Gujarat Riots 2002

[Joe Shearer]

I don't see what happened in Gujrat as state only issue but country, as a whole, its establishment involved as well. Considering how hindu terrorist organization RSS is penetrated into the armed forces of India, anything is possible.

Noted.

 

[padamchen]

Nobody.

Exactly.

By including them you ensured you would never be heard by any government that did not have the overpowering urge for political suicide.

And you pissed off/shocked EVERY Indian here that day.

Remember that environment in those days. The global chest beating. The internet in flames. Millions of terabytes of data flowing.

And here was a highly respected very senior INDIAN who was putting up a draft on PAKISTAN Defence Forum calling a terrorist a freedom fighter.

Cheers, Doc

 

[M. Sarmad]

Who are Pakistanis in Kashmir?

Nobody.

FACT:

The UN recognizes Kashmir as a Disputed Territory (and not as an Integral part of India) whose final accession to India or Pakistan is yet to be decided in accordance with the will of people of Kashmir.

The accession of Kashmir has been placed before the UN Security Council for arranging ratification or otherwise by the people of the State under the auspices of the United Nations. Therefore, the arrangement caused through the accession of 26 October 1947 has been taken over by the interests of 195 countries of the UN (including Pakistan as a member nation of UN and as a party). Pakistan as a party to the dispute administers two administrations of the State on its side of the ceasefire line

 

[Joe Shearer]

Exactly.

By including them you ensured you would never be heard by any government that did not have the overpowering urge for political suicide.

And, of course, the alternative, to act with a strong hand, has had such incredibly good results, Doc? You are referring to the massive downturn in incidents of violence, to the growing detachment of the hitherto disengaged Kashmiri from the ranks of the militants, to the strict isolation of the scenes of conflict by the civilian population?

And you pissed off/shocked EVERY Indian here that day.

I agree that the Indians here are a representative sample of the Indians here, and I understand that I forfeited my chances of a Rajya Sabha seat or the position of anchor presently occupied by Arnab Goswami.

Your arguments are powerful.

Remember that environment in those days. The global chest beating. The internet in flames. Millions of terabytes of data flowing.

Yes, I do remember. That is precisely why I sought to march to a different drummer. Do I need to say in detail that I despise doing the wrong thing simply because a hundred fools are doing it?

And here was a highly respected very senior INDIAN who was putting up a draft on PAKISTAN Defence Forum calling a terrorist a freedom fighter.

What should I have done? Let me guess.

1. Left the whole mess alone; after all, as some politicians had already said at that time, Indian politicians, at a national level, the services were getting paid to put their lives at risk, what was the big deal? Let them sort it out;
2. Pitched in, but ensuring sufficient personal safety; joined the pack of jackals and howled at the Moon. Failed to say the difficult thing, failed to try to get the problem broken down into its components and get resolution through that inclusive method, failed to join the position that saw a bullet being the final arbiter, failed to back the monkey tricks of that idiot who tied an innocent passer-by to his jeep and rescued his besieged men, - where do you want to stop?
3. Done what I did, but insisted that the reluctant Pakistani gentlemen state that these were terrorists. That, of course, would have flown like a lead balloon, but would have pleased those clowns who felt that any conversation, any attempt at reasoning things out is an admission of erectile dysfunction.

Which one is your favourite, Doc? Apart from holding aloof, that was the classic stance of bhakts, when they were not spouting Billingsgate?

Cheers, Doc

Nothing personal, Doc, I understand your thinking processes - not your thinking, the process - all too well. And still call you a friend, with your permission, of course.

FACT:

The UN recognizes Kashmir as a Disputed Territory (and not as an Integral part of India) whose final accession to India or Pakistan is yet to be decided in accordance with the will of people of Kashmir.

The accession of Kashmir has been placed before the UN Security Council for arranging ratification or otherwise by the people of the State under the auspices of the United Nations. Therefore, the arrangement caused through the accession of 26 October 1947 has been taken over by the interests of 195 countries of the UN (including Pakistan as a member nation of UN and as a party). Pakistan as a party to the dispute administers two administrations of the State on its side of the ceasefire line

Read on, Sir.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Read on, Sir.

Do you deny the FACT I presented, sir?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Do you deny the FACT I presented, sir?

I neither deny nor affirm it, so that the central point remains at the centre of attention, the point that an approach that is promising, that is in the interests of the Kashmiris themselves, is being neglected by a ham-handed policy.

I was accused by Doc of loving Kashmir and the Kashmiris. Not guilty to the first - I've already been to Switzerland, and the Julian Alps - guilty to the second. They come first, not jingo pride of either major nation.

That may be right or wrong, it happens to be my definitive position.

 

[M. Sarmad]

I was accused by Doc of loving Kashmir and the Kashmiris. Not guilty to the first - I've already been to Switzerland, and the Julian Alps - guilty to the second. They come first, not jingo pride of either major nation.

We need more people like you,
on both sides of the border of course

 

[padamchen]

Nothing personal, Doc, I understand your thinking processes - not your thinking, the process - all too well. And still call you a friend, with your permission, of course.

I'll disengage now sir, with or without your permission.

You are someone with a brilliant intellect. And you've served your country with honor.

I am no one to judge you. Simply speaking, its not my paygrade.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Joe Shearer]

I'll disengage now sir, with or without your permission.

You are someone with a brilliant intellect. And you've served your country with honor.

I am no one to judge you. Simply speaking, its not my paygrade.

Cheers, Doc

Friends have paygrades? Oh shit, now you tell me.

 

[padamchen]

They come first, not jingo pride of either major nation.

That may be right or wrong, it happens to be my definitive position.

So where was I wrong?

The above sir is a conflict of interest for most of us.

What you call "jingo pride" is what young men are dying for there.

What you call "jingo pride" is our rightful soil.

What you call "jingo pride" is what we are sworn to protect ... the integrity of our nation.

If Kashmiris come first, and Kashmiris do not want to be with India (hypothetically .... even if you believe the opposite), then where do you stand?

Cheers, Doc

Friends have paygrades? Oh shit, now you tell me.

Definitely when there's 20 years separating them.

In the fauj we call it not taking liberties unless given.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Joe Shearer]

We need more people like you,
on both sides of the border of course

Thank you.

I am afraid to read messages from my Kashmiri friends any more. They are gut-wrenching; knowing them, and their political sterility, makes it extremely painful to read what they write about the current situation.

Can any man sit idle?

PS: In case you are wondering, all I can do, helpless individual that I am, is to try and place some of them in jobs in south India, others, still students, places in educational institutions in south India.

So where was I wrong?

Wrong in thinking that the situation has improved now that 56" has decided to put the boot in. Every parameter has worsened. We need to talk to the kids, the ones not bearing guns, for those it is too late, but to all who are not yet bearing guns. We need to follow up the talk with action; there has been NONE these past years since the ape took over.

The above sir is a conflict of interest for most of us.

What you call "jingo pride" is what young men are dying for there.

What you call "jingo pride" is our rightful soil.

What you call "jingo pride" is what we are sworn to protect ... the integrity of our nation.

There is no conflict of interest, there is only a very short-sighted jingoism - and yes, the word 'jingoism' is the right word. It is unfounded in nationhood, it is founded in populist politics. Let us take your points one at a time:

1. Young men are not dying for jingoism, they are dying because some insecure politicians want to show that they have the balls to be tough. It has backfired EVERYWHERE, every single sphere of activity, most especially in the current policy of getting tough with Kashmir; there was no sense to it, when a little rational thought could have won over the politicians, assuaged the fury of the population, and stopped the bloodshed. When you talk of young men dying, I am forced to point out that, contrary to yesteryear, it is not young men from Muridke dying, it is young Indian citizens, dying at each other's hands.
2. Yes, it is our rightful soil. If you are talking about Ladakh, the Vale and Jammu, it is our rightful soil. If you are talking about west Jammu, that the Pakistanis call Azad Kashmir, it is NOT our rightful soil; if you are talking about Gilgit (not including Baltistan), it is NOT our rightful soil. But did you think that it was unconditionally so? Why have we betrayed every promise, every constitutional provision that was made to the people and the leadership of Kashmir? Rights come with responsibilities, and we need to ask ourselves if we have fulfilled our own obligations.
   
3. If we are sworn to protect the integrity of our nation, why are we killing our citizens? BE CAREFUL HOW YOU ANSWER THIS, DOC; ASK NOT FOR WHOM THE BELL TOLLS, IT TOLLS FOR THEE.

If Kashmiris come first, and Kashmiris do not want to be with India (hypothetically .... even if you believe the opposite), then where do you stand?

If pigs had wings, they would not figure in the arguments of pig-wrestlers.

Cheers, Doc

Definitely when there's 20 years separating them.

In the fauj we call it not taking liberties unless given.

Cheers, Doc

<sigh>
As you wish, Doc.

 

[padamchen]

Thank you.

I am afraid to read messages from my Kashmiri friends any more. They are gut-wrenching; knowing them, and their political sterility, makes it extremely painful to read what they write about the current situation.

Can any man sit idle?

PS: In case you are wondering, all I can do, helpless individual that I am, is to try and place some of them in jobs in south India, others, still students, places in educational institutions in south India.

Wrong in thinking that the situation has improved now that 56" has decided to put the boot in. Every parameter has worsened. We need to talk to the kids, the ones not bearing guns, for those it is too late, but to all who are not yet bearing guns. We need to follow up the talk with action; there has been NONE these past years since the ape took over.

There is no conflict of interest, there is only a very short-sighted jingoism - and yes, the word 'jingoism' is the right word. It is unfounded in nationhood, it is founded in populist politics. Let us take your points one at a time:

1. Young men are not dying for jingoism, they are dying because some insecure politicians want to show that they have the balls to be tough. It has backfired EVERYWHERE, every single sphere of activity, most especially in the current policy of getting tough with Kashmir; there was no sense to it, when a little rational thought could have won over the politicians, assuaged the fury of the population, and stopped the bloodshed. When you talk of young men dying, I am forced to point out that, contrary to yesteryear, it is not young men from Muridke dying, it is young Indian citizens, dying at each other's hands.
2. Yes, it is our rightful soil. If you are talking about Ladakh, the Vale and Jammu, it is our rightful soil. If you are talking about west Jammu, that the Pakistanis call Azad Kashmir, it is NOT our rightful soil; if you are talking about Gilgit (not including Baltistan), it is NOT our rightful soil. But did you think that it was unconditionally so? Why have we betrayed every promise, every constitutional provision that was made to the people and the leadership of Kashmir? Rights come with responsibilities, and we need to ask ourselves if we have fulfilled our own obligations.
   
3. If we are sworn to protect the integrity of our nation, why are we killing our citizens? BE CAREFUL HOW YOU ANSWER THIS, DOC; ASK NOT FOR WHOM THE BELL TOLLS, IT TOLLS FOR THEE.

If pigs had wings, they would not figure in the arguments of pig-wrestlers.

<sigh>
As you wish, Doc.

Joe,

Are you now thinking I'm a Modi bhakt and that is the reason for your long post? Of course they've screwed up Kashmir like they've screwed up most everything else.

OR

Are you letting your innate dislike for the sangh and its ethos, pitched against your genuine love for Kashmiris (they've done ZERO to earn mine), cloud your judgement about national interest?

Joe, tomorrow if 9 million Kashmiris decided to want to join with Pakistan, we would still keep Kashmir.

Would you then not say that your self-claimed primary loyalty is at loggerheads with that towards the nation?

Which citizens of ours are we killing Joe that do not need killing? I'm really getting confused now.

Forget history and legalities and UN resolutions Joe. Its all dead and gone.

We are Indians and this is India we are talking about. This is a WAR that is going on. We are AT WAR.

Can you please briefly spell out what you want that we should do?

Cheers, Doc

 

[Joe Shearer]

Joe,

Are you now thinking I'm a Modi bhakt and that is the reason for your long post? Of course they've screwed up Kashmir like they've screwed up most everything else.

LOL.

You really think I waste time on 'bhakts' any more? You've already pointed out I'm 20 years older; wouldn't I be working on my bucket list instead?

OR

Aha. I N C O M I N G . . . .

Are you letting your innate dislike for the sangh and its ethos, pitched against your genuine love for Kashmiris (they've done ZERO to earn mine), cloud your judgement about national interest?

Doc, don't you ever think? Ever?

Do this geriatric old has-been pig-to-be-wrestled-by-all-true-patriots a favour:

Reproduce the first line of the Preamble to the Constitution of India. Do it RIGHT HERE, please; we can talk through your points once you've done that. Unless you decide to jump into the sea out of sheer shame, after reading it preparatory to reproducing it here.

Joe, tomorrow if 9 million Kashmiris decided to want to join with Pakistan, we would still keep Kashmir.

Would you then not say that your self-claimed primary loyalty is at loggerheads with that towards the nation?

Which citizens of ours are we killing Joe that do not need killing? I'm really getting confused now.

Forget history and legalities and UN resolutions Joe. Its all dead and gone.

We are Indians and this is India we are talking about. This is a WAR that is going on. We are AT WAR.

Can you please briefly spell out what you want that we should do?

Cheers, Doc

All follows that request above. It is quite easy, once you have the basics clear, and don't confuse yourself with verbiage.

 

[padamchen]

LOL.

You really think I waste time on 'bhakts' any more? You've already pointed out I'm 20 years older; wouldn't I be working on my bucket list instead?



Aha. I N C O M I N G . . . .



Doc, don't you ever think? Ever?

Do this geriatric old has-been pig-to-be-wrestled-by-all-true-patriots a favour:

Reproduce the first line of the Preamble to the Constitution of India. Do it RIGHT HERE, please; we can talk through your points once you've done that. Unless you decide to jump into the sea out of sheer shame, after reading it preparatory to reproducing it here.



All follows that request above. It is quite easy, once you have the basics clear, and don't confuse yourself with verbiage.

Dada,

We the people of India having solemnly resolved to constitute India into a Sovereign, Socialist, Secular, Democratic Republic

Cheers, Doc

P.S. I went to do susu.

I did not peek .... seriously man.

 

[M. Sarmad]

So where was I wrong?

The above sir is a conflict of interest for most of us.

What you call "jingo pride" is what young men are dying for there.

What you call "jingo pride" is our rightful soil.

What you call "jingo pride" is what we are sworn to protect ... the integrity of our nation.

If Kashmiris come first, and Kashmiris do not want to be with India (hypothetically .... even if you believe the opposite), then where do you stand?

Cheers, Doc

You say that the will of Kashmiris does not matter, we say it does, and that precisely is why we have higher moral ground in Kashmir.

And what Joe is suggesting is ' conflict of interest' for most of Pakistanis as well.

Young Pakistani men are also dying

Young Kashmiris are also dying in what is their rightful soil.

Neither of us is willing to give up our positions vis-à-vis Kashmir,

Kashmiris are suffering.

We cannot take Kashmir by force, and you cannot give it peacefully; we have to find a way to span the distance.

A solution to Kashmir Issue is possible only if both states try to view it in the light of the ongoing humanitarian crisis rather than through the prism of hysterical jingoism.