PAF speeds up fighter force modernisation with JF-17 Block III- Gulf News

[White privilege]

5th gen aircraft can never be acquired in hundreds because they are so damn expensive.However PAF's focus should be to make full use of the 5th gen tech to force multiply the effect of our fleet (i.e AESA, 360 degree radar/infrared coverage, sensor fusion, HOBS missiles).

 

[White privilege]

Also PAF needs a true strike aircraft. Not a beefed up tactical fighter that can carry n more missiles, but a true monster,like the B-1 or Tu-160.Such an aircraft would not only deliver a carpet of SOWs but also carry advanced long range air to air missiles in bulk,along with long range AESA, to be the "flagship" of its "Counter Air Battlegroup".

 

[araz]

It's just the reality of Aeroengine Industry. China has thrown a lot of money at it in the past 10 to 15 years and it is still 20 years behind GE, RR and PW. This is an industry that requires continued investment in the billions over many many years. None of the companies will disclose the real secrets that took years to build up. All new entrants need to learn things the hard way. What the Turks are saying is simply not realistic.

Maybe they will be capable of developing a domestic turboshaft that's usable on T-129 in a few years. The entrance barrier for turboshaft is a lot lower than high end turbofan engines. That's what we are talking about here. Advanced turbofan engines for the next generation fighter jet. There are a lot of companies/countries world wide that have tried to get in on aerospace engine and have not gotten close. Building a modern 4th generation fighter jet is a lot easier than building the turbofan engine for it. Building a modern 55h generation fighter jet is easier than building the turbofan engine for it. Both J-20 and Su-57 are still using upgraded versions of engines developed for 4th generation fighter jets. Just think about all the high tech countries like Japan, Korea, Israel, Germany and France. None of them can really compete with PW, RR and GE in this space. Yet, Turkey can do it in a few years.

If we step back from modern aeroengine and just focus on the "easier task" of developing 5th generation aircraft. If Turkey is capable of developing a 5th generation jet, then how come none of the countries it reached out to is interested in joining it?

Turkey Wants Malaysia, Other Muslim Nations, to Joint its TF-X Fifth Generation Fighter Program

State owned defence company Turkish Aerospace Industries has invited Malaysia to joint the TF-X fifth generation fighter program which is currently under development,

militarywatchmagazine.com

This is not just a shot at Turkey. Korea is attempting to do the same. It even managed to sign a deal with Indonesia https://www.defensenews.com/global/...jet-partnership-with-indonesia-falling-apart/. And now Indonesia has basically given up on the project when it invested $10 billion on Rafale/F-15ID over the space of a week. If it's so easy to develop a 4.5 or 5th fighter jet and engine, why do all these countries with money continue to go back to purchasing the latest iteration of Western 4th generation aircraft?

This is really hard and it takes many years of heavy investment. Don't underestimate how much progress China has made to get to where it is now.

Thank you for a detailed response. I guess we will ha e to wait-and see where the Turks are in 6-8 years.
Regards
A

 

[Falconless]

Also PAF needs a true strike aircraft. Not a beefed up tactical fighter that can carry n more missiles, but a true monster,like the B-1 or Tu-160.Such an aircraft would not only deliver a carpet of SOWs but also carry advanced long range air to air missiles in bulk,along with long range AESA, to be the "flagship" of its "Counter Air Battlegroup".

India isn’t 14 hours away.

 

[White privilege]

India isn’t 14 hours away.

Yes...but its many hours deep and more patrol time is never bad.

 

[Scorpiooo]

Any attack helicopters in PAF plan like IAF have

 

[Falconless]

Yes...but its many hours deep and more patrol time is never bad.

The more you stay the higher risk you get shot down.

 

[Indos]

It's just the reality of Aeroengine Industry. China has thrown a lot of money at it in the past 10 to 15 years and it is still 20 years behind GE, RR and PW. This is an industry that requires continued investment in the billions over many many years. None of the companies will disclose the real secrets that took years to build up. All new entrants need to learn things the hard way. What the Turks are saying is simply not realistic.

Maybe they will be capable of developing a domestic turboshaft that's usable on T-129 in a few years. The entrance barrier for turboshaft is a lot lower than high end turbofan engines. That's what we are talking about here. Advanced turbofan engines for the next generation fighter jet. There are a lot of companies/countries world wide that have tried to get in on aerospace engine and have not gotten close. Building a modern 4th generation fighter jet is a lot easier than building the turbofan engine for it. Building a modern 55h generation fighter jet is easier than building the turbofan engine for it. Both J-20 and Su-57 are still using upgraded versions of engines developed for 4th generation fighter jets. Just think about all the high tech countries like Japan, Korea, Israel, Germany and France. None of them can really compete with PW, RR and GE in this space. Yet, Turkey can do it in a few years.

If we step back from modern aeroengine and just focus on the "easier task" of developing 5th generation aircraft. If Turkey is capable of developing a 5th generation jet, then how come none of the countries it reached out to is interested in joining it?

Turkey Wants Malaysia, Other Muslim Nations, to Joint its TF-X Fifth Generation Fighter Program

State owned defence company Turkish Aerospace Industries has invited Malaysia to joint the TF-X fifth generation fighter program which is currently under development,

militarywatchmagazine.com

This is not just a shot at Turkey. Korea is attempting to do the same. It even managed to sign a deal with Indonesia https://www.defensenews.com/global/...jet-partnership-with-indonesia-falling-apart/. And now Indonesia has basically given up on the project when it invested $10 billion on Rafale/F-15ID over the space of a week. If it's so easy to develop a 4.5 or 5th fighter jet and engine, why do all these countries with money continue to go back to purchasing the latest iteration of Western 4th generation aircraft?

This is really hard and it takes many years of heavy investment. Don't underestimate how much progress China has made to get to where it is now.

I know some people, including Westerners wants SK-Indonesia KF21/IFX to fail.

Those Westerners journalist are cluelest about Indonesia. I have explain a lot about the matter, but people like you of course want to believe on news that is accordance on his / her wish

 

[Indos]

Go to KF21/IFX thread to understand about KF21/IFX program. Need to understand that some faction in Indonesia doesnt like the program due to difficult to get kick back by buying product from our own state owned companies, but seem now the faction who wants to continue has won.

Just LOL when I see someone said Indonesia Aerospace cannot make parts, even current KF21 prototypes use parts produced in Indonesia. There is Indonesian Aerospace document I posted in KF21/IFX thread already talking about that

About Rafale deal, I have explained a lot here, if you can understand Indonesian language, I have posted Youtube link of Mindef and Mindef spokeperson statement and explanation on the deal in Indonesia Defense Forum.

F15EX is just a wishlist, not actual contract, without financial backing, it cannot be passed, similar like previous bombastic news about Indonesia wants to order 32 F16 V and 22 Osprey Heli

 

[satyamev]

It's just the reality of Aeroengine Industry. China has thrown a lot of money at it in the past 10 to 15 years and it is still 20 years behind GE, RR and PW. This is an industry that requires continued investment in the billions over many many years. None of the companies will disclose the real secrets that took years to build up. All new entrants need to learn things the hard way. What the Turks are saying is simply not realistic.

Maybe they will be capable of developing a domestic turboshaft that's usable on T-129 in a few years. The entrance barrier for turboshaft is a lot lower than high end turbofan engines. That's what we are talking about here. Advanced turbofan engines for the next generation fighter jet. There are a lot of companies/countries world wide that have tried to get in on aerospace engine and have not gotten close. Building a modern 4th generation fighter jet is a lot easier than building the turbofan engine for it. Building a modern 55h generation fighter jet is easier than building the turbofan engine for it. Both J-20 and Su-57 are still using upgraded versions of engines developed for 4th generation fighter jets. Just think about all the high tech countries like Japan, Korea, Israel, Germany and France. None of them can really compete with PW, RR and GE in this space. Yet, Turkey can do it in a few years.

If we step back from modern aeroengine and just focus on the "easier task" of developing 5th generation aircraft. If Turkey is capable of developing a 5th generation jet, then how come none of the countries it reached out to is interested in joining it?

Turkey Wants Malaysia, Other Muslim Nations, to Joint its TF-X Fifth Generation Fighter Program

State owned defence company Turkish Aerospace Industries has invited Malaysia to joint the TF-X fifth generation fighter program which is currently under development,

militarywatchmagazine.com

This is not just a shot at Turkey. Korea is attempting to do the same. It even managed to sign a deal with Indonesia https://www.defensenews.com/global/...jet-partnership-with-indonesia-falling-apart/. And now Indonesia has basically given up on the project when it invested $10 billion on Rafale/F-15ID over the space of a week. If it's so easy to develop a 4.5 or 5th fighter jet and engine, why do all these countries with money continue to go back to purchasing the latest iteration of Western 4th generation aircraft?

This is really hard and it takes many years of heavy investment. Don't underestimate how much progress China has made to get to where it is now.

yup. Modern jet engine manufacturing is the pinnacle of modern engineering.
Even the established manufacturers face issues when trying to optimize new engines , like the PW engine gearbox issue in the Airbus 320 neo. 100s of incidents in the plane.
What's your assessment of snecma France as a engine manufacturer ?

 

[satyamev]

J31/35 is a PLAN project, not a PLAAF project, this means that it will first develop naval models. Therefore, we cannot predict when the J31/35 air force model will mature, nor can we predict when India will acquire 5G fighters. It would be unwise for Pakistan to place all its hopes on J31/35. Pakistan&Turkey should consider introducing new partners for AZM projects, such as Saudi Arabia, Indonesia and other countries.

India won't acquire stealth 5th Gen planes for the next 2 decades , atleast.
Because usa won't sell them to india as we are considered too independent in our foreign policy (s400).
Russians are going nowhere with their stealth plane.
I see us inducting more rafales , unless France suddenly emerges with a stealth plane which its willing to sell ?
So a lot of maybes.
Our indigenous aviation industry will go nowhere under HAL.
It has to be privatised for India to truly enter aviation manufacturing as a serious player.

 

[MH.Yang]

India won't acquire stealth 5th Gen planes for the next 2 decades , atleast.
Because usa won't sell them to india as we are considered too independent in our foreign policy (s400).
Russians are going nowhere with their stealth plane.
I see us inducting more rafales , unless France suddenly emerges with a stealth plane which its willing to sell ?
So a lot of maybes.
Our indigenous aviation industry will go nowhere under HAL.
It has to be privatised for India to truly enter aviation manufacturing as a serious player.

I have replied to my views on AZM project.
Now I'll copy it again:

1. Pakistan should not give up the AZM project. Even if the project fails like tejas, it should persist. Because the process of studying it will bring Pakistan an industrial upgrading, not just an 5G fighter.

2. If Pakistan is too early get 5G fighters is likely to lead the USA to sell F35 to India and further deepen the relationship between the USA and India. The most appropriate time for Pakistan to get 5G fighter is a month after India obtains 5G fighter.

3. Pakistan should invite as many cooperative countries as possible, and to raise as much investment as possible for this project.

4. Pakistan should not fantasize that it can successfully develop a 5G fighter alone or only in cooperation with Turkey. Only five countries in the world can 100% use their own technology to manufacture 4G fighters, and only three countries can 100% use their own technology to manufacture 5G fighters. Frankly face your lack of ability, it is not inferiority, but self-confidence.

5. During the research of AZM project, Pakistan should establish as many relevant industries and factories as possible to obtain as much technology as possible.

6. Pakistan should not be too eager to expect the success of the project. What Pakistan needs is the process, not the result.

7. Pakistan studies the AZM project, but it may not only be equipped with a kind 5G fighter, or even not equipped the AZM fighter. So there is no need to care too much about the progress of India's 5G fighter.

 

[satyamev]

I have replied to my views on AZM project.
Now I'll copy it again:

1. Pakistan should not give up the AZM project. Even if the project fails like tejas, it should persist. Because the process of studying it will bring Pakistan an industrial upgrading, not just an 5G fighter.

2. If Pakistan is too early get 5G fighters is likely to lead the USA to sell F35 to India and further deepen the relationship between the USA and India. The most appropriate time for Pakistan to get 5G fighter is a month after India obtains 5G fighter.

3. Pakistan should invite as many cooperative countries as possible, and to raise as much investment as possible for this project.

4. Pakistan should not fantasize that it can successfully develop a 5G fighter alone or only in cooperation with Turkey. Only five countries in the world can 100% use their own technology to manufacture 4G fighters, and only three countries can 100% use their own technology to manufacture 5G fighters. Frankly face your lack of ability, it is not inferiority, but self-confidence.

5. During the research of AZM project, Pakistan should establish as many relevant industries and factories as possible to obtain as much technology as possible.

6. Pakistan should not be too eager to expect the success of the project. What Pakistan needs is the process, not the result.

7. Pakistan studies the AZM project, but it may not only be equipped with a kind 5G fighter, or even not equipped the AZM fighter. So there is no need to care too much about the progress of India's 5G fighter.

Not putting Pakistan down but do you consider India and Pakistan to be at the same stage of industrialization ?
A modern jet is a accumulation of metals , metallurgy , electronic hardware and software. Plus design capabilities and testing facilities.
India had to send its kaveri engine to russia for testing as we don't have the platform to test it.
You are expecting Pakistan to leapfrog to the forefront of industrial development.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

I have replied to my views on AZM project.
Now I'll copy it again:

1. Pakistan should not give up the AZM project. Even if the project fails like tejas, it should persist. Because the process of studying it will bring Pakistan an industrial upgrading, not just an 5G fighter.

2. If Pakistan is too early get 5G fighters is likely to lead the USA to sell F35 to India and further deepen the relationship between the USA and India. The most appropriate time for Pakistan to get 5G fighter is a month after India obtains 5G fighter.

3. Pakistan should invite as many cooperative countries as possible, and to raise as much investment as possible for this project.

4. Pakistan should not fantasize that it can successfully develop a 5G fighter alone or only in cooperation with Turkey. Only five countries in the world can 100% use their own technology to manufacture 4G fighters, and only three countries can 100% use their own technology to manufacture 5G fighters. Frankly face your lack of ability, it is not inferiority, but self-confidence.

5. During the research of AZM project, Pakistan should establish as many relevant industries and factories as possible to obtain as much technology as possible.

6. Pakistan should not be too eager to expect the success of the project. What Pakistan needs is the process, not the result.

7. Pakistan studies the AZM project, but it may not only be equipped with a kind 5G fighter, or even not equipped the AZM fighter. So there is no need to care too much about the progress of India's 5G fighter.

PAF cheif has already said that Pakistan will get 5th gen fighter aircraft until 2047.

We are collaborating with another country for NGFA.

What you have suggested is true only for rich countries.Pakistan can not afford to continue a failed project because of shortage of resources.

So our only option is to collaborate with another country for NGFA and continue to indiginize JF 17 avionics and weapons as much as possible.

 

[MH.Yang]

Not putting Pakistan down but do you consider India and Pakistan to be at the same stage of industrialization ?
A modern jet is a accumulation of metals , metallurgy , electronic hardware and software. Plus design capabilities and testing facilities.
India had to send its kaveri engine to russia for testing as we don't have the platform to test it.
You are expecting Pakistan to leapfrog to the forefront of industrial development.

It is unfair to compare the industrial capacity of India and Pakistan.
India is a country with a population of 1.4 billion, you should compare your industrial capacity with China.

PAF cheif has already said that Pakistan will get 5th gen fighter aircraft until 2047.

We are collaborating with another country for NGFA.

What you have suggested is true only for rich countries.Pakistan can not afford to continue a failed project because of shortage of resources.

So our only option is to collaborate with another country for NGFA and continue to indiginize JF 17 avionics and weapons as much as possible.

You should see the benefits of this project for the overall technological upgrading of Pakistan.