Iran Kowsar Jet Surprise (production line)

[VEVAK]

I wonder if airframes are truly brand new built from scratch or if they are cannibalizing old F-5 airframes.

This Airframe like that and like the one used on the F-5 uses less Titanium than any other Supersonic fighter produced in the past 40 years so unlike Fighters like the F-14 and F-15 that required far more advanced tools and composites there is really nothing that special about this Airframe for Iran not to be able to produce them and feel the need to use +50 year old Airframes in their construction and after 50 years and an 8 year long war most of those Airframes have already lost structural integrity and have hairline crack plus the technology needed to repair such hairline cracks of that grade aluminum alloy to a point where they like new and be flightworthy would require far more advanced tech than being able to produce the Airframe which would automatically mean Iran has the technology to produce them anyways
This is not a car where you can simply patch it up, its a fighter that has to fly at high altitude at supersonic speeds and hairline crack even ground much slower passenger Aircraft not to mention that producing the airframe would be far faster then trying to repair large number of grounded Iranian F-5's

 

[T-72B]

First Kowsar officially delivered to airforce:

Defense minister stated that working on the next generations of this platform will continue for 10 to 20 years.

Okay wtf so the IRIAF will keep working other more advance fighter but still base on a f**king
F-5 airframe?? Lol

 

[VEVAK]

It will take too much time. Decades and Decades... IR have no possibility for cooperation, to limit/shorten their design/production knowledge.
They really need to get a boost from someone, otherwise it's useless in modern warfare if a War/Conflict happen in the coming Decade.

There is a reason why IR choose the F-5 to reverse engineer... While having F-14's and MiG29's and Su's in their inventory...it's because those aircraft are too complicated with their current engineer pool.

The development of tools and infrastructure for such fighters is what takes decades and decades NOT Iranian engineering capability!

The reason Iran didn't choose a Fighter like the F-14 to reverse engineer is simple

F-5's Ti requirement is only 1000lb vs fighter like the F-15 & F-14 that require over 40,000lb of titanium (And that's not including the engine)
Hell producing the engines of fighters like the F-14 and F-15 alone require 10 times as much titanium than the F-5 Airframe and Engine combined

Countries like Turkey can simply import Titanium where as Iran due to sanctions has been prohibited from buying Titanium and other strategic alloy so Iran would have to produce Titanium at an industrial scale to not only meet the countries need but also have extra to put toward production of fighters like F-14

Also the F-14's high maintenance requirements makes if a fighter not worth producing and Iran has already reverse engineered the F-4 but being able to reverse engineer something vs having the infrastructure required to produce it are two very different things

Also Iranian F-14's & MiG-29's didn't come with MFD's, digitized cockpits, advanced avionics & an internal navigation system which make the avionics and cockpit of this aircraft far more sophisticated than any fighter Iran had in it's fleet to reverse engineer in terms of engineering which again take us back to the Airframe and Engine and since Iran can't simply purchase the raw materials needed to build better engines and airframes it takes time to develop the infrastructure needed to produce those alloys and composites domestically and that's what takes decades NOT Iranian engineer pool

 

[HannibalBarca]

The development of tools and infrastructure for such fighters is what takes decades and decades NOT Iranian engineering capability!

The reason Iran didn't choose a Fighter like the F-14 to reverse engineer is simple

View attachment 513057

F-5's Ti requirement is only 1000lb vs fighter like the F-15 & F-14 that require over 40,000lb of titanium (And that's not including the engine)
Hell producing the engines of fighters like the F-14 and F-15 alone require 10 times as much titanium than the F-5 Airframe and Engine combined

Countries like Turkey can simply import Titanium where as Iran due to sanctions has been prohibited from buying Titanium and other strategic alloy so Iran would have to produce Titanium at an industrial scale to not only meet the countries need but also have extra to put toward production of fighters like F-14

Also the F-14's high maintenance requirements makes if a fighter not worth producing and Iran has already reverse engineered the F-4 but being able to reverse engineer something vs having the infrastructure required to produce it are two very different things

Also Iranian F-14's & MiG-29's didn't come with MFD's, digitized cockpits, advanced avionics & an internal navigation system which make the avionics and cockpit of this aircraft far more sophisticated than any fighter Iran had in it's fleet to reverse engineer in terms of engineering which again take us back to the Airframe and Engine and since Iran can't simply purchase the raw materials needed to build better engines and airframes it takes time to develop the infrastructure needed to produce those alloys and composites domestically and that's what takes decades NOT Iranian engineer pool

You know it' snot about "Titanium"... IR could have choose something else to reverse engineer instead of F-5... Migs or Su's... no need for F-14.
What you speak about is "Industrialization complex"... that ofc play a role... But that comes AFTER the research...not a condition for one...

So, Yes IR Engineer pool related to such department is limited. Research wise or not.

Mastering the manufacturing process of X or Y engine is a necessity never a liability...so putting "such" condition as Titanium as the sole "escuse" for not researching about it is just... ridicule.
So because Titanium is lacking for mass production..Let's not research/reverse engineer it... I hope you see the "Paradox" in it.

 

[zectech]

You can fit a lot of electronics but the plane would be always limited the the airframe. The F5 is a 50 year old design and in today's battlefield it is outdated. Sooner or later IRIAF needs to get rrid of this.

If Iran sports 4.5 gen avionics and radar, with long range missiles... it will kill F-16s even though it looks like a F-5. Though these are being produced to be close air support. Close air support are not that good, look at the SU-25s, will they hold up to F-16s? They are not meant to hold their own. Probably why Iran started with close air support fighters, so they will be in use for 40 years.

If these can carry anti-ship missiles, Iran has a jewel for 40 years. (Iran can still develop UAV to carry anti-ship missiles.) If not they will still be used to ward off ground attacks and bring the battle to any nearby enemy. For this reason Syria has shown interest.

 

[delta2]

When it comes to war, even 1000 of these jets won't make a difference. In order to have a credible defence Iran needs to test a nuke.

The US has been threatening Iran since ages, they have loaded 100s of nukes at their outpost in Israel, yet Iran hasn't gone nuclear yet. Either all of this animosity is a dog & pony show or Iran actually does have cold tested nukes. Either way their strategy makes no sense.

It still is a big feat!

 

[TheImmortal]

It will take too much time. Decades and Decades... IR have no possibility for cooperation, to limit/shorten their design/production knowledge.
They really need to get a boost from someone, otherwise it's useless in modern warfare if a War/Conflict happen in the coming Decade.

There is a reason why IR choose the F-5 to reverse engineer... While having F-14's and MiG29's and Su's in their inventory...it's because those aircraft are too complicated with their current engineer pool.

“Too complicated” is a joke.

You don’t gain the knowledge to build pinpoint accurate BMs or indigenous centrifuge designs or a nuclear facility in a mountain or a plutonium reactor....and then get stumped by a 1970’s fighter jet.

The real reason is EXACTLY what Iran said....protection AT COST.

*F-5 provides protection AT COST

*Iran’s pilots LOVE F-5 over MIG and SU

*F-5 is cheap and easy to build

Iran’s Air Force simply hasn’t been allocated billions to build a true fighter jet!

They have strict budget restrictions.

Iran determined a nuclear program was of national security and spent 100 billion to make it happen.

Iran is giving the Air Force a short leash. Until it can prove itself that it is capable of building a major platform.

Now that doesn’t mean Iran doesn’t have prototype projects going on as it is much easier for Iran to create 2 or 3 prototype fighter jets to demonstrate feasibility. But they aren’t just gonna throw billions at the Air Force and hope for the best.

 

[Aramagedon]

A “Tunesian” talks about IRAN ... I can’t get it but it’s funny

 

[VEVAK]

Okay wtf so the IRIAF will keep working other more advance fighter but still base on a f**king
F-5 airframe?? Lol

You know it' snot about "Titanium"... IR could have choose something else to reverse engineer instead of F-5... Migs or Su's... no need for F-14.
What you speak about is "Industrialization complex"... that ofc play a role... But that comes AFTER the research...not a condition for one...

So, Yes IR Engineer pool related to such department is limited. Research wise or not.

Mastering the manufacturing process of X or Y engine is a necessity never a liability...so putting "such" condition as Titanium as the sole "escuse" for not researching about it is just... ridicule.
So because Titanium is lacking for mass production..Let's not research/reverse engineer it... I hope you see the "Paradox" in it.

YOU Don't know what your talking about!

What does research have to do with production? Su-30's and MiG's also require large amount of Titanium and since Iran actually has relations with Russia the reverse engineering of any Russian Fighter would not be publicized nor even made public without Russian approval before starting such a project....

If you understood anything about fighters you would of understood that Iran would NOT have been able to keep a single F-14 flying after 40 years of sanctions and some 20 years since the U.S. shredded it's F-14 without Iran being able to manufacture large number of it's parts and components including parts of the engines and Airframes
but still doesn't mean Iran was capable of manufacture something like an F-14 Titanium Bulkhead

And YES Titanium is a MAJOR factor for Iran take a look

https://www.un.org/press/en/2015/sc12163.doc.htm

As for Iranian Titanium production facility Iran had plans to start it's 1st Titanium production facility in mid 2017 and that's only for producing titanium dioxide concentrate and titanium dioxide slag and there would still need to be investment in new facilities for the production of higher grade Ti composite alloy used in manufacturing fighter Airframe that required 40,000 lb of Ti for their Air Frame and over 14,000lb of Titanium for both of their engines
https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2016/09/17/485086/Iran-minerals-titanium-production-investment


So yea Titanium was a major Hurdle for Iran that Iran has only recently been trying to address and Sanctions prohibit the sale of Ti to Iran!

As for Iran's engineering pol Iran has been THE FASTEST GROWING country in Science and Technology in the past 30 years! FEEL FREE to GOOGLE IT!
Maybe your confusing Iran with your own country!

 

[HannibalBarca]

YOU Don't know what your talking about!

What does research have to do with production? Su-30's and MiG's also require large amount of Titanium and since Iran actually has relations with Russia the reverse engineering of any Russian Fighter would not be publicized nor even made public without Russian approval before starting such a project....

If you understood anything about fighters you of understood that Iran would NOT have been able to keep a single F-14 flying after 40 years of sanctions and some 20 years since the U.S. shredded it's F-14 without Iran being able to manufacture large number of it's parts and components including parts of the engines and Airframes
but still doesn't mean Iran was capable of manufacture something like an F-14 Titanium Bulkhead

And YES Titanium is a MAJOR factor for Iran take a look

https://www.un.org/press/en/2015/sc12163.doc.htm

As for Iranian Titanium production facility Iran had plans to start it's 1st Titanium production facility in mid 2017 and that's only for producing titanium dioxide concentrate and titanium dioxide slag and there would still need to be investment in new facilities for the production of higher grade Ti composite alloy used in manufacturing fighter Airframe that required 40,000 lb of Ti for their Air Frame and over 14,000lb of Titanium for both of their engines
https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2016/09/17/485086/Iran-minerals-titanium-production-investment


So yea Titanium was a major Hurdle for Iran that Iran has only recently been trying to address and Sanctions prohibit the sale of Ti to Iran!

Let's agree to disagree.

 

[Kompromat]

Good effort Iran.

 

[VEVAK]

Let's agree to disagree.

What's there to disagree on?

You disagree that UN sanctions prohibit the Sale of Ti to Iran?

You disagree that Iran only started producing titanium dioxide concentrate and titanium dioxide slag less than a year a ago?

I've provided links from UN and PressTV

And what do you have to base your nonsense on? NOTHING but jealousy! LOL!
As for Iran's engineering pol Iran has been THE FASTEST GROWING country in Science and Technology in the past 30 years! FEEL FREE to GOOGLE IT!
Maybe your confusing Iran with your own country!

 

[HannibalBarca]

What's there to disagree on?

You disagree that UN sanctions prohibit the Sale of Ti to Iran?

You disagree that Iran only started producing titanium dioxide concentrate and titanium dioxide slag less than a year a ago?

I've provided links from UN and PressTV

And what do you have to base your nonsense on? NOTHING but jealousy! LOL!
As for Iran's engineering pol Iran has been THE FASTEST GROWING country in Science and Technology in the past 30 years! FEEL FREE to GOOGLE IT!
Maybe your confusing Iran with your own country!

Keep the Caps down... And keep you "Pulsion" down too...
If you need to put your nerve somewhere then find another guy for it, Understood?

But Let's End it here, one and for all.
My Opinion: Lack of Ti isn't why IR don't research/reverse engineer other sys... Simple as that.

If you wish to believe so little of your country then so be it... it ain't my biz...

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Once a missile strikes any plane does not matter Titanium it goes down

 

[VEVAK]

Once a missile strikes any plane does not matter Titanium it goes down

Titanium has to do with weight reduction, structural integrity, max G force, life span of the Airframe & reduced maintenance required of the Airframe and temperature and friction in high heat areas like the leading edge of the wings and other high friction area's of a supersonic fighter....

And no most SAM's in the world and most Air to Air missiles in the world do NOT have a one shot one kill ratio against heavier fighters and fighter are capable of conducting countermeasures from countermeasure maneuvers to deploying Chaff and flairs so yea you need a structure that can protect it's self from shrapnel coming at it against missile that don't get a direct hit but that's simply not the reason why Ti is a requirement in a supersonic fighter jet.