First Pakistani Army Viper Attack Helicopter Spotted

[TOPGUN]

we aren't having birds beauty contest here bro !lol
we need a 24/7 fighting capable bird , which can't be grounded just because uncle Sam ,isn't happy with us at any time at his will ???

For one to think that we are having a beauty contest has to be really dumb and that sure isn't me , it takes one to appreciate the beauty of a very capable fighting machine like these Zulu's which I have seen first hand in front of my eyes. The PA knows what its doing there wont be any issues with any spares of this bird being grounded don't be silly there isn't a guarantee on any thing in life but life must go on and we face life as it comes each and everyday BRO !!

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Nope Mi35 isnt ah1z replacement. It is basically an armed mi17 and PAA is already getting it for counter insurgency ops - and its yet to be seen how useful these will be and how they actually perfrom logistics wise ( which includes how fairly russians deal with PA in procurement and maintenance phase). The cobras PAA has been using for decades and knows how to deal with US OEMs.

AH1Z is an attack helicopter and the russian counter part would be mi28. The only better attack heli is Apache which India already has now - although I think Ah1zs are almost as good or even better in some aspects such as having a very slim target silhouette.

Other senior members have already given their opinion how good these helis will be for PAA.

Since when Mi35 becomes a counter insurgency heli? Its is an attack helicopter which can be deployed against enemy tank columns. Its an all rounder.

If I understand you correctly, the 12 A1ZH will used against Indian tanks and infantry on eastern front. If that's the argument , then there should have been a significant numbers of these helis ordered not just 12. The number is useless against the sheer number of tanks we will have to deal with.

If we are not sure about Russian reliability as supplier, then I think we are oblivious to the fact that there are nations who rely solely on Russians weapons, and if that is the argument, how does it work with America, when our history is full of sanctions and non sense that we have to deal with America and its different power structures like congress.

The more you look at this deal, more it becomes a case of some influential liberal , westernized high up in establishment , deliberately creating liability for Pakistan and ofcourse in the process, warming up their pockets.

 

[TheDarkKnight]

Since when Mi35 becomes a counter insurgency heli? Its is an attack helicopter which can be deployed against enemy tank columns. Its an all rounder.

What I meant is the role PAA has envisioned for Mi35s. The comparison of Mi35s with dedicated attack helicopters is not valid; as you said its an "all rounder" so its capabilities would be compromised to be good enough in many roles and should not be compared to a dedicated attack helicopter like AH1Z or AH-64, whose design is optimized for lesser roles. Even Russia doesn't see MI35 the way you do, and has dedicated attack helicopters like Mi28. PAA doesn't see it this way either and is even procuring Turkish T129s along with AH1Zs.

If I understand you correctly, the 12 A1ZH will used against Indian tanks and infantry on eastern front. If that's the argument , then there should have been a significant numbers of these helis ordered not just 12. The number is useless against the sheer number of tanks we will have to deal with.

Ok if numbers were your concern, why haven't you mentioned about 4 Mi35 which are much less than 12? Don't just bring arguments for the sake of it. The way Pakistan approaches with procurement is in small batches - rarely has Pakistan placed large orders of any defense equipment even from reliable partners like China. This is due to multiple planning, logistics, geopolitical and financial constraints.

If we are not sure about Russian reliability as supplier, then I think we are oblivious to the fact that there are nations who rely solely on Russians weapons, and if that is the argument, how does it work with America, when our history is full of sanctions and non sense that we have to deal with America and its different power structures like congress.

Sir Russians have only recently started dealing with us - at least on non offensive systems. We are yet to see how willing they are to provide big ticket items like S400. India is still a major factor that cannot be ignored yet. Secondly the nations who solely rely on Russia - not to take anything away from Russian weapons ingenuity and capability - a lot of these nations really don't have any other choice than Russia or China anyway due to financial issues or political restrictions/sanctions from western countries.

The more you look at this deal, more it becomes a case of some influential liberal , westernized high up in establishment , deliberately creating liability for Pakistan and ofcourse in the process, warming up their pockets.

Well we should have some faith; the same so called western liberal establishment has developed and protected strategic programs like nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, JF17, submarine etc.

but the aligator is...
Kamov Ka-50
tested, proven track record, operational, cheap to acquire, no strings

I cannot comment on the capability comparison - don't have time to research and answer. Any way not sure why we assume Russians, who are still the largest defense partners with Inida, would not attach any strings with their weapons sale. You can ask IAF how reliable and exploitative Russians have been for SU30 maintenance.

yup they are the best of the best noone doubts that but dont cry if you have the repeat of 1990s or recent repeat when f16s were blocked or if you have upgrades blocked or if you run out of hellfire missiles

Trust me if PAA ends up using 1000 hellfire missiles on IA, then these AH1Zs have already been utilized to their worth

 

[ziaulislam]

Since when Mi35 becomes a counter insurgency heli? Its is an attack helicopter which can be deployed against enemy tank columns. Its an all rounder.

If I understand you correctly, the 12 A1ZH will used against Indian tanks and infantry on eastern front. If that's the argument , then there should have been a significant numbers of these helis ordered not just 12. The number is useless against the sheer number of tanks we will have to deal with.

If we are not sure about Russian reliability as supplier, then I think we are oblivious to the fact that there are nations who rely solely on Russians weapons, and if that is the argument, how does it work with America, when our history is full of sanctions and non sense that we have to deal with America and its different power structures like congress.

The more you look at this deal, more it becomes a case of some influential liberal , westernized high up in establishment , deliberately creating liability for Pakistan and ofcourse in the process, warming up their pockets.

america has known history of not providing weapons to us and many other countries
while russian has historical kept it word so have the french usually
there is big difference
for example rd 93 was allowed even despite intensive lobyying from india

 

[TheDarkKnight]

america has known history of not providing weapons to us and many other countries
while russian has historical kept it word so have the french usually
there is big difference
for example rd 93 was allowed even despite intensive lobyying from india

While US maybe notorious in Pakistan, others are not innocent. The French blocked mirage upgrades and agosta submarines during Kargil conflict. And now after Rafael deal they have completly given up their defense relations in Pakistan; remember french radars and avionics deal for JF17?
JF17 did face a lot of issues due to Russian reluctance - China was indirectly providing us Rd93s for a long time and included their middleman fee as well . Only recently Russians have started dealing with Pakistan directly on some items, due to geopolitical changes and after Indians have openned up to other western OEMs.

 

[ziaulislam]

While US maybe notorious in Pakistan, others are not innocent. The French blocked mirage upgrades and agosta submarines during Kargil conflict. And now after Rafael deal they have completly given up their defense relations in Pakistan; remember french radars and avionics deal for JF17?
JF17 did face a lot of issues due to Russian reluctance - China was indirectly providing us Rd93s for a long time and included their middleman fee as well . Only recently Russians have started dealing with Pakistan directly on some items, due to geopolitical changes and after Indians have openned up to other western OEMs.

its easier to twist facts
french only briefly blocked the mirages after nuclear tests, the concern was more "money" rather than anything else

russians never blocked anything, it was just an indian rumour

french simply walked away(again citing financial issues) after getting a better deal from india but they will never block a deal or dishonor it as there defense stuture is built upon it

the only example of dishonoring from french was the crimea attack follow blocking of russia ships, that too after immense pressure from whole NATO block and it happened with mutual agreement and resale of ships rather than holding funds as it happened with USA

you comparing a flu with deadly disease..this is how different these cases are

 

[TheDarkKnight]

its easier to twist facts
french only briefly blocked the mirages after nuclear tests, the concern was more "money" rather than anything else

russians never blocked anything, it was just an indian rumour

french simply walked away(again citing financial issues) after getting a better deal from india but they will never block a deal or dishonor it as there defense stuture is built upon it

the only example of dishonoring from french was the crimea attack follow blocking of russia ships, that too after immense pressure from whole NATO block and it happened with mutual agreement and resale of ships rather than holding funds as it happened with USA

you comparing a flu with deadly disease..this is how different these cases are

I dont know why you are praising the French track record in past (supposedly), as it is irrelevant - end result is they are not selling anything now, which is worse than US who is still willing to sell weapons to Pak even in these worst circumstances.

RD93s were procured via China for a long time - that is a fact.

The whole debate was related to why PA and PAF is pursuing big ticket items from US such as AH1Z and F16s. I simply responded that they are the most capable, most affordable, and readily available. You have not provided any worthy alternatives be it Russians, Europeans or Chinese. Even if we include your honorable French here as well for theoretical purposes, they offer Rafales ... can PAF afford them instead of F16s? No!

You can continue to remain delusional and criticize Miltary decision makers over some imaginary alternatives that exist for Pakistan. Pakistans strategy seems very prudent; procuring indigenous or Chinese systems when feasible, slowly building relations with Russia now (I hate to keep repeating but this availability is quite recent, but some folks here think Russians have been willing to sell major weapons since 47, forgetting cold war and Afghan jihad period and Indian influence), and when US options are simply the best, then we have no choice but to swallow the bitter pill.

 

[niaz]

These days everyone talks about the undying friendship with China. Permit me to briefly describe the history of India / China relationship.

India & Britain (because of Hong Kong) were among the very first non-Communist countries to recognise PRC (Peoples Republic of China) very early January 1950. Pakistan recognised PRC one year later in 1951.

Until 1954 India & China were close friends and some oldies might remember “Hindi Chini bhai bhai” slogan of the 1950's. ‘Five Principles” (Panchsheel) of peaceful coexistence was signed in April, 1954 between Indian & China which consisted of (1) Mutual respect for each other’s territorial integrity and sovereignty; (2) Mutual non-aggression; (3) Mutual non-interference in each other’s internal affairs;(4) Equality and mutual benefit: and(5) Peaceful coexistence. The good relations continued and Indian President Radhakrishnan visited China during September 1957.

It was not until January 1959 when PRC Premier Chou En Lai claimed 40,000 square miles of territory in Ladakh & NEFA that relations started to turn sour. A meeting between Pundit Nehru & Chou En Lai in Delhi during April 1960 failed to resolve the boundary question. In April 1959 Dalai Lama escaped from Lhasa to India where he was granted asylum. This act was nail in the coffin of good Sino Indian relations and culminated in the November 1962 border war between Indian & China.

Let us be clear, no country is any other country’s’ eternal friend, nor its eternal enemy. Qatar was a close friend and ally of other Arab Gulf countries and an active member of GCC where citizens of all member countries can travel and work freely without a visa. All of a sudden they are no longer friends. Former U.S. President Harry Truman alleged to have said of the US relationships: “If you want an eternal Friend, get a dog."

Pakistan / US friendship goes back 60 years when we joint SEATO & CENTO and Pakistan started receiving F-86 fighters, Patton tanks & the Ghazi submarine. Now some people are suggesting stopping buying US equipment!
Who is the ungrateful one?

We can’t afford French fighters, Russia is still quite close to India and no one knows for certain what would happen after Putin. This means relying 100% on the Chinese. Must we put all our eggs in one basket again?

If Sino Indian relations can plummet from Hindi China bhai bhai to physical fighting between the two giant neighbours in the span of 12 years; possibility of Pak – China relations going sour in a couple of decades cannot be ruled out altogether.

Pakistan has already diversified her military hardware acquisitions. In order to get the best bang for our buck, Pakistan must look for weapons that best suit her requirement from wherever the same can be acquired.

 

[ziaulislam]

I dont know why you are praising the French track record in past (supposedly), as it is irrelevant - end result is they are not selling anything now, which is worse than US who is still willing to sell weapons to Pak even in these worst circumstances.

RD93s were procured via China for a long time - that is a fact.

The whole debate was related to why PA and PAF is pursuing big ticket items from US such as AH1Z and F16s. I simply responded that they are the most capable, most affordable, and readily available. You have not provided any worthy alternatives be it Russians, Europeans or Chinese. Even if we include your honorable French here as well for theoretical purposes, they offer Rafales ... can PAF afford them instead of F16s? No!

You can continue to remain delusional and criticize Miltary decision makers over some imaginary alternatives that exist for Pakistan. Pakistans strategy seems very prudent; procuring indigenous or Chinese systems when feasible, slowly building relations with Russia now (I hate to keep repeating but this availability is quite recent, but some folks here think Russians have been willing to sell major weapons since 47, forgetting cold war and Afghan jihad period and Indian influence), and when US options are simply the best, then we have no choice but to swallow the bitter pill.

My question
Has Russia or French did any weapon ban on Pakistan that effected operational capacity of PAF or pak army despite us going to war with Russia in 1990

It's so idiotic that you compare these ...there is no comparison
The whole back bone if PAF Were mirages 5/3 at fraction of cost when f16s were dysfunctional

But logic doesn't see everyone

Rd93 were brought via China but Russia has no problem selling them directly ...nor they have problem with selling stuff to Turkey who shot down their fighter jet

 

[ziaulislam]

These days everyone talks about the undying friendship with China. Permit me to briefly describe the history of India / China relationship.

India & Britain (because of Hong Kong) were among the very first non-Communist countries to recognise PRC (Peoples Republic of China) very early January 1950. Pakistan recognised PRC one year later in 1951.

Until 1954 India & China were close friends and some oldies might remember “Hindi Chini bhai bhai” slogan of the 1950's. ‘Five Principles” (Panchsheel) of peaceful coexistence was signed in April, 1954 between Indian & China which consisted of (1) Mutual respect for each other’s territorial integrity and sovereignty; (2) Mutual non-aggression; (3) Mutual non-interference in each other’s internal affairs;(4) Equality and mutual benefit: and(5) Peaceful coexistence. The good relations continued and Indian President Radhakrishnan visited China during September 1957.

It was not until January 1959 when PRC Premier Chou En Lai claimed 40,000 square miles of territory in Ladakh & NEFA that relations started to turn sour. A meeting between Pundit Nehru & Chou En Lai in Delhi during April 1960 failed to resolve the boundary question. In April 1959 Dalai Lama escaped from Lhasa to India where he was granted asylum. This act was nail in the coffin of good Sino Indian relations and culminated in the November 1962 border war between Indian & China.

Let us be clear, no country is any other country’s’ eternal friend, nor its eternal enemy. Qatar was a close friend and ally of other Arab Gulf countries and an active member of GCC where citizens of all member countries can travel and work freely without a visa. All of a sudden they are no longer friends. Former U.S. President Harry Truman alleged to have said of the US relationships: “If you want an eternal Friend, get a dog."

Pakistan / US friendship goes back 60 years when we joint SEATO & CENTO and Pakistan started receiving F-86 fighters, Patton tanks & the Ghazi submarine. Now some people are suggesting stopping buying US equipment!
Who is the ungrateful one?

We can’t afford French fighters, Russia is still quite close to India and no one knows for certain what would happen after Putin. This means relying 100% on the Chinese. Must we put all our eggs in one basket again?

If Sino Indian relations can plummet from Hindi China bhai bhai to physical fighting between the two giant neighbours in the span of 12 years; possibility of Pak – China relations going sour in a couple of decades cannot be ruled out altogether.

Pakistan has already diversified her military hardware acquisitions. In order to get the best bang for our buck, Pakistan must look for weapons that best suit her requirement from wherever the same can be acquired.

You post is self contradicting

 

[Irfan Baloch]

These days everyone talks about the undying friendship with China. Permit me to briefly describe the history of India / China relationship.


Let us be clear, no country is any other country’s’ eternal friend, nor its eternal enemy. Qatar was a close friend and ally of other Arab Gulf countries and an active member of GCC where citizens of all member countries can travel and work freely without a visa. All of a sudden they are no longer friends. Former U.S. President Harry Truman alleged to have said of the US relationships: “If you want an eternal Friend, get a dog."

Pakistan / US friendship goes back 60 years when we joint SEATO & CENTO and Pakistan started receiving F-86 fighters, Patton tanks & the Ghazi submarine. Now some people are suggesting stopping buying US equipment!
Who is the ungrateful one?

We can’t afford French fighters, Russia is still quite close to India and no one knows for certain what would happen after Putin. This means relying 100% on the Chinese. Must we put all our eggs in one basket again?

If Sino Indian relations can plummet from Hindi China bhai bhai to physical fighting between the two giant neighbours in the span of 12 years; possibility of Pak – China relations going sour in a couple of decades cannot be ruled out altogether.

Pakistan has already diversified her military hardware acquisitions. In order to get the best bang for our buck, Pakistan must look for weapons that best suit her requirement from wherever the same can be acquired.

good commentary which should sink into people who don't have singular and closed minds.
due to rudderless foreign policy and bad leadership, Pakistan is suffering badly and China might loose its patience part it's ways with Pakistan and all these pak china songs will become a joke. Chinese are brutal businessmen and they don't take prisoners so Pakistani state, its politicians and its military establishment has to come as a unified force with clarity and purpose if any meaningful and fruitful outcomes are desired from CPEC and beyond for the namesake of these Pak china friendship slogans.

JF-17 program is an inspiring success story of this cooperation and so is the CPEC route. an Army Gen based in Quetta said that Chinese are businessmen first and our friends later and we are also patriotic Pakistanis first and then their friends and both have to first look for our own interests and ensure that they are aligned.

 

[TheDarkKnight]

My question
Has Russia or French did any weapon ban on Pakistan that effected operational capacity of PAF or pak army despite us going to war with Russia in 1990

It's so idiotic that you compare these ...there is no comparison

Russia never could effect PAF operational capacity, because there is nothing Russian in its fleet!!! Same is true for PA, no big ticket Russian items. Major defence suppliers were/are China, USA, France and then some other euro countries. If we use your logic we should be thankful to any random country like Thailand and Chile too, as they never effected our operational capabilities . There was practically a complete freeze of defence relations with Russia for decades (which effects operartional capability negatively as we couldn't find alternatives to US systems) , because of reasons well known: Alliance with USA and west since 47, their role in breaking east pakistan, participation in Afghan jihad with US in 80s, and billions of dollar defence trade with India, etc.

French have put restrictions during conflicts and nuclear tests - latest I remeber is delay in Agosta submarine during Kargil conflict (you can spin it how ever you want it doesnt matter). Their refusals to sell avionics package for JF17 did effect the program negatively. And I have already stated this before: even if their track record was better than US in the past, it doesnt matter now! There is a big “thenga” from the French now after the Rafale deal. So any procurements being made now or in future, you really cant bring nonsense arguments like “but the French were so much better than US!” It could have been a valid point if the French had a relevant alternative, were willing to sell, and from our side we could afford it. These days the French are simply not willing to sell anything major to us, so they really shouldnt be brought up as an alternative to US at all.

The whole back bone if PAF Were mirages 5/3 at fraction of cost when f16s were dysfunctional

But logic doesn’t see everyone

Rd93 were brought via China but Russia has no problem selling them directly ...nor they have problem with selling stuff to Turkey who shot down their fighter jet

Mirage 3/5 a fraction of cost of F16s for PAF!!! I would just stop here now.

 

[airmarshal]

The color of AH-1Z is light grey. It looks like the same color as US Marines have for their helicopter.

The color of AH-1F, that Pakistan Army Aviation currently flies is Olive Green. Its the same color that US Army helicopters have.

The tweet says AH-1Z has same color has current AH-1F and this is not correct.

These helicopters are very sanction prone. Better not deal with US anymore.

 

[araz]

[QUOTE="jupiter2007, post: 10124445, ]There are people in this forum who think from their A$$.
.[/QUOTE]
You need to respect other posters even if you dont agree with them. So please bear this in mind when you next post.
A

 

[araz]

It will all make sense if we had absolutely no options available. Thing is, AH1Z deal was made around the same time frame as Mi-35.

AVM Shahid Latif is on record about the F-16 lobby within PAF, and these lot went to the extend putting hurdles in the Jf17 programme.

Weapons procurement got one rule of thumb that all nations follow which is geopolitics. We are no exception. But our decisions are taken with complete disregard to this. And its not like we haven't paid dearly for this lunacy in past.

As a mature nation, if we think we are mature, need to start asking questions from high and mighty without giving blank cheques. With great power comes great responsibility. Those decisions which do not make sense to majority of the nation, they need to be answered and justified.

Firstly I hope you are not suggesting that we replace the AH1s with MI35s. Two different platofrms for 2 different roles. Each has its own utility. Secondly I hope you will notice the numbers bought which depicts a precautionary tentative buy rather than "lets set up shop boys"buy. Ithink the Zulu buy occured in 2007 with delivery dates set in 2017 due to development time and marines being supplied. interestingly PAA did not ask for olderZulus to be upgraded and provided in the interim.
Overtures have been made towards the Russkies for MI28 but nothing has transpired so far. Our cash strapped national status or the failure of the Red bear to advance a loan has a part to play. We may also continue to harbour doubts about the red bear's motives and supply chain. The arabs have nothing good to say about the russians and their willingness to supply newer armaments. So there are doubts from that avenue till you go with laden pockets and even then some more.
The Turks are work in progress. I think of all the people we might work with it will be Turkey on the helo project. The Chinese have work to do and are another 5 years behind till they have a sellable product. Meanwhile the story goes on. Eventually we will piggy back on to some project for our own indegenous programme. For that we need a joint triforce procurement plan. Recent acquisitions of AW 139s point to T 129 but is it tranche 1 or 2 remains to be seen.
The most intriguing question is why have we not bought at least airframes from Iran for AHIs and done some local jiggery pockery as an interim solution, or is it just a myth? ANY TAKERSFOR A RESPONSE?
A

Yet the world has affectively use russian tech. Won wars..till nkw india was purely using russian to tech...the point is not which is better but which will be available ...what good did do to have 32 dysfunctional f16 in 1990s

A mi35 and other Russian chinese system will do the job better than these any day

ISPR Said USA is friend ...this is the level of understanding ..i mean usa has never called Pakistan a friend... yes we are good Allies but friend is different term

The Kargil fiasco was just that.A big fiasco. Sure you might hold on to some peak or other but it was really badly thought out and a lot of the brass are in agreement.
Secondly if you had used planes it would have turned into a full fledged war which you could not afford and would have lost out in any case.
A