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First Pakistani Army Viper Attack Helicopter Spotted

Bro,

Many here do not get the memo (Pakistani and Chinese). They look at the aesthetics of Chinese products and assume that they have achieved parity with American machines. I know from personal experience that China still has a long way to go.

Japan, US, UK and Germany - each has an excellent education system and R&D base, and their products are virtually unparalleled in sophistication and capabilities on average. Even Russia is 2nd TIER in comparison.
All of world is still struggling to catch up US,Russia and Germany in metallurgy.
Behind all doubts china is nowhere near to Americans,though they have made Quite Good break throughs in weapon Technology,but there systems are imbalanced,means a fighter may have a capable Missile but not a cutting edge Radar,if both them are Cutting Edge,then it would be lacking an ECM package to wage the battle successfully and use them with impunity against Enemy.Indians hype and transfer of even a nail from US to Pak speaks a lot about performance of these systems.Many of our country men certainly don't understand that,from Past Decade Indian Foreign Office is 24/7 busy for stopping transfer of any Hardware from US to Pakistan,and it seems our country men have lended them a good hand by chanting US is our enemy.
 
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Well I was hoping you would provide the alternatives. The trend you see is due to geopolitical and technical limitations. There is no better alternative for F16s in PAF available now. Lets go through other options you think exist below:

- The European options are cost prohibitive, untested, includes initial infrastructure and support costs, may still have US origin subsystems, vulnerable to Indian opposition, and most of all present similar restrictions and threat of sanctions as US options do anyway.

- Russians weren't open until recently, and we still have to see how they would supply PAF with offensive weapons given their interests in India - there is still a long way to go. Technically even if we agree their SU/Mig fighters are as good, their logistics support and weapons systems are completely different from what PAF is used to. For example they wont just make you buy SU35, but also all their weapons and other systems that go with it. And lets not forget the availability ratio of Russian a/c are much lesser than US/European a/c. Pretty much one of the reasons why India is favoring western options now.

- China is the only geopoliticaly safe option; even though that would be putting all your eggs in one basket. They unfortunately are now no longer available at 'friendship prices' as in the past - and cost pretty much the same as US options for the capabilities they offer. The SU clones are not for sale due to Russia; 5th gen fighters are in development or need to be prioritized for PLAAF first. Leaving J10 as the only option - we all know why PAF didn't/couldn't go for them.

Similar arguments can be made about AH1Z; the Turkish T129 also has US components and is still inferior to AH1Z in performance. The Chinese Z10 couldn't even beat the T129 with generous financial terms - so lets not bother comparing with AH1Z.


Are you suggesting there were no alternate to AH1Z? Mi-35 deal was clinched more or less around the same time frame when we ordered AH1Z.


This is delusional and non nonsensical in true sense. Even China is yet to declare US as an enemy - their issues are quite regional in nature related to Taiwan, South China Sea etc. Pakistan picking US as an enemy or declaring any intention to go to war with, is some thing your true enemy India would wish for. The only real threats to Pakistan are limited conflicts with India, and insurgency on western borders, and internal unrest which no body bothers discussing here ( as it involves no fancy weapons!). Proxy war, drone strikes, espionage etc is the most Pakistan may get involved with US - which is all related to Afg situation any way. There is no sane mind sitting in US or Pakistan drawing up plans to get engaged in full fledged war in which systems like F16s or AH1Z may get involved.

I might be delusional , perhaps DG ISPR yesterday was delusional as well. But I assure you neither Trump and Penance were delusional when they put Pakistan on notice. They have caused us plenty of pain and misery through their sub conventional warfare via Afghanistan directly or indirectly through their sidekicks like India, but despite all that we have managed to survive as a nation and state, thanks to Allah, not because of our establishment/deep state, the amount of fk ups they have done. Now they are moving to plan B when plan A didn't deliver the desired results which will be direct intervention and they can "create" their own reasons for that. Any sane person in decision making process will not buy a bullet from America let alone a high profile item like AH1Z.
 
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I had to think long and hard as to how to respond to your post. I fully understand where you are coming from. However, I want to project an alternative point of view which I think reflects the thinking of the high ups(on the assumption that they have the interest of the nation at heart).
To project my point of view I will present a few facts and let you draw your own conclusions. I am not sure whether I am totally right in my assumptions but if you can see the pattern it leads you hopefully to the same conclusions.
We know the US to be at the pinnacle of production of defence equipment. All its products are really good and ergonomically as well as functionally probably the best. As compared to this the EU products are expensive and equally sanctionable. We found this out when France embargoed our Rose MIrages and delayed the delivery of the Augustas in 2002 in the wake of 2002 sanctions.
We are at the cusp of making our own entry into the technologcal world and have brought out our first plane albeit with Chinese help but now having increasing independence in doing with it what we want to do.
We are in a goestrategic zone where the next world war may well be fought. We have a strategically very difficult task of keeping the raging American bull in check with some cajoling, some greens and potentially also strengthen our reserves against our enemies in return. We also have a strategic alliance with a rising super power and are courting another super power knowing fully well the complexities of such a relationship in the context of the past.
Now look at the situation with regards to the two main systems we have bought from the US.
A. We had 28 F16s embargoed by the US when we were on the verge of achieving the ability to explode our bomb. With the thawing of relations we asked for our embargoed planes back. We got 14 back and we kept to our demands and in turn got the 14 ex JAF planes. In turn we upgraded all of our fleet, made a pact for 36 planes with associated armaments. We got all the armaments, but feigned restrictions and only got 18 of the 36 Bl. 52s which we had bargained for. We had the option for 18 more , but did not exercise it.The 8 extras which we wanted to get did not materializeas US reneged on its bargain of paying for the 60% of its cost with FMF. We walked away.
B. We have long been demanding Cobras till the US told us point blank they had run out of stock of spares and the choppers we have have no life left in it. We go on a spree, check out the Z10, and reject it and settle for the 129s. There is chatter of US restrictions on engines to pak. We make a pact for 15 Zulus with 1000,A toS antitank missiles, which we receive and now have settled for 12 units only.
C. All other commodities we procured have been excess articles barring the ship which we were promised 6 of and could not get more than 1 for a parltry 68 million(for a 4000 tonne frigate). We therefore go to the Chinese and order F22s to fill the gap.
A and B point to a trend of buying smaller than the quantity approved. They are clearly not enough to meet our needs but serve a specific purpose. Meanwhile JFT climbs through multiple hoops and progresses to Block 3 taking into account the ergonomics and advancements of the Bl. 52 and we wait to sign the dotted line for the choppers either with the Chinese or the Turks. If you see the trend it is a very wise way of accumulating equipment at a manageable price while getting a look at newer technology which we would not have been able to do so if we had stuck to just the MLUs or Cobras. The numbers do not matter as the technology against our main adversary is still useable . But it protects us from sanctions .
I hope you can see the trend here the way I have been able to see it. I think personally we wont sign for the other choppers for 12 to 18 monthsa till we have had a good look at the Zulus.
Regards
A


It will all make sense if we had absolutely no options available. Thing is, AH1Z deal was made around the same time frame as Mi-35.

AVM Shahid Latif is on record about the F-16 lobby within PAF, and these lot went to the extend putting hurdles in the Jf17 programme.

Weapons procurement got one rule of thumb that all nations follow which is geopolitics. We are no exception. But our decisions are taken with complete disregard to this. And its not like we haven't paid dearly for this lunacy in past.

As a mature nation, if we think we are mature, need to start asking questions from high and mighty without giving blank cheques. With great power comes great responsibility. Those decisions which do not make sense to majority of the nation, they need to be answered and justified.
 
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I've personally seen Chinese Gunship in Pakistan when it was under testing. The gunship is nowhere near Americanish or any west country tech. The quality is extremely poor. Still the 30 years old American cobra's body is far rough, harder and qualitative over latest Chinese Z series....
Yet the world has affectively use russian tech. Won wars..till nkw india was purely using russian to tech...the point is not which is better but which will be available ...what good did do to have 32 dysfunctional f16 in 1990s

A mi35 and other Russian chinese system will do the job better than these any day

ISPR Said USA is friend ...this is the level of understanding ..i mean usa has never called Pakistan a friend... yes we are good Allies but friend is different term
 
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Take example of MRAP bullsit..corruption and lobbying is main decider on all major def deals q
 
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Its your opinion keep it to yourself. Its a different color scheme so it must be PA.. :D
color scheme is US Marines Corps. the Pakistan army added to the tail is PS and I have seen such versions before shared on this forum few years ago.
I will be surprised if these helicopters are handed over to Pakistan with Trump administration which is overtly hostile towards Pakistan and if that wasn't enough , the Pentagon is also leading the allegations and accusations against Pakistan.
 
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Yet the world has affectively use russian tech. Won wars..till nkw india was purely using russian to tech...the point is not which is better but which will be available ...what good did do to have 32 dysfunctional f16 in 1990s

A mi35 and other Russian chinese system will do the job better than these any day

ISPR Said USA is friend ...this is the level of understanding ..i mean usa has never called Pakistan a friend... yes we are good Allies but friend is different term
Suzuki Mehran or Honda Civic - both will work for travelling. However, some will note the difference. :)

Take example of MRAP bullsit..corruption and lobbying is main decider on all major def deals q
And what is wrong with MRAP?
 
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Suzuki Mehran or Honda Civic - both will work for travelling. However, some will note the difference. :)


And what is wrong with MRAP?

15 years and govt cant cough up 500 million dollars for FC and police to get basic level 2 MRAP

1500 MRAPs will cost less than 500 million dollars if brought off the shelf and even less if locally produced

we only have couple of 100s that were gifted by USA and they too are only for base protection duty, whihc was their purpose anyway

i will prefer a suzuki mehran nay day if honda civic comes in with clause that company will take it away if you have an emergency..infact people will laugh if you buy honda with such a clause

i will not be surprised if you get spare parts problem in future for these weapons, congress is extremely hostile towards pakistan
 
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Are you suggesting there were no alternate to AH1Z? Mi-35 deal was clinched more or less around the same time frame when we ordered AH1Z.

Nope Mi35 isnt ah1z replacement. It is basically an armed mi17 and PAA is already getting it for counter insurgency ops - and its yet to be seen how useful these will be and how they actually perfrom logistics wise ( which includes how fairly russians deal with PA in procurement and maintenance phase). The cobras PAA has been using for decades and knows how to deal with US OEMs.

AH1Z is an attack helicopter and the russian counter part would be mi28. The only better attack heli is Apache which India already has now - although I think Ah1zs are almost as good or even better in some aspects such as having a very slim target silhouette.

Other senior members have already given their opinion how good these helis will be for PAA.
 
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Nope Mi35 isnt ah1z replacement. It is basically an armed mi17 and PAA is already getting it for counter insurgency ops - and its yet to be seen how useful these will be and how they actually perfrom logistics wise ( which includes how fairly russians deal with PA in procurement and maintenance phase). The cobras PAA has been using for decades and knows how to deal with US OEMs.

AH1Z is an attack helicopter and the russian counter part would be mi28. The only better attack heli is Apache which India already has now - although I think Ah1zs are almost as good or even better in some aspects such as having a very slim target silhouette.

Other senior members have already given their opinion how good these helis will be for PAA.
but the aligator is...
Kamov Ka-50
tested, proven track record, operational, cheap to acquire, no strings


Other senior members have already given their opinion how good these helis will be for PAA.
yup they are the best of the best noone doubts that but dont cry if you have the repeat of 1990s or recent repeat when f16s were blocked or if you have upgrades blocked or if you run out of hellfire missiles
 
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That is one beautiful bird :)
we aren't having birds beauty contest here bro !lol
we need a 24/7 fighting capable bird , which can't be grounded just because uncle Sam ,isn't happy with us at any time at his will ???
 
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