PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[WaqarAhmed161247]

Hi,

There was a desperate time for Rafael & Gripen---they were desperate in getting some sales---.

Gripen & Rafale had to show what their aircraft had---to make their sale---& that is what they did---. They gave 'catchy' names to their EW counter measure suite etc---they gave 'catchy' names to their weapons---they had 'catchy' advertisements about their product---.

There is no doubt that they have an excellent product.

But otoh---china has an excellent product as well---showing in theo weapons---their EW suite and their aircraft---.

Here---Paf had the opportunity to get the Italian radar and EW pkg but chose the chinese over it---. There must be a reason for that---.

Both the chinese and Paf have made the right decision about not disclosing the abilities and capabilities of their machines and EW pkgs---.

Let the enemy wonder what we have---they will find out on day of JUDGEMENT---the day of combat.

GOOOD the word DAY OF JUDGMENT very impressive and depicts full of confidence in chinese equipments.

 

[Horse_Rider]

we are lacking same here with PAC/PAF to market JF-17, i am afraid if for Blk III with such capabilities, will ruin on marketing and advertising slipping the orders away. this plane has potential to get sales.

this is not their job simply because they don't know how to market a product.

my education and work experience with marketing of products in a multinational tells me, it will always be a flop show where ever PAC/PAF market their product.

it is not with some hoardings and an attractive stall with lights to display and few people standing there with flat faces and attitude that repels people instead of attracting them.

it is with personnel standing there, lively, energetic with their body language, way of welcoming guests, presenting the product with "appropriate" details and explanation. above all ready to answer all the questions with information available to them in an impressive way.

when staff says "cheap plane to fly" then later on what ever goodies you put in, you are already failed with first impression.

even i can do better with my experience doing same for years in so many countries, just feed me info.

Marketing is an art! China is NOT good at marketing at all, period. Pakistan is equally not good at marketing defense equipment, second period. Our marketing capability within Pakistan comes from the likes of Nestle / Johnson and Johnson / Zong / Jazz / Pepsi / Coke, etc, historically. China's doesn't do marketing in it's true nature. It's main message is "cheap product manufacturing", vs. the Western alternatives and they give easy profit by targeting vast majorities of lower to middle income population tiers in nations.

When this "cheaper" message is given with defense products a nation wants to defend itself from it's enemies, you won't find buyers. Nations take out loans but won't compromise on defense equipment or their territorial integrity may be at stake.

JFT block III and J-10, both offer great capability. If you put it to nations with large inventories of Mig-21 / 23, older Mig-29's, older F-16's, older Mirages I/III/V, etc. (target market has over 2000 jets globally), it can smoke away the competition.

For this message to be received and sales to be made, Pakistan and China need to distance themselves and their marketing techniques. They need to hire a Western marketing firm, ideally from Italy / EU. Why? Because the countries in our target list majority speak Italian or French as their second language and have good relations with EU than US/UK. Language has a huge role in marketing. Half the sale is connecting with your client in the language they understand! Let these people do the magic and make $$ in commissions. They will sell the same Sino-Pak products as if it was produced by an Asian LM out of Kamra and Shanghai

 

[huanghong]

No tangible data on MTBF, MTBOs. No data on war operations and how quickly aircrafts can be turned around for a sortie. What is their breakdown rate in case of high frequency war time use? The problem I have is everything is mired in obscurity. You say "it is the best!" I say "It is the worst"! My question is how do we determine who is right or wrong? These questions will remain till data emerges either of war time usage, or other parameters from Chinese sources. I am absolutely amazed by the progress made by the Chinese and remain a fan of their products. But verifiable data will not be forth coming from Chinese sources and so we will not know where they or we stand
A

I found some relevant data on WS-10.
With a clear MTBF, is it possible to compare with western engines?

 

[araz]

I found some relevant data on WS-10.
With a clear MTBF, is it possible to compare with western engines?
View attachment 906056

Can you translate it please.
Regards
A

 

[huanghong]

Can you translate it please.
Regards
A

WS-10 Basic Design Index
MTBF 150H
ISFD 0.1/1000EFH
It is a pity that MTBO did not give design indicators

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

 

[Luosifen]

I found some relevant data on WS-10.
With a clear MTBF, is it possible to compare with western engines?
View attachment 906056

That looks like specs of the early prototypes of WS-10 that were made many years ago and long surpassed by current variants. It was indeed bad, but that was the state of Chinese engine tech and development back in the 2000s.

 

[TopGun786]

WS-10 Basic Design Index
MTBF 150H
ISFD 0.1/1000EFH
It is a pity that MTBO did not give design indicators

That is a very old information. Probably of the very first stage of operational development.

 

[tphuang]

Your contact is so enlightening...



Just like there wasn't a need for interior redesign between J-10B to J-10C.



I pointed out that J-10C is more advanced than F-16 C/D in a thread back in March without checking any magazine.

I am also pointing out that F-16V is a massive leap from F-16C/D.

Your claim is bold.

Yes, he would be a guy with access to these data (he is American fwiw). If you look at PLAAF, they don't really put J-10C in front line anymore. But that's purely due to range. I would be absolutely comfortable have J-10Cs along with KJ-500s defending Chinese air space against F-35s.

For the interior redesign, I think it's worth noting that China did the redesign from J-10A to J-10B back in late 2000s. F-16C/D came out in the early 80s. Whatever you think about China, I think it should be obvious that China would've had access to more advanced electronically systems back in mid to late 2000s vs what America had access to back in early 80s. As such, they would be able to design interior of an aircraft that will be able to more closely match the interior subsystems that are currently available. And just as importantly, J-10B itself was a testbed for technologies they eventually put on J-20. Obviously, J-20 came latter and had space/power for more advanced systems. But J-10B itself was quite the upgrade over J-10A.

 

[Ghessan]

Marketing is an art! China is NOT good at marketing at all, period. Pakistan is equally not good at marketing defense equipment, second period. Our marketing capability within Pakistan comes from the likes of Nestle / Johnson and Johnson / Zong / Jazz / Pepsi / Coke, etc, historically. China's doesn't do marketing in it's true nature. It's main message is "cheap product manufacturing", vs. the Western alternatives and they give easy profit by targeting vast majorities of lower to middle income population tiers in nations.

When this "cheaper" message is given with defense products a nation wants to defend itself from it's enemies, you won't find buyers. Nations take out loans but won't compromise on defense equipment or their territorial integrity may be at stake.

JFT block III and J-10, both offers great capability. If you put it to nations with large inventories of Mig-21 / 23, older Mig-29's, older F-16's, older Mirages I/III/V, etc. (target market has over 2000 jets globally), it can smoke away the competition.

For this message to be received and sales to be made, Pakistan and China need to distance themselves and their marketing techniques. They need to hire a Western marketing firm, ideally from Italy / EU. Why? Because the countries in our target list majority speak Italian or French as their second language and have good relations with EU than US/UK. Language has a huge role in marketing. Half the sale is connecting with your client in the language they understand! Let these people do the magic and make $$ in commissions. They will sell the same Sino-Pak products as if it was produced by an Asian LM out of Kamra and Shanghai

if i don't know what marketing is then for years i've been "jhak marta raha hoon". it is those govt institutions with this "my baap" type of attitude, either it is Pakistan or China.

it does not mean they don't have potential in those countries with professionals who can really make a change. China, i have been visiting since more than 2.5 decades now besides Hong Kong and Singapore, seen huge difference over 25 years, changed entirely catching people in Singapore and Hong Kong.

they are really innovative at marketing, advertisement promotions, digital marketing etc. etc. people coming back after studying abroad and even Chinese universities ranking high with students competitive and innovative.

so don't assume whole of China in one direction. and no they do not call it cheap when it comes to defense. isn't it us who when market JF-17 give it such slogans?

of course, there is no bad in hiring people from western agencies. defense industry is a different league but until we do not shed our ego, won't hire some good people/team to work with.

 

[Beast]

Marketing is an art! China is NOT good at marketing at all, period. Pakistan is equally not good at marketing defense equipment, second period. Our marketing capability within Pakistan comes from the likes of Nestle / Johnson and Johnson / Zong / Jazz / Pepsi / Coke, etc, historically. China's doesn't do marketing in it's true nature. It's main message is "cheap product manufacturing", vs. the Western alternatives and they give easy profit by targeting vast majorities of lower to middle income population tiers in nations.

When this "cheaper" message is given with defense products a nation wants to defend itself from it's enemies, you won't find buyers. Nations take out loans but won't compromise on defense equipment or their territorial integrity may be at stake.

JFT block III and J-10, both offers great capability. If you put it to nations with large inventories of Mig-21 / 23, older Mig-29's, older F-16's, older Mirages I/III/V, etc. (target market has over 2000 jets globally), it can smoke away the competition.

For this message to be received and sales to be made, Pakistan and China need to distance themselves and their marketing techniques. They need to hire a Western marketing firm, ideally from Italy / EU. Why? Because the countries in our target list majority speak Italian or French as their second language and have good relations with EU than US/UK. Language has a huge role in marketing. Half the sale is connecting with your client in the language they understand! Let these people do the magic and make $$ in commissions. They will sell the same Sino-Pak products as if it was produced by an Asian LM out of Kamra and Shanghai

Nothing to do with marketing but more to do with politics and whether weapon export is tie to China foreign affairs strategy.

The Soviet export large number of arms to other countries under the Soviet friendship pact with cheap loan or free for alliance.

China has never model after the Soviet strategy as building a bloc and giving large number of arms to nurture alliance is never the strategy of China. China is also wary of exporting it sensitive technology to other countries with exceptional countries like Pakistan, Thailand.

China arms export are still merely based on profits. If China want, China can easily export hundreds of JF-17 to many third world countries without taking profit into consideration as China is flushed with funds. The most recent example will be the Argentina case where procurement of JF-17 seems to have stall and Argentina are trying hard to press down the price further which per unit of USD 55 million for Blk 3 are the limit of China AVIC. China could have easily closed the deal by reducing to USD30 million per pierce at expense of losses but gaining political ground in south America. But China didn't choose the latter.

 

[Horse_Rider]

if i don't know what marketing is then for years i've been "jhak marta raha hoon". it is those govt institutions with this "my baap" type of attitude, either it is Pakistan or China.

it does not mean they don't have potential in those countries with professionals who can really make a change. China, i have been visiting since more than 2.5 decades now besides Hong Kong and Singapore, seen huge difference over 25 years, changed entirely catching people in Singapore and Hong Kong.

they are really innovative at marketing, advertisement promotions, digital marketing etc. etc. people coming back after studying abroad and even Chinese universities ranking high with students competitive and innovative.

so don't assume whole of China in one direction. and no they do not call it cheap when it comes to defense. isn't it us who when market JF-17 give it such slogans?

of course, there is no bad in hiring people from western agencies. defense industry is a different league but until we do not shed our ego, won't hire some good people/team to work with.

I guess I need to explain further and it will be a lecture in a Marketing 501 in some MBA class: Did you know Huawei was the first Telcom to come up with 5G phones about two year ago, before anyone else? Outside of a few, NO! The world doesn't know it. The world doesn't know the Chinese have specialty brands selling for IPhone prices either! Pakistan is essentially a Chinese consumer for about 90% of our product imports, and we probably see just a handful of Chinese products on the media. While we do see American / EU brands, such as Lays, Pepsi, Coke, Cadbury Chocolates (Dairy Milk), Garnier, Loreal, Johnson & Johnson, Nestle, McDonald's, Pizzza Hut, Carrfour, etc.

Marketing medium: There is a language barrier, English is the language of the world, Chinese isn't. Marketing is ONLY done to connect with your customer in the language that they understand "intimately" to make a sale, period. Chinese / Japanese / Taiwanese / Asian traditional marketing focuses on "cultural" aspects. While the West focuses on "user trends" and slices the target audience data in more than 2 dozen ways to effectively connect with all potential users. You know WHO has broken that cultural marketing trend in Asia? The KOREANS!!! They have adopted Western style user driven marketing, check out their brands everywhere including auto brands across the globe including Pakistan. The Middle East generates billions of dollars revenue yearly for Western products, from Cheese, Honey, Construction, Bridge / Roads to Fighter Jets and Tanks! All West with targeted marketing.

There are no Chinese big ticket items (JFT, J-10C, or otherwise) that other nations outside of Pakistan / Bangladesh / Iran and a few others think are "worthy" and "capable" of spending billion $$ on. Is it true? No, I think the Chinese have started to churn out some capable products. Where is the gap? Marketing!

Add "perception" of your target users and TRUST!! "Perception is reality" so barebones: EU / US defense equipment is battle and time tested for now a century (since WWII). So, using that perception, an EU or American team with a few blondes and a few men speaking English educating clients about a defense product (JFT / J-10C) will SURELY bring in more results than another team with a few Chinese females and male doing the same in English. Period. If you'd deny it, I suggest you find employment with an American / EU brand that usually have a multibillion dollar budget (more than Pakistan's total defense budget for big corporations like Apple, IBM, Pepsi, GM, etc) and expand your horizons.

 

[Horse_Rider]

Nothing to do with marketing but more to do with politics and whether weapon export is tie to China foreign affairs strategy.

The Soviet export large number of arms to other countries under the Soviet friendship pact with cheap loan or free for alliance.

China has never model after the Soviet strategy as building a bloc and giving large number of arms to nurture alliance is never the strategy of China. China is also wary of exporting it sensitive technology to other countries with exceptional countries like Pakistan, Thailand.

China arms export are still merely based on profits. If China want, China can easily export hundreds of JF-17 to many third world countries without taking profit into consideration as China is flushed with funds. The most recent example will be the Argentina case where procurement of JF-17 seems to have stall and Argentina are trying hard to press down the price further which per unit of USD 55 million for Blk 3 are the limit of China AVIC. China could have easily closed the deal by reducing to USD30 million per pierce at expense of losses but gaining political ground in south America. But China didn't choose the latter.

I would beg to differ. NO country, business or people in the world would say "NO" to business and $$ money or profit, especially when in large numbers. Argentina is at the same point that I was identifying in a different post with respect to marketing and product trust, they are looking into used options from the West (even had some discussions with the Indians too). The Western options can be refurbished and retro-fitted with advance capability from Israel, if the West doesn't give them all options in their potential upgraded package. Until they have those discussions going, they will sideline the JFT discussion. OR, like you said, you make them so CHEAP that they can't resist (we are back to the magic word CHEAP again sadly). You we need to "untangle" the "cheap" from capable products like the JFT / J-10C. ALL products are designed for exports to make money if you can. You strip out the sensitive technology and downgrade them like the US, French, Brits do, it's a common practice.

Can you imagine Pakistan stopping negotiations for F-16's block 70 with AMRAAM D's if US offered those, and we said "bring the unit cost down from $ 90 million (just example) to $ 55 million because we can buy J-10C / JFT block III for this much? HELL NO! It's a battle tested, time tested platform and it's marketing team lists out it's advanced capability a tier below F-35 (which isn't true but it's marketing and it's still VERY capable). Secondly, comparing to Russia in 2022 doesn't make sense because that was the cold war era with only US- Russia in it.

The world simply doesn't understand the Chinese products "VALUE offering"!! I think right above is another post to review. I think China / Pakistan should hire a team of defense professionals and lobbyists from EU / West (China is doing it on other fronts) and let them market the Chinese products and explain "value offering" with capability to the globe. That would definitely help.

 

[Ghessan]

I guess I need to explain further and it will be a lecture in a Marketing 501 in some MBA class: Did you know Huawei was the first Telcom to come up with 5G phones about two year ago, before anyone else? Outside of a few, NO! The world doesn't know it. The world doesn't know the Chinese have specialty brands selling for IPhone prices either! Pakistan is essentially a Chinese consumer for about 90% of our product imports, and we probably see just a handful of Chinese products on the media. While we do see American / EU brands, such as Lays, Pepsi, Coke, Cadbury Chocolates (Dairy Milk), Garnier, Loreal, Johnson & Johnson, Nestle, McDonald's, Pizzza Hut, Carrfour, etc.

Marketing medium: There is a language barrier, English is the language of the world, Chinese isn't. Marketing is ONLY done to connect with your customer in the language that they understand "intimately" to make a sale, period. Chinese / Japanese / Taiwanese / Asian traditional marketing focuses on "cultural" aspects. While the West focuses on "user trends" and slices the target audience data in more than 2 dozen ways to effectively connect with all potential users. You know WHO has broken that cultural marketing trend in Asia? The KOREANS!!! They have adopted Western style user driven marketing, check out their brands everywhere including auto brands across the globe including Pakistan. The Middle East generates billions of dollars revenue yearly for Western products, from Cheese, Honey, Construction, Bridge / Roads to Fighter Jets and Tanks! All West with targeted marketing.

There are no Chinese big ticket items (JFT, J-10C, or otherwise) that other nations outside of Pakistan / Bangladesh / Iran and a few others think are "worthy" and "capable" of spending billion $$ on. Is it true? No, I think the Chinese have started to churn out some capable products. Where is the gap? Marketing!

Add "perception" of your target users and TRUST!! "Perception is reality" so barebones: EU / US defense equipment is battle and time tested for now a century (since WWII). So, using that perception, an EU or American team with a few blondes and a few men speaking English educating clients about a defense product (JFT / J-10C) will SURELY bring in more results than another team with a few Chinese females and male doing the same in English. Period. If you'd deny it, I suggest you find employment with an American / EU brand that usually have a multibillion dollar budget (more than Pakistan's total defense budget for big corporations like Apple, IBM, Pepsi, GM, etc) and expand your horizons.

you are writing such huge paragraphs, don't you know how to explain in a nutshell? come out of college life and see how it works.

you don't know shit about them, if you ever had some experience meeting them in industry, you would know. you talk about Huawei, learn a bit about it begin from Trump trade war to get yourself enlighten with what and why happened that happened.

you need to visit countries around the world frequently to know them. drain pipe thinking take one no where so get experience with people from around the world.

i don't speak a lot here but give you golden rule: listen if you want to learn instead of just putting mere words here and there. also, respect your domain, do not go out of it, you'll be stoned.

it will give you some knowledge and am not hopeless with you let's see how you grow.

and i leave you at that,

 

[TheSolution]

I guess I need to explain further and it will be a lecture in a Marketing 501 in some MBA class: Did you know Huawei was the first Telcom to come up with 5G phones about two year ago, before anyone else? Outside of a few, NO! The world doesn't know it. The world doesn't know the Chinese have specialty brands selling for IPhone prices either! Pakistan is essentially a Chinese consumer for about 90% of our product imports, and we probably see just a handful of Chinese products on the media. While we do see American / EU brands, such as Lays, Pepsi, Coke, Cadbury Chocolates (Dairy Milk), Garnier, Loreal, Johnson & Johnson, Nestle, McDonald's, Pizzza Hut, Carrfour, etc.

Marketing medium: There is a language barrier, English is the language of the world, Chinese isn't. Marketing is ONLY done to connect with your customer in the language that they understand "intimately" to make a sale, period. Chinese / Japanese / Taiwanese / Asian traditional marketing focuses on "cultural" aspects. While the West focuses on "user trends" and slices the target audience data in more than 2 dozen ways to effectively connect with all potential users. You know WHO has broken that cultural marketing trend in Asia? The KOREANS!!! They have adopted Western style user driven marketing, check out their brands everywhere including auto brands across the globe including Pakistan. The Middle East generates billions of dollars revenue yearly for Western products, from Cheese, Honey, Construction, Bridge / Roads to Fighter Jets and Tanks! All West with targeted marketing.

There are no Chinese big ticket items (JFT, J-10C, or otherwise) that other nations outside of Pakistan / Bangladesh / Iran and a few others think are "worthy" and "capable" of spending billion $$ on. Is it true? No, I think the Chinese have started to churn out some capable products. Where is the gap? Marketing!

Add "perception" of your target users and TRUST!! "Perception is reality" so barebones: EU / US defense equipment is battle and time tested for now a century (since WWII). So, using that perception, an EU or American team with a few blondes and a few men speaking English educating clients about a defense product (JFT / J-10C) will SURELY bring in more results than another team with a few Chinese females and male doing the same in English. Period. If you'd deny it, I suggest you find employment with an American / EU brand that usually have a multibillion dollar budget (more than Pakistan's total defense budget for big corporations like Apple, IBM, Pepsi, GM, etc) and expand your horizons.

China has no issues with marketing, it just has no need for aggressive marketing. It's not competing in a highly competive environment, they target countries who would struggle obtaining similar equipment due to political reasons or price restrictions, removing most other options off the table. And then they approach them with their own offers directly for negotiation.

This doesn't require aggressive public marketing as much.

Once they entire a competitive environment with customers who have a choice for western/Russian aircraft included and don't need to restrict too much on budget, they will show you just how capable they are at marketing. Might be the case for the J-35 if they pitch to the Arabs.