Where do India and Pakistan go from here?

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I can accept Pulwana as an internal matter of India.

In which case I assume you understand that India/Modi carried out military strikes in Pakistan that almost led to war over an incident that had little tangible ties to Pakistan outside of the name of the group.

So what guarantee is there that, regardless of the actions that Pakistan takes, the next time some brutalized Kashmiri decides to blow himself up somewhere in IOK or even India proper, India will not hold Pakistan responsible?

Politics in a democracy, especially when it involves leaders who are religious extremists wielding a toxic religio-nationalism, lends itself to scapegoating external actors or ‘the other’. Leaders like Modi can’t afford to be seen as ‘weak’ on the security front, not least in front of an ‘other’ whose religio-nationalism is perceived as the antithesis to their own religio-nationalism. So why would Modi or someone else like him accept the next Kashmiri attacker as being the result of India’s tactics and policies in Kashmir? Modi’s solution to Pulwama was to blame Pakistan, almost start a war and buckle down on the same policies in IoK that caused Pulwama in the first place.

 

[Joe Shearer]

That’s just it. He’s an extremist, and extremists, whether Hindu or Muslim, don’t care about the cost of their actions or even if the pursuit of their goals results in widespread destruction.

That said, the one thing Modi, and people with rage (as described by Vibrio), perhaps don’t recognize is that Pakistan and Pakistanis live with that same rage and militant desire to succeed against the ‘enemy’. That should be obvious from the institutional and national (people) response to the IAF strikes in Balakot.

Does Pakistan recognize that in a full out war it will be outgunned and out manned? Yes, which is why Pakistani retaliation will always be preceded by, accompanied with and followed by calls for deescalation. But calls for deescalation should not be confused with a lack of commitment, courage or will to retaliate to our fullest extent.

Pakistan, all of Pakistan, not just one disputed state, went through a decade of fire, chaos and destruction wreaked by the TTP and associated groups, a situation India has not even come close to experiencing at a national level. Pakistan went through a civil war and dismemberment in 1971. Indians look at these events and call Pakistan a failed State. But I would point out that throughout Pakistan’s history, no matter the blood and destruction Pakistan has gone through, no matter the cost in blood and treasure paid, the country and her people have never bowed down, and never will.

Vibrio says that India has tried everything. He is wrong. India has not genuinely tried to engage with Pakistan to arrive at some sort of compromise over Kashmir, not recently at least. It was India (or the Indian establishment) that scuttled Musharraf’s proposals the last time around we had a genuine chance at resolution. India has not sincerely engaged since, and the feeling within Pakistan, after the Musharraf failure, is that India never will. Some introspection on the Indian side as to her role in contributing to the situation is also necessary.

There is so much in your post to agree with. There is also so much that @Vibrio and @Kaniska have said that, again, I have to agree with, equally reluctantly as my agreement with you.

Let me confine myself to one point alone, a reference to the part in red. We stumbled and fell at that point, and we are all suffering the consequences. I hope there is a God, for then one can say, may God forgive Advani, and those who supported him; certainly no human being has the moral authority to do so.

 

[KAL-EL]

Not exactly sure where they might go from here, but I am sure that I hope whatever does happen, doesn’t involve a nuclear exchange.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

@Joe Shearer
While some of my post that you quoted possibly came across as jingoistic, the intent was not so much of ‘throwing Pakistani bravery in the face of Indians’, but to highlight that neither side is going to bow down in the face of coercive measures.

I’ve seen a lot of Indians talk about ‘increasing the pain for Pakistan’ across a variety of platforms over the last few years, and this post was meant to point out why ‘coercive escalation’ of the kind being debated by these people is only going to result in an escalation by both sides, to the massive detriment of the people’s of both nations.

 

[Hellfire]

Are you seriously still sticking to the stance, now debunked by almost every independent media organization and multiple satellite image analysts, that the IAF actually hit something other than a bunch of trees?

1. Would you rather that I believe the Pakistani side which has a history of consistently denying facts (presented in Kargil War for example), blatantly disregarding evidence/facts by claiming anyone putting forth the facts that are contrary to the narrative required to be pushed, is motivated by an opportunistically hostile intent (JeM, it's role in Mumbai attack, as put forth not only by India but also by Intelligence services from across the world)?

Or your DG ISPR, who claimed 03 Indian pilots, made the PM declare 02 and confirmed only 01 by the end of the day and through gullible and 'not so gullible' here, is trying to push forward a narrative of IAF pilot dying in CMH and 'since IAF has not asked for him, Pakistan has not declared him', citing everything from 'loss of Modi's face' (for India not asking for him) to 'do not want to undermine the peace' for Pakistan not declaring? Was it Kargil where it took Pakistan a decade to accept its involvement, when it took 10 mins for the whole world to know it, and the same 10 decades to accept it's forces were there? The coup de grace being your giving it the appearance of DG ISPR verifying and revising?

IAF did not make any claims. They kept quiet. It takes time, to what Oscar kept saying as 'fog of war', for situation to be clear, information to be collated and accurate image to be available. All claims and purported numbers came from Indian Media, based on "sources", a laugh by any stretch of imagination.

2. The GoI and IAF have made only two statements:

a. Of targeting (by IAF) JeM infrastructure (GoI) and claims of 'large number of casualties' (GoI).
b. Use of precision weapons (GoI & IAF).

3. As for the multiple independent media/satellite image analysts. For 3 or 4 days post strike, the area was under a complete cloud cover, multiple defence enthusiasts kept an eye over the area, willing to pay to get the photographs. I can do a lot in that time frame. So, till as such time GoI does not put forth the data it has, I would rather believe them.

4. As for the photographs of the 'site' put forth by your side, exhibiting damage to trees, I can take you to multiple sites in a thickly forested area, and put forth a veritable mix of 'bomb damage' and exhibit it to you, without you being none the wiser. And I can also show you similar effects using a FAE on temporary camps which would hardly leave any craters around.

With all due respect to your service, if you're still insistent on believing claims that are belied by all the available facts and evidence, it reflects poorly on the process you're utilizing to arrive at the conclusions in your post. More importantly, from a regional and global perspective, it's a rather sobering thought that there are likely many others like you in positions such as yours, with varying degrees of influence individually (and potentially a significant degree of influence as a collective) that may also be utilizing similarly unsubstantiated claims to formulate views and lobby for decisions/policies based on those flawed views.

With all due respects sir, you will hardly find me making any claims of this yet. I have not yet commented what was targeted, what was intercepted and what was achieved. Please go through my posts here and point to me where I have put forth a figure or a BDA. I have put forth Indian viewpoint, and when Pakistan put forth a contrarian view, addressing the members from the country, used the word 'supposedly', to denote the acknowledgement of their view point.

When and where I emphatically know something to be incorrect, I point it out. Like the Quadcopter issue. I emphatically maintained Indian Army does not use it (the photograph depicted a DJI), the thick heads that your members here are, did not read it, process it and understand it. When Zarvan posted the photograph of a Major of PA with a DRDO Netra Quadcopter for the same incident, I accepted it. But those thick heads were being the sarcastic trolls, without realizing what I had said and what I had indicated. How can I accept a platform not in service with Indian Army as being in service with them? Could it be of someone else's? Say for example BSF? It could be. Similarly, the video footage was exposed by me as Pakistani post bearing a Pakistani flag was marked in it as Indian post. How can I accept that as a proof?

Even for the name of the supposed downed PAF pilot, I asked Oscar here clearly, accepting that since it is unverified by me and was getting it as I was online here, am asking, and he denied. And that was the end of the matter for me till as such time another information which is verified by me in my own way, comes forth. I have not claimed his name as that of the Pilot and tried to build a narrative on it, for simply put, I have not been able to verify it. Only debunked few supposed TTAs here claiming Shazuddin is not a name of Pakistani (and in same breath saying neither is Kasab)! I think I can hardly be held guilty of being gullible.

For your F-16, I have maintained I am convinced, not confirmed, for the latter requires either a wreckage or acceptance of a shoot down by your side. Neither is available. Convinced, because I have been able to piece together a picture that has been put forth by multiple sources exceeding a score in quantity, all from a diverse background along with information gleaned off ELINT/SIGINT and ATC RT database, shared through grapevine in terms of the summation . Could it be wrong, it could be, but data convinces me that it may not be.

As for Mig 21, I put forward the exact situation that happened, as I could confirm, it is there for all to see.


Sir, for the bold, unfortunately the realm of the Military Operations does not permit anyone to get away with falsification/obfuscation of facts for too long, especially in a democracy (or mobocracy) like India. Even if there is an attempt, usually the same becomes a general knowledge in the relatively small defence community quite quickly. I have been blowing holes in the claims of fanboys on our side of the border including our so called defence experts, when required, who claim anything and everything.

My post above, was I speaking purely in a militarist way, putting forth a viewpoint, that any military man or woman would hold, who has the experience and knowledge of the theater. I did declare it as such. It remains in the Political domain for India, to decide whether it is a policy that should be followed, encouraged, discouraged or dealt with, based purely on the political and diplomatic cost-benefit analysis.

regards

 

[Joe Shearer]

The shell game I am referring to involves the periodic roundups and bans on proscribed organizations by the Government of Pakistan, which are then free to resume their activities under other names, until the next round. I can accept Pulwana as an internal matter of India.

That is a mistake. The know-how, the knowledge of how to make a complicated IED came from outside; it was not a heap of explosives piled into a car with a detonator, but a sophisticated arrangement that ensured explosion only when wanted, as wanted, and ensured beyond accident. Without that fine touch, the enraged local, the locally purchased car, the perhaps locally procured RDX, the availability of an opportunity, all these local features would have been nothing more than a minor local incident.

@Joe Shearer
While some of my post that you quoted possibly came across as jingoistic, the intent was not so much of ‘throwing Pakistani bravery in the face of Indians’, but to highlight that neither side is going to bow down in the face of coercive measures.

I’ve seen a lot of Indians talk about ‘increasing the pain for Pakistan’ across a variety of platforms over the last few years, and this post was meant to point out why ‘coercive escalation’ of the kind being debated by these people is only going to result in an escalation by both sides, to the massive detriment of the people’s of both nations.

No, I recognised what you were doing, and the explanation was unnecessary. It is a pain that I experienced vicariously, reading the accounts of very good friends who were losing acquaintances, friends, relatives on a weekly basis for several nightmare years. It is not a pain I should like to experience at closer quarters - many of us have no idea of what the Pakistani man in the street went through in those terrible years, when sometimes it seemed to the appalled gaze of the mesmerised onlooker that the very fabric of a nation was crumbling even as we looked on helplessly.

What @Vibrio and @Kaniska are articulating is the distillate of public opinion in recent years; it has changed from, frankly, an amiable disinterest in the years before 26/11, a day-to-day apathy punctuated by an enthusiastic bid to barge into cultural events graced by known performers who were loved as you cannot imagine, sitting far away, and its gradual transmutation to a dull anger without any way of expressing it as atrocity followed atrocity, as cities were torn by explosions and attacked by murderous, armed gangs smuggled across our borders, as our institutions were attacked, as our trains and buses were attacked, and as a handful of our citizens were seduced into treason.

Much smaller than the trauma that Pakistan went through, in some, particularly, in Pakistani eyes, but disturbing and angering at the same time to millions of Indians.

Now the mood is divided very deeply; at one end is an extremely small percentage of our population, that extremely small percentage being blown up by the sheer size of the whole into mobs of dozens, even hundreds, in the middle is the seething anger at the acts of support that seem to have existed from circumstantial evidence - @VCheng was wrong in agreeing to local foundation for Pulwama and you were wrong in taking him at face value - and at another end, smaller than the lunatic fringe, is the dispossessed section hoping against hope for peace.

At this moment, what we need to do is to build our auto-immunity as a country, and get rid of the virus that has affected us. Entirely a matter for our internal concern and action, and not helped in the least by the coarse and boorish reactions of some Pakistanis, their all too evident Schadenfreude, and thereafter, an effort that may take years, our need to build in some preventive mechanisms, what those will be, nobody knows at the moment.

What we need from Pakistan is for that country and its responsible citizens to convert their own firm resolve against terrorism to translate into firm resolve not to be pawns, and not to be used by religious idiots to commit murder within a neighbouring country, and to tell its own military to come to its senses, to stop indoctrinating itself through inspirational rhetoric to a hatred of the neighbouring people and state. Not a very grand programme, something that is needed to be done for its own sake, if not for our sakes.

About Kashmir, there is an unpleasant truth that Pakistanis must come to know, perhaps even to accept. India doesn't want to talk to Pakistan about Kashmir. India may talk, once a rational government comes to power, and the Congress is not rational in this context; they are not the peacemakers. But India is determined to talk to those who have a legal right to be heard, and in the eyes of a vast majority, an overwhelming majority of Indians, Pakistan neither had nor has developed any right to be involved. India will talk, but to local people, to Indian citizens, setting right their grievances, upsetting humiliating security protocols and procedure. It is only after their own guilt has been assuaged, to whatever extent, that any Indian government, not wishing to be lynched in its own offices, will reach out, very, very cautiously, to talk to Pakistan.

The inherent danger is obvious. A frustrated and irritated Pakistan may in its own turn seek to bring India to her knees through a sustained campaign of terror. It won't work, just as it didn't work in Pakistan.

 

[Hellfire]

I knew I wouldn't like it, but I also know that the military is beginning to ask if the government - any government - is serious about solving problems.

At least you were forthright in your views.

Again a militarist view:

Prosecution of War has a 'use by' date. Simple. One can not prosecute a war endlessly. Otherwise, it merely becomes an endless pantomime celebrating violence and gore.
And the only means of ending a war is a political dialogue/decision.

Our use by date for military means to curb violence in valley had reached the use by date in 2006. MMS led UPA slept on it. By 2010, the new cycle had started. This one has a use by date 4 to 6 years away. Or earlier, if the present dispensation has its way.

 

[Kaniska]

That’s just it. He’s an extremist, and extremists, whether Hindu or Muslim, don’t care about the cost of their actions or even if the pursuit of their goals results in widespread destruction.

That said, the one thing Modi, and people with rage (as described by Vibrio), perhaps don’t recognize is that Pakistan and Pakistanis live with that same rage and militant desire to succeed against the ‘enemy’. That should be obvious from the institutional and national (people) response to the IAF strikes in Balakot.

Does Pakistan recognize that in a full out war it will be outgunned and out manned? Yes, which is why Pakistani retaliation will always be preceded by, accompanied with and followed by calls for deescalation. But calls for deescalation should not be confused with a lack of commitment, courage or will to retaliate to our fullest extent.

Pakistan, all of Pakistan, not just one disputed state, went through a decade of fire, chaos and destruction wreaked by the TTP and associated groups, a situation India has not even come close to experiencing at a national level. Pakistan went through a civil war and dismemberment in 1971. Indians look at these events and call Pakistan a failed State. But I would point out that throughout Pakistan’s history, no matter the blood and destruction Pakistan has gone through, no matter the cost in blood and treasure paid, the country and her people have never bowed down, and never will.

Vibrio says that India has tried everything. He is wrong. India has not genuinely tried to engage with Pakistan to arrive at some sort of compromise over Kashmir, not recently at least. It was India (or the Indian establishment) that scuttled Musharraf’s proposals the last time around we had a genuine chance at resolution. India has not sincerely engaged since, and the feeling within Pakistan, after the Musharraf failure, is that India never will. Some introspection on the Indian side as to her role in contributing to the situation is also necessary.

Why do you think i underwstimate Pakistan here....At the time of any rationale analysis of any situation...Modi and BJP knows very well that Pakistan is not just another country...They are taking huge risk and potential to lead a full scale war by accepting the fact that war will create heavy loss of life from India too..
I think we have discussed in detail about the mindset of India about Kashmir issue...
But every suffering of a nation has a tipping point..the rationale behind escalation of conflict is pass a message that we are upset with the continuous support of Pakistan to those elements within Pakistan who are anti Indian in nature..

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Would you rather that I believe the Pakistani side

No, I’d rather you believe the independent journalists and media organizations, some of whole were taken to the site within a day, and the multiple locals interviewed by both international and Pakistani media organizations.

With respect to ‘cloud cover’ are you suggesting that the satellite imagery analysis by international analysts is forged, because they are using before and after images of the strike location to make these damage assessments that show zero damage.

You certainly can’t expect me to take the word of a nation, India, whose leadership wallows in religio-nationalist filth and communal terrorism and has made a sport out of the brutal occupation of millions of Kashmiris and undertaken a program of lies, hate and prejudice to brainwash a generation of Indians.

 

[I.R.A]

And the most important and crucial element that comes to fore is the Pakistani society that supports, nurtures and provides these organizations that bleed my nation.

Until and unless this base feels exponential pain and bleeds every time we bleed, the actions will not change. No amount of coercing the Government or militarily pressurizing the Pakistani Armed Forces, will change the approach.

So basically indian military or some circles of it see common Pakistanis as all terrorists or terrorist sponsors. Was this the motivation to kill 70,000 of them? I hope we are still playing truth or dare.

Here is my conspiracy theory ....... whatever transpired from the current situation somehow I think Pakistan is holding on to some critical information that it intends to use to blackmail modi ....... something that we can disclose close to indian elections and significantly damage modi's election campaign .... or help him by not disclosing to win again if he promises to come back to his senses. Conspiracy theory ..... because I have been saying this Pakistan has hijacked indian elections.

--------------------------------------

The narrative that indians dropped bombs to only prove that we can come into your territory is a stolen one, Pakistan said this openly after their retaliatory response, before that it was all over india that we have struck a major base, killed 300 something and what not. Actually indian action was continuation of their circus that they started playing in 2016 when they claimed surgical strikes .... it was this same thing at that time, we struck, we killed and we destroyed. However, the repeat of that stupidity hasn't brought any rewards this time ....... the reward normally is fooling the gullible confused indian public ..... that somehow feels happy at loss of Pakistani lives and destruction.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

That is a mistake. The know-how, the knowledge of how to make a complicated IED came from outside;

That genie, infortunately, was out of the bottle a long time ago. The tactics and knowhow perfected in Iraq against US and Iraqi forces filtered into Pakistan and were used extensively against Pakistan and Afghanistan.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Again a militarist view:

Prosecution of War has a 'use by' date. Simple. One can not prosecute a war endlessly. Otherwise, it merely becomes an endless pantomime celebrating violence and gore.
And the only means of ending a war is a political dialogue/decision.

Our use by date for military means to curb violence in valley had reached the use by date in 2006. MMS led UPA slept on it. By 2010, the new cycle had started. This one has a use by date 4 to 6 years away. Or earlier, if the present dispensation has its way.

You have a point, but it is to be wished by all that the current government will not continue to lust for a bloody retribution quite so obviously.

A point that you should also take on board is that before the death of Burhan Wani, it was still relatively quiet in J&K - not as quiet as in earlier years, before the PDP-BJP marriage made in hell, but still not as turbulent as today. It was a mistake to take a publicity-obsessed kid strutting around in war-gear with guns he had never fired in anger to be on par with any other gun-bearing militant, and I know that I will get a disbelieving glance from anybody involved in security operations. Maybe more effort could have gone into turning him; maybe he could have been given an option to surrender once he realised that there was no escape. I don't know, and can only wish it were otherwise.

 

[Hellfire]

No, I’d rather you believe the independent journalists and media organizations,

The very same who have been fed the footage, the handiwork of some of the members here? I think - not. The faculties that I have been granted to be able to discern the truth from the charade, allows me the luxury of taking my time to rule in or rule out, an instance as put forward to me.

some of whole were taken to the site within a day, and the multiple locals interviewed by both international and Pakistani media organizations.

Through cloud cover using a SAR and then digitally reconstructed to the present form?

With respect to ‘cloud cover’ are you suggesting that the satellite imagery analysis by international analysts is forged, because they are using before and after images of the strike location to make these damage assessments that show zero damage.

I am neither suggesting nor inferring. Merely suggesting that it would auger well to undertake the due diligence to ascertain facts. If there was cloud cover, the next logical question that arises is, were they SAR images?

You certainly can’t expect me to take the word of a nation, India, whose leadership wallows in religio-nationalist filth and communal terrorism

Firstly, no one is asking you to take anyone's word. Have, on the contrary, pushed forward the subtle suggestion of not taking anything till officially confirmed.

Secondly.
Your assumptions, in line with the official line being pushed in Pakistan, here.

Communal terrorism, indeed. Just because a Muslim is told that the nation is before a religion, upending the basic madrasa teaching of the fundoos that is being taught in terror factories all over the world and that changes the priority to nation first, it becomes a communal terrorism?

Just because in India, the Law states that unauthorized butcher of Cattle will not be undertaken and majority of illegal butcheries being run were owned by Muslims and shut down, it becomes communal terrorism?

I am sure you see 100s of Muslims being killed in India daily.

And why is Religion a filth when we give it space (although I agree it has no place in public domain) when, look around yourself here in this forum itself, the refrain 'we are Muslim......', 'muslim brothers...'; every other statement by a Pakistani is 'Muslim' this and 'Muslim' that. Where is your astute observation here itself? How is expecting people to respect the majority religion, an advice even issued in Emirate of Dubai for foreigners who are the largest proportion of population there, wrong just because it is the Muslim who is supposedly targeted?

Let me understand this one, all non-Muslims are expected to respect the religious sentiments when a Muslim is in governance ,even though being a small fraction of population (eg Emirate of Dubai), but a Muslim has to have his freedom (undertaking actions not in consonance with non-Muslims' way of living/belief system) everywhere? Is that not the problem that all Western Nations face, leading to a backlash against the Muslims everywhere today? If you want to impose your religious beliefs, head over to Middle East, the ecosystem to live and flourish under that set of beliefs and way of life exists. Why is a non-Muslim expected to be flexible and malleable yet a Muslim expects to have other respect his belief system at all times and under all conditions?

And why is nationalism wrong? Why did you hand punishment as per your law to the Pakistani fan who unfurled the Indian Flag out of his love for Virat Kohli? Just because Indians do it, it is wrong?

What a strange logic!

and has made a sport out of the brutal occupation of millions of Kashmiris and undertaken a program of lies, hate and prejudice to brainwash a generation of Indians.

This is where you exemplify precisely what you are trying to put forth - brainwash.

Millions of 'brutally suppressed' Kashmiris, same Kashmiris who outnumber Indian troops there, same Kashmiris who throng in tens of thousands to join Security Forces, same Kashmiris, who are so oppressed that had their oppression not been so complete, they would have marched in their millions and simply done a peaceful overrun of any Indian Army Company location!! The same Kashmiri, who, being so oppressed, has more money right now in quite a few instances, than my 15 generations can make collectively, and still wants to suffer in India when he/she can simply migrate to any point in the world. How about you take all of them, we have not stopped. Since obviously Indian army is so brutal and their life is hell. I am sure people love hell.

Are you even able to appreciate what fictitious and dissonant narrative you have written here?

So basically indian military or some circles of it see common Pakistanis as all terrorists or terrorist sponsors.

God, I love how you inferred that from my post. Underscores what the problem in Indo-Pak relationship is.

Was this the motivation to kill 70,000 of them? I hope we are still playing truth or dare.

Can you verify the names of the 70000 killed, as you claim, as being natives of Kashmir? Or perhaps, more than half, of the figure (assuming to be true) are 'exotic varieties'?

Here is my conspiracy theory ....... whatever transpired from the current situation somehow I think Pakistan is holding on to some critical information that it intends to use to blackmail modi ....... something that we can disclose close to indian elections and significantly damage modi's election campaign .... or help him by not disclosing to win again if he promises to come back to his senses. Conspiracy theory ..... because I have been saying this Pakistan has hijacked indian elections.

You have a point, but it is to be wished by all that the current government will not continue to lust for a bloody retribution quite so obviously.

A point that you should also take on board is that before the death of Burhan Wani, it was still relatively quiet in J&K - not as quiet as in earlier years, before the PDP-BJP marriage made in hell, but still not as turbulent as today. It was a mistake to take a publicity-obsessed kid strutting around in war-gear with guns he had never fired in anger to be on par with any other gun-bearing militant, and I know that I will get a disbelieving glance from anybody involved in security operations. Maybe more effort could have gone into turning him; maybe he could have been given an option to surrender once he realised that there was no escape. I don't know, and can only wish it were otherwise.

Again, recall my post repeatedly here, on why we needed to eliminate him? What changed? We had him under observation for 06 years. It was a political directive, not from Delhi, but from Unified Command at J&K.

The answer, lies there.

Something I have oft said, Indian Army was out from majority of towns and villages, troops had drawn down, moving onto LC and Ladakh/Jammu. CRPF was by and large in towns and cities, lesser number of troops as they spread out and visibility of SFs decreased, with JKP taking over security in majority of cases. Draw down of troops took place from 2007-2014. What changed?


Perhaps, the answer lies in the war economy that exists. A lovely economy, of contractors and suppliers supplying the forces, working for both the Politicians and Spearatists in valley, exists.

Your answer lies somewhere there.

I am all for violence if it fast forwards a political solution, otherwise, it will be similar to what transpired earlier, culling of another generation.

 

[I.R.A]

God, I love how you inferred that from my post. Underscores what the problem in Indo-Pak relationship is.

I hope you don't mind issuing a clarification on this statement of your's

"And the most important and crucial element that comes to fore is the Pakistani society that supports, nurtures and provides these organizations that bleed my nation."

Can you verify the names of the 70000 killed, as you claim, as being natives of Kashmir? Or perhaps, more than half, of the figure (assuming to be true) are 'exotic varieties'?

I am talking about Pakistanis. As for Kashmiris I think they don't need any kind of military assistance from us, your policies under modi are enough to help them, it would be best for us and them, that we support and raise their pleas diplomatically on all international fora.

No matter how much I would like modi to get reelected and continue with his vision .......... somehow I don't wish that, its for sake of all of us.

 

[Hellfire]

I hope you don't mind issuing a clarification on this statement of your's

"And the most important and crucial element that comes to fore is the Pakistani society that supports, nurtures and provides these organizations that bleed my nation."

Okay, the following points:

1. Masood Azhar was freed after hijack of an Indian Airlines aircraft, from a prison in India, where he had been put in jail for undertaking terror activities, under due laws after due process, while traveling on fake documents. Is hijacking a civil transport a crime in Pakistan? Or is it merely 'social service'?

2. Masood Azhar stays in Pakistan. Well established by all concerned.

3. His organization and it's subsidaries, not only are based in Pakistan, but work within it's society. CSR activities, perhaps?

4. JeM claimed the Dec 2001 Parliament Attack.

5. The Organization, along with the founder, is declared terrorist organization not only by India but the whole of world.

6. The JeM and its subsidaries get financial, HR support and shelter within Pakistani society.

7. Post Pulwama attack, JeM claims the attack, yet Pakistan seeks evidence from India.

The list is too long. When a War on Terror has to be prosecuted, it makes little sense until you target the support base and infrastructure. That lies within Pakistani society, in terms of sustenance out of economic activity, HR aspects in terms of cadres and 'volunteers' to undertake 'special assignment' and protection in terms of shelter. How do you address this issue? How do you address? Means are a veritable mix, not exclusively or excluding military, diplomatic, economic means.

We have clearly failed to make any impression on Government of Pakistan. Pakistani Armed Forces have their own agenda. What remains?

I am talking about Pakistanis. As for Kashmiris I think they don't need any kind of military assistance from us, your policies under modi are enough to help them, it would be best for us and them, that we support and raise their pleas diplomatically on all international fora.

The best policy would be for Pakistan to just step back, move away from the issue, focus. like China, on building economy and improving socio-economic progress, the checks and balances that Indian democracy has, will take care of both the kashmir issue and the political narrative in India.

But no sir, weapons need to be provided into valley, money has to be sent, else, how would your forces be able to justify their significance in Pakistani political scene?

If Kashmiris were truly oppressed, you would find that millions can still overthrow any military force. In 30 years it has not happened, one needs to re-asses why.

Cheers