First Pakistani Army Viper Attack Helicopter Spotted

[TheDarkKnight]

That is such a non sensical argument in today's geopolitics.

Let me be blunt, we are buying weapons from a enemy with whom we might go to war sometime in future not far away.

All nations worth their salt link geopolitics with their weapons purchases, in Pakistan however, we got this outlandish trend.

Well I was hoping you would provide the alternatives. The trend you see is due to geopolitical and technical limitations. There is no better alternative for F16s in PAF available now. Lets go through other options you think exist below:

- The European options are cost prohibitive, untested, includes initial infrastructure and support costs, may still have US origin subsystems, vulnerable to Indian opposition, and most of all present similar restrictions and threat of sanctions as US options do anyway.

- Russians weren't open until recently, and we still have to see how they would supply PAF with offensive weapons given their interests in India - there is still a long way to go. Technically even if we agree their SU/Mig fighters are as good, their logistics support and weapons systems are completely different from what PAF is used to. For example they wont just make you buy SU35, but also all their weapons and other systems that go with it. And lets not forget the availability ratio of Russian a/c are much lesser than US/European a/c. Pretty much one of the reasons why India is favoring western options now.

- China is the only geopoliticaly safe option; even though that would be putting all your eggs in one basket. They unfortunately are now no longer available at 'friendship prices' as in the past - and cost pretty much the same as US options for the capabilities they offer. The SU clones are not for sale due to Russia; 5th gen fighters are in development or need to be prioritized for PLAAF first. Leaving J10 as the only option - we all know why PAF didn't/couldn't go for them.

Similar arguments can be made about AH1Z; the Turkish T129 also has US components and is still inferior to AH1Z in performance. The Chinese Z10 couldn't even beat the T129 with generous financial terms - so lets not bother comparing with AH1Z.

Let me be blunt, we are buying weapons from a enemy with whom we might go to war sometime in future not far away.

This is delusional and non nonsensical in true sense. Even China is yet to declare US as an enemy - their issues are quite regional in nature related to Taiwan, South China Sea etc. Pakistan picking US as an enemy or declaring any intention to go to war with, is some thing your true enemy India would wish for. The only real threats to Pakistan are limited conflicts with India, and insurgency on western borders, and internal unrest which no body bothers discussing here ( as it involves no fancy weapons!). Proxy war, drone strikes, espionage etc is the most Pakistan may get involved with US - which is all related to Afg situation any way. There is no sane mind sitting in US or Pakistan drawing up plans to get engaged in full fledged war in which systems like F16s or AH1Z may get involved.

 

[Signalian]

Similar arguments can be made about AH1Z; the Turkish T129 also has US components and is still inferior to AH1Z in performance. The Chinese Z10 couldn't even beat the T129 with generous financial terms - so lets not bother comparing with AH1Z.

Is Mmw radar the only difference between all ? or is there more? Lets see if AH-1Z join PAA with Mmw radars.

 

[jupiter2007]

Well I was hoping you would provide the alternatives. The trend you see is due to geopolitical and technical limitations. There is no better alternative for F16s in PAF available now. Lets go through other options you think exist below:

- The European options are cost prohibitive, untested, includes initial infrastructure and support costs, may still have US origin subsystems, vulnerable to Indian opposition, and most of all present similar restrictions and threat of sanctions as US options do anyway.

- Russians weren't open until recently, and we still have to see how they would supply PAF with offensive weapons given their interests in India - there is still a long way to go. Technically even if we agree their SU/Mig fighters are as good, their logistics support and weapons systems are completely different from what PAF is used to. For example they wont just make you buy SU35, but also all their weapons and other systems that go with it. And lets not forget the availability ratio of Russian a/c are much lesser than US/European a/c. Pretty much one of the reasons why India is favoring western options now.

- China is the only geopoliticaly safe option; even though that would be putting all your eggs in one basket. They unfortunately are now no longer available at 'friendship prices' as in the past - and cost pretty much the same as US options for the capabilities they offer. The SU clones are not for sale due to Russia; 5th gen fighters are in development or need to be prioritized for PLAAF first. Leaving J10 as the only option - we all know why PAF didn't/couldn't go for them.

Similar arguments can be made about AH1Z; the Turkish T129 also has US components and is still inferior to AH1Z in performance. The Chinese Z10 couldn't even beat the T129 with generous financial terms - so lets not bother comparing with AH1Z.


This is delusional and non nonsensical in true sense. Even China is yet to declare US as an enemy - their issues are quite regional related to Taiwan, South China Sea etc. Pakistan picking US as an enemy or go to war with is some thing your true enemy India would wish for. The only real threats to Pakistan are limited conflicts with India, and insurgency on western borders, and internal unrest which no body bothers discussing here ( as it involves no fancy weapons!). Proxy war, drone strikes, espionage etc is the most Pakistan may get involved with US at the most - which is all related to Afg situation any way. There is no sane mind sitting in US or Pakistan drawing up plans to get engaged in full fledged war in which systems like F16s or AH1Z may get involved.

Everything you said make sense. There are people in this forum who think from their A$$. In this multipolar world there is no friend or enemy, there are only interest. People think Modi will be in India forever. Modi down fall is coming soon.
Trump and policies will also be gone in 3 years. We need to focus on our own interest. We need to have better relationships with USA and European countries...Our government doesn't care about anything but their pockets. We had no foreign minister for last 3 years. We need to develop independent foreign & economic policy that focuses on our interests. We need a foreign minister who has strong communication skills, strong character with dynamic personality. Someone who can speak proper Urdu and English.
Khawaja Asif look like a faqir, no Urdu or English skills. Khawaja Asif remind me of the attached picture.

 

[KAL-EL]

Now that looks and I'm guessing probably performs wicked cool.

Of course, nothing beats out Airwolf or Blue Thunder

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Zulu Cobra and Hellfile / APKWS Acquisition is a blow to the Indian investment in T90 MBTs. However, we must not forget that our MBT formations face the Apache.

 

[araz]

Zulu Cobra and Hellfile / APKWS Acquisition is a blow to the Indian investment in T90 MBTs. However, we must not forget that our MBT formations face the Apache.

How do you see this panning out? Is ghe Zulu T129 combo if it materializes goodcenough to hold the fort. What long term plans do you think PAA has.
A

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

How do you see this panning out? Is ghe Zulu T129 combo if it materializes goodcenough to hold the fort. What long term plans do you think PAA has.
A

Chinese Heli is development. It will likely be the Turks. It may also be a mix. PAA will be a big hodge podge, and will have shit loads of maintenance problems in the future.

 

[araz]

Chinese Heli is development. It will likely be the Turks. It may also be a mix. PAA will be a big hodge podge, and will have shit loads of maintenance problems in the future.

But why? It should not be so given the Turkish overtures towards joint assembly. Is it money or the usual cutswhich go into someones Chalet in Switzerland or where ever.
A

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

But why? It should not be so given the Turkish overtures towards joint assembly. Is it money or the usual cutswhich go into someones Chalet in Switzerland or where ever.
A

dont be so negative. Not everyone is lost in Pakistan.

 

[araz]

dont be so negative. Not everyone is lost in Pakistan.

Touche. Point taken but the question still needs answering and a response would be appreciated.
regards

 

[Imran Khan]

sticking on two platforms will be just fine

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

How do you see this panning out? Is ghe Zulu T129 combo if it materializes goodcenough to hold the fort. What long term plans do you think PAA has.
A

Direction is Turkey, China, Russia. Whomever wins commercially.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

I still have doubt, delivery of viper may see hurdles.
However, Having these few birds is not a bad idea in current situation.
Pakistan already has moved towards T-129 and Russian Helos for further procurements.

 

[Rank]

Chinese Heli is development. It will likely be the Turks. It may also be a mix. PAA will be a big hodge podge, and will have shit loads of maintenance problems in the future.

I've personally seen Chinese Gunship in Pakistan when it was under testing. The gunship is nowhere near Americanish or any west country tech. The quality is extremely poor. Still the 30 years old American cobra's body is far rough, harder and qualitative over latest Chinese Z series....

 

[LeGenD]

I've personally seen Chinese Gunship in Pakistan when it was under testing. The gunship is nowhere near Americanish or any west country tech. The quality is extremely poor. Still the 30 years old American cobra's body is far rough, harder and qualitative over latest Chinese Z series....

Bro,

Many here do not get the memo (Pakistani and Chinese). They look at the aesthetics of Chinese products and assume that they have achieved parity with American machines. I know from personal experience that China still has a long way to go.

Japan, US, UK and Germany - each has an excellent education system and R&D base, and their products are virtually unparalleled in sophistication and capabilities on average. Even Russia is 2nd TIER in comparison.