only bastard who openly appealed to Pakistani people that he would support them in their insurgency if they go against Pakistani state i.e. Balochistan) and your Kalboshan Jhadev.

If Kashmiris were truly oppressed, you would find that millions can still overthrow any military force. In 30 years it has not happened, one needs to re-asses why.

Okay ............ then this suicide attack was in house job.

Kashmiris want to remove that 35A and 370 ........ and somehow they organise that pellet gun injuries festival right?

Their favorite sport is getting tied to hood of indian military jeeps. And after death they wish to be dragged by indian military on roads.

Whenever they wish to enjoy fireworks ...... they call services of indian military, who gladly oblige and show them a spectacular fire power show right next to their houses .... they don't mind their houses getting demolished in the process.

Burhan Wani had hobby of posing with guns. Just for the sake of it. Like normal people having some hobby.

You haven't listened to Mehbooba Mufti and Farooq Abdullah's of Kashmir ..... I guess.

 

[Hellfire]

@I.R.A

The topics have been so thoroughly discussed that it really is becoming a case of repetitive posting.

I think since people in the subcontinent can not talk things out, they may as well fight. That is why, I keep playing tag with @VCheng to discuss popcorns, because this will stretch.

If I was to take the Pakistani members', Indian opposition's belief of election posturing to the face value, then we are not merely looking at popcorn, but perhaps, tandoori nights coming up. So perhaps a fine bottle of Chartreuse Green is the order of the day, unfortunately, not available in India

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The very same who have been fed the footage, the handiwork of some of the members here? I think - not. The faculties that I have been granted to be able to discern the truth from the charade, allows me the luxury of taking my time to rule in or rule out, an instance as put forward to me.

Vibrio, you sound like the conspiracy theorists on this side that I mock and berate, the ones that blame terrorism in Pakistan on some Hindu-Jewish-US conspiracy.

The fact of the matter is that almost NO ONE globally, is buying the Indian claims. Even those ‘anonymous’ Western ‘officials’ that lost no opportunity to berate Pakistan in the past are nowhere to be found in support of Indian claims.

India and Indians have become a laughing stock the more they push those claims and independent analysis and coverage continues to pile up debunking Indian claims, and this suits Pakistan just fine because it puts the past, present and future credibility of all Indian claims in doubt.

 

[Vapnope]

IF both countries continued on the track they were at for sometime, this will go nowhere to be honest.

Both countries can make the best out of this situation if they don't want their people dead, infra destroyed and economies bad. Pakistan has to ban (in true spirit) the organizations which world has been vary of for understandable reasons not because India wants it but because they have proven to be counter productive and have caused problems for us as well. India will have to sit back and realize that ultra-nationalism isn't going to help them become a super power and engaging Pakistan will solve many things if not everything.

 

[I.R.A]

@I.R.A

The topics have been so thoroughly discussed that it really is becoming a case of repetitive posting.

I think since people in the subcontinent can not talk things out, they may as well fight. That is why, I keep playing tag with @VCheng to discuss popcorns, because this will stretch.

If I was to take the Pakistani members', Indian opposition's belief of election posturing to the face value, then we are not merely looking at popcorn, but perhaps, tandoori nights coming up. So perhaps a fine bottle of Chartreuse Green is the order of the day, unfortunately, not available in India

We can only request ......... please use your vote wisely. And stop blaming us for everything within hours.

A lot of thinking in india about how they view Pakistan has to change ......

 

[Joe Shearer]

The really tragic part of this present situation is not merely the horrible human cost, it is also the excruciating irony of a common position emerging from the statements made by @Vibrio and @Kaniska on one side, and by @AgNoStiC MuSliM, @I.R.A and @Vapnope on another. How strange is it that we all recognise reality but do not recognise different aspects of it when these are articulated by those whom we are accustomed to doubt at the very foundations.

 

[Trango Towers]

Now that the predictable de-escalation is in process, the real question to ask is where do India and Pakistan go from here?

India must realize that it does not have the capability to act with impunity against its neighbor as it might want to think. Although its act of dropping munitions inside Pakistan proper does convey its intentions, it must remain wary of creating the conditions for a wider conflict with unpredictable consequences.

Pakistan must realize that its old policies may no longer work as effectively as in the past and there needs to be a serious revamping. The entire region has changed significantly and Afghanistan may no longer be regarded as their backyard, at least not exclusively. The chances of the consequences reaching directly into Pakistan from actions that would have previously gone unchallenged are now significantly higher.

Pakistanis go to chai khana. Indian go to buy baby wipes

 

[I.R.A]

The really tragic part of this present situation is not merely the horrible human cost, it is also the excruciating irony of a common position emerging from the statements made by @Vibrio and @Kaniska on one side, and by @AgNoStiC MuSliM, @I.R.A and @Vapnope on another. How strange is it that we all recognise reality but do not recognise different aspects of it when these are articulated by those whom we are accustomed to doubt at the very foundations.

I guess we will have to start being neutral and unbiased and start calling spade a spade. We may start by acknowledging which side is being stubborn and which side has repeatedly asked for resolution through talks.

Kashmir remains an unfinished agenda ....... like any other people on this planet, people of Kashmir region should be given the right of self determination.

Grace period till elections in india can be allowed ......... hoping and depending on that no other stunt would happen in between to win elections based on Pakistan bashing.

 

[Hellfire]

We can only request ......... please use your vote wisely. And stop blaming us for everything within hours.

A lot of thinking in india about how they view Pakistan has to change ......

That, the bold, I absolutely agree with.

For the second, unfortunately, the thinking has changed as @Joe Shearer had noted earlier in his post. From a mute ambivalence on repetitive terror strikes in India, to one of anger and now to one of tiredness and the resignation that comes with it, that no more can it be business as usual as we focus primarily on our economy and trying to uplift our masses from poverty. That is where, I tried to point earlier in my rather sarcastic remark of potential tandoori nights, PM Modi is in a fix. It is not he who is setting the agenda in motion; the Indian public wants peace, even if it has to be achieved violently, even if it means risking nuclear exchange. The Common citizen of India is, unfortunately/fortunately, not represented by the Maj Gen GD Bakshis or Barkha Dutts or Arundhati Roy (who talks nonsense on any given day).

 

[coffee_cup]

That is a mistake. The know-how, the knowledge of how to make a complicated IED came from outside;.

This is the thing that I hate about these cunning Indians.

They will write like 3000 lines that on the surface would look very sensible and "neutral" but scratch the surface and you find the baseless allegations without bothering to present any kind of solid evidence. The intent is clear, malign the neighbor for own shortcoming and at the same time keep using all those proxies to wreak havoc in the neighborhood.

The calls for evidence become so loud from these Indians when shown the mirror but themselves they dont feel a slightest need to come up with their own when blaming everyone but themselves.

The situation is this:

1) Indian extremists sitting in the govt miscalculated big time. They started this chest thumping due to forthcoming elections to show how good a bully India is for smaller nations in the region. Once getting her *** kicked badly by a much smaller neighbor, the extremist govt of India is all of a sudden out of ideas what to do next to pump up her extremist electorate.

2) India herself is the main sponsor of cross-border terrorism and still has not stopped doing so. This is FACT!
3) As long as India keeps killing, torturing, raping Kashmiris, there is absolutely no chance that Kashmiris will stop fighting against India.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

This is the thing that I hate about these cunning Indians.

They will write like 3000 lines that on the surface would look very sensible and "neutral" but scratch the surface and you find the baseless allegations without bothering to present any kind of solid evidence. The intent is clear, malign the neighbor for own shortcoming and at the same time keep using all those proxies to wreak havoc in the neighborhood.

The calls for evidence become so loud from these Indians when shown the mirror but themselves they dont feel a slightest need to come up with their own when blaming everyone but themselves.

The situation is this:

1) Indian extremists sitting in the govt miscalculated big time. They started this chest thumping due to forthcoming elections to show how good a bully India is for smaller nations in the region. Once getting her *** kicked badly by a much smaller neighbor, the extremist govt of India is all of a sudden out of ideas what to do next to pump up her extremist electorate.

2) India herself is the main sponsor of cross-border terrorism and still has not stopped doing so. This is FACT!
3) As long as India keeps killing, torturing, raping Kashmiris, there is absolutely no chance that Kashmiris will stop fighting against India.

You hit the issue on the nail there.

It isn’t difficult to separate hollow words from the substance.

What is needed now is a more permanent fully fenced border and absolute complete cutting off of India from our side.

This means Pakistanis (even in diaspora) should boycott Indian products, stop watching Indian films or listening to their songs, and be wary of friendships with Indians (keep your logical distance.)

I saw this coming a long time ago from the rhetoric coming out of India. These Hindu fascists have studied Nazism well and have used a similar means (hooliganism) to get into power.

We are dealing with an implacable foe, fascism can only be defeated through war and victory because a fascist ideology needs constant victories (or illusions of victories) to justify its existence to its supporters.

Hence the propaganda of Modi to turn physical defeats into illusions of victory.

You guys need to watch documentaries of how Hitler came to power.

American tea partiers and Israelis came to power by the same means.

 

[I.R.A]

That, the bold, I absolutely agree with.

For the second, unfortunately, the thinking has changed as @Joe Shearer had noted earlier in his post. From a mute ambivalence on repetitive terror strikes in India, to one of anger and now to one of tiredness and the resignation that comes with it, that no more can it be business as usual as we focus primarily on our economy and trying to uplift our masses from poverty. That is where, I tried to point earlier in my rather sarcastic remark of potential tandoori nights, PM Modi is in a fix. It is not he who is setting the agenda in motion; the Indian public wants peace, even if it has to be achieved violently, even if it means risking nuclear exchange. The Common citizen of India is, unfortunately/fortunately, not represented by the Maj Gen GD Bakshis or Barkha Dutts or Arundhati Roy (who talks nonsense on any given day).

No other stable country except Pakistan knows what repetitive terror strikes look like. Please don't mind when I say if you had seen what we saw, you would have collapsed, not trying to compare or boast .... but I seriously am trying to prove how different the response has been.

The majority common indians need to understand that war is ugly and its not some Guddi gudday ka khail. They need to understand that Pakistan is not what their media and movie makers portray (we don't wear that skull cap, shalwar kameez, muffler and surma / kajal in our eyes)........ we are peaceful, broad minded with bigger hearts, Pakistan is strong, its resilient and it will retaliate, Pakistan's war against terror not only battle hardened its forces but people as well. We want peace because we have seen a lot and lost a lot in an unconventional war, we know who did what to us, but we still wish peace .... not because we are selfish or afraid, but because we don't want this region to suffer like we did. We are the people who have shown you our seriousness and maturity in our last three elections (none revolved around how we will teach india a lesson).

modi manipulated the frustration of his countrymen to hating everything Pakistan, in fact not Pakistan but anything that questions BJP, its tactics and its actions. I am sure you know the new trend in india is don't question your forces, no questions, no explanation or else its treason ........ call it karma.


We have already said countless times, lets sit and talk. I hope common indian has learnt his lesson and won't push modi and Bakshis anymore for a war and I also hope that common indian is lifted out of poverty and gets to see the outside world .....

 

[Hellfire]

No other stable country except Pakistan knows what repetitive terror strikes look like. Please don't mind when I say if you had seen what we saw, you would have collapsed, not trying to compare or boast .... but I seriously am trying to prove how different the response has been.

The majority common indians need to understand that war is ugly and its not some Guddi gudday ka khail. They need to understand that Pakistan is not what their media and movie makers portray (we don't wear that skull cap, shalwar kameez, muffler and surma / kajal in our eyes)........ we are peaceful, broad minded with bigger hearts, Pakistan is strong, its resilient and it will retaliate, Pakistan's war against terror not only battle hardened its forces but people as well. We want peace because we have seen a lot and lost a lot in an unconventional war, we know who did what to us, but we still wish peace .... not because we are selfish or afraid, but because we don't want this region to suffer like we did. We are the people who have shown you our seriousness and maturity in our last three elections (none revolved around how we will teach india a lesson).

modi manipulated the frustration of his countrymen to hating everything Pakistan, in fact not Pakistan but anything that questions BJP, its tactics and its actions. I am sure you know the new trend in india is don't question your forces, no questions, no explanation or else its treason ........ call it karma.


We have already said countless times, lets sit and talk. I hope common indian has learnt his lesson and won't push modi and Bakshis anymore for a war and I also hope that common indian is lifted out of poverty and gets to see the outside world .....

Let me try and sum up what I see, in words of Mr. Shivshanker Menon as under. This more or less, sums up what I. and we think and what we see. Not all, but plenty of those who matter, in Armed Forces, Civil Society and in public in general

 

[I.R.A]

Let me try and sum up what I see, in words of Mr. Shivshanker Menon as under. This more or less, sums up what I. and we think and what we see. Not all, but plenty of those who matter, in Armed Forces, Civil Society and in public in general

You are entitled to what you wish to see ......... and we as usual would ask for concrete proofs, without proofs its all farts. The opening of the debate / talk show you posted is about Balakot ...... I would have expected more from a former NSA rather than simple plain we struck terror and fla fla fla .... but whatever suits him and his countrymen, if it was me (a common layman) I would have asked this NSA what are basis for attacking Pakistan, violating its sovereignty when the attack was done by a Kashmiri from IOK, in IOK using everything local. And I would have asked him the widows and mothers of deceased CPRF are asking for some visible proof of what you did to avenge the deaths of their loved ones ......... If your NSA is content with relying on verbal statement of your Air Chief (which neither confirmed anything if they had struck any camp) then us Pakistanis have seen it with our own eyes and we believe what our ISPR says.

By the way based on his logic Pakistan should have attacked Afghanistan some thousand times. Bombed the hell out of them.

 

[VCheng]

In which case I assume you understand that India/Modi carried out military strikes in Pakistan that almost led to war over an incident that had little tangible ties to Pakistan outside of the name of the group.

So what guarantee is there that, regardless of the actions that Pakistan takes, the next time some brutalized Kashmiri decides to blow himself up somewhere in IOK or even India proper, India will not hold Pakistan responsible?

Politics in a democracy, especially when it involves leaders who are religious extremists wielding a toxic religio-nationalism, lends itself to scapegoating external actors or ‘the other’. Leaders like Modi can’t afford to be seen as ‘weak’ on the security front, not least in front of an ‘other’ whose religio-nationalism is perceived as the antithesis to their own religio-nationalism. So why would Modi or someone else like him accept the next Kashmiri attacker as being the result of India’s tactics and policies in Kashmir? Modi’s solution to Pulwama was to blame Pakistan, almost start a war and buckle down on the same policies in IoK that caused Pulwama in the first place.

That is a mistake. The know-how, the knowledge of how to make a complicated IED came from outside; it was not a heap of explosives piled into a car with a detonator, but a sophisticated arrangement that ensured explosion only when wanted, as wanted, and ensured beyond accident. Without that fine touch, the enraged local, the locally purchased car, the perhaps locally procured RDX, the availability of an opportunity, all these local features would have been nothing more than a minor local incident.

The reason I can accept Pulwama as a matter internal to India is not just a(n intentional) mistake, as Joe describes it, or even to throw a bone to the side that has already lost this particular battle of perception in the wider context, but also that it does not matter.

The response of the international community, not only USA describing Balakot as a counter-terrorism operation, but also China right down to OIC, should be an ample indicator of things to come for Pakistan.

Whether it heeds the message or not is up to its decision making apparati, but given its past record and results delivered, there is not much reason to hope.

The really tragic part of this present situation is not merely the horrible human cost, it is also the excruciating irony of a common position emerging from the statements made by @Vibrio and @Kaniska on one side, and by @AgNoStiC MuSliM, @I.R.A and @Vapnope on another. How strange is it that we all recognise reality but do not recognise different aspects of it when these are articulated by those whom we are accustomed to doubt at the very foundations.

Reality has its own way of making itself recognized, whether any and all parties do it willingly, or unwillingly. And as @Vibrio mentioned above, washing down copious mouthfuls of popcorn with a drink of choice may be the best thing to do while such realizations sink in. And sink in they must, for reality does not care.

Not exactly sure where they might go from here, but I am sure that I hope whatever does happen, doesn’t involve a nuclear exchange.

I am quite certain there will not be a nuclear exchange between the two parties. Both sides are too wise to let that happen, rest assured.