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Behind the CeaseFireLine (CFL) ......

Coming to the detailed analysis in which you and @Nilgiri have expressed interest, in (sorry for split infinitives), if it were possible to get comments from our very knowledgeable and articulate friend on the following areas in the Leh-Gurdaspur line, it would be fascinating.
  1. Turtuk;
  2. Kargil-Dras, including the almost laughable insistence on both sides to refuse to mention the Deosai National Park, notwithstanding the mysterious, very energetic activities of the PA in the vicinity;
  3. The several examples of 'finger' corridors, a logistical phenomenon very nicely articulated by our friend:
    1. Bandipora - Kilshay
    2. Bandipora (or Baramulla directly) - Teetwal
    3. Baramulla - Uri
    4. Shopian - Poonch
    5. Rajauri - Poonch
  4. The dangers to the IA from the proximity of the beautiful communications set up in AJK
  5. The situation in Akhnoor-Chhamb, already mentioned by him in laconic terms
  6. The consequential weakness in the line Akhnoor- Ajnala;
The Indian defence forces strongest weapon (already mentioned) is its ability to create infrastructure. The recent road up to Daulat Beg Oldi is an example; it replicates the main roadway between Jammu and Kargil. Much, much more remains to be done; first, to create parallel roads another 50 to 100 kms inwards from the Dras - Leh roadway, second, to create ring roads, for instance, Shopian - Gulmarg - Baramulla (avoiding Sopore) - Handwara - Bandipora, and circling down, Sonamarg - Pahalgam back to the Banihal. These links are needed to form the palm to the fingers to be seen here:
  1. Shopian - Poonch
  2. Srinagar - Gulmarg
  3. Srinagar - Baramula
  4. Srinagar - Sopore
  5. Sopore - Teetwal (covers a number of finger segments)
The IA lacks everything; they live in tent camps, no barracks, no defences other than perimeter patrolling, no air defence (the Air Force has collared everything to defend its air bases), no natural defences, located close to civilian locations with the threat of collateral damages, no artillery parks except commandeered school playgrounds (the Panzgam example is festering inside me, so this example keeps poppping out at moments of stress), no defended helipads, no airstrips closer than Kargil outside Srinagar.....

Unfortunately, most of the land needed for building military infrastructure is land used for high-value apple growing, and nobody is selling; in the south, it is even worse, with the saffron fields producing the world's most expensive spice. Exercising eminent domain will create yet another festering sore; it is not advised.

Building in the rocky mountain fastnesses outside the vale is easy enough; it becomes a rock-blasting exercise, but then, what about the water? What about the consequences to a very delicate ecology? Building inside the vale pisses off the apple-growers; building inside the Ladakh hinterland pisses off the ecologically-sensitised Ladakhi.

Might be best just to hand over the whole shooting match to those who want it so desperately, and withdraw to shortened and hugely improved lines of communications, and a far more manageable situation. Two Army Corps, including the monstrous XVI Corps, get released, the pressure on Pakistan in the international border and working border sections increases to that extent (unfortunately there will be major expense in converting mountain divisions to mechanised infantry; an alternative would be shifting all these to the LAC); there will be sharply increased revenue available for building infrastructure from Sri Ganganagar downwards.

But Manstein didn't get his druthers; the Indian Army won't, either.

I have a different proposal to go about, based on my limited personal experience , if we are to benefit from it.

I think first we need to analyze, not in detail ofcourse, the previous wars fought between Pakistan and India, and why both of these countries were unable to achieve their desired aims, especially India which is, and has been, several times bigger than Pakistan. Terrain analysis will automatically come into play.

This short prelude will make its all understand, what has been happening in different sectors for the last 70 years.....
With this background of info, we can then go ahead regarding what is presently deployed on ground, and the options available.

More Learned and experienced members here are a better judge as to whether we should open a new thread for this to keep it relevant.
I suggest that we should.
 
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I have a different proposal to go about, based on my limited personal experience , if we are to benefit from it.

I think first we need to analyze, not in detail ofcourse, the previous wars fought between Pakistan and India, and why both of these countries were unable to achieve their desired aims, especially India which is, and has been, several times bigger than Pakistan. Terrain analysis will automatically come into play.

This short prelude will make its all understand, what has been happening in different sectors for the last 70 years.....
With this background of info, we can then go ahead regarding what is presently deployed on ground, and the options available.

More Learned and experienced members here are a better judge as to whether we should open a new thread for this to keep it relevant.
I suggest that we should.

My response is
Yes, and
Yes.

This is a sounder alternative to the one I had in mind; it will keep us rooted.

What should the format be? A statement and its deconstruction? For instance, should you wish me or somebody appropriate to post the narrative of the 47-48 Kashmir conflict, for deconstruction by participants?

As for my own participation, @Nilgiri and you, @PanzerKiel, must decide if I am capable of clinical, impersonal narration, without getting emotional.

@jbgt90
@Nilgiri Please also tag relevant others, Indian and Pakistani
Please also could you or @PanzerKiel start a thread, with a suitable equidistant title?
@kongn @scorpionx @MilSpec @IMARVIN @Paro
@Signalian @Gryphon @Cuirassier @Psychic

@Arsalan @Irfan Baloch It would be nice if you kept involved, purely from the point of view of the interest of the subject matter. I am persuaded that the people tagged are of a sufficient level of personal development not to require any monitoring.
 
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What should the format be? A statement and its deconstruction? For instance, should you wish me or somebody appropriate to post the narrative of the 47-48 Kashmir conflict, for deconstruction by participants?

As for my own participation, @Nilgiri and you, @PanzerKiel, must decide if I am capable of clinical, impersonal narration, without getting emotional.[/USER]

We can start of, let's say with any war, 48, 65 or 71, discuss in detail, and draw relevant conclusions / key takeaways....
@Joe Shearer your participation would always be a welcome addition.

Well then, let's wait for the new thread.... Then it starts... It's a deep plunge though.
 
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We can start of, let's say with any war, 48, 65 or 71, discuss in detail, and draw relevant conclusions / key takeaways....
@Joe Shearer your participation would always be a welcome addition.

Well then, let's wait for the new thread.... Then it starts... It's a deep plunge though.

If you wish me to set it off, it has to wait for two hours; I have some outside errands to run. Of course, anyone is welcome.
 
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My response is
Yes, and
Yes.

This is a sounder alternative to the one I had in mind; it will keep us rooted.

What should the format be? A statement and its deconstruction? For instance, should you wish me or somebody appropriate to post the narrative of the 47-48 Kashmir conflict, for deconstruction by participants?

As for my own participation, @Nilgiri and you, @PanzerKiel, must decide if I am capable of clinical, impersonal narration, without getting emotional.

@jbgt90
@Nilgiri Please also tag relevant others, Indian and Pakistani
Please also could you or @PanzerKiel start a thread, with a suitable equidistant title?
@kongn @scorpionx @MilSpec @IMARVIN @Paro
@Signalian @Gryphon @Cuirassier @Psychic

@Arsalan @Irfan Baloch It would be nice if you kept involved, purely from the point of view of the interest of the subject matter. I am persuaded that the people tagged are of a sufficient level of personal development not to require any monitoring.


As far as format is concerned, I'll prefer to follow from Indian point of view, we'll discuss both, but my main focus would be that why india has not prevailed in the conventional wars..... From this argument, the capabilities and limitations of both sides will come up.

If you wish me to set it off, it has to wait for two hours; I have some outside errands to run. Of course, anyone is welcome.

Don't worry, I've already started, we'll be up in 30 mins, provided the new thread is up.

We can start of, let's say with any war, 48, 65 or 71, discuss in detail, and draw relevant conclusions / key takeaways....
@Joe Shearer your participation would always be a welcome addition.

Well then, let's wait for the new thread.... Then it starts... It's a deep plunge though.

And we'll not restrict ourselves to army. We'll discuss separately air and naval operations for the wars.

Again, we'll not discuss the operations on detail, just major events which will help us at reaching meaningful conclusions.
 
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As far as format is concerned, I'll prefer to follow from Indian point of view, we'll discuss both, but my main focus would be that why india has not prevailed in the conventional wars..... From this argument, the capabilities and limitations of both sides will come up.



Don't worry, I've already started, we'll be up in 30 mins, provided the new thread is up.



And we'll not restrict ourselves to army. We'll discuss separately air and naval operations for the wars.

Again, we'll not discuss the operations on detail, just major events which will help us at reaching meaningful conclusions.

Sounds very good to me.
 
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All already working in MS WORD, waiting for the new thread...

Will create this thread for this....sorry was off busy elsewhere for a bit...hence the delay.

What would you have me call it and where should we start it?

Actually let me just create one to start with and we can change title later if we want.

I will start it in "https://defence.pk/pdf/forums/military-history-tactics.11/" Military history and tactics.

We can move it or clone it back here if we later prefer.

Thread: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indi...nalysis-aims-tactics-strategy-results.667181/
 
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You never know, you might turn up into that gritty old man who refuses to give up :p:

My father died when he was 92.

I was arrogant, and thought with devoted care, I could keep him alive till 95 (no particular reason for that figure; it just seemed like a nice idea at the time). What a fool I was.
 
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My father died when he was 92.

I was arrogant, and thought with devoted care, I could keep him alive till 95 (no particular reason for that figure; it just seemed like a nice idea at the time). What a fool I was.
My great grand father died in 98 at age of over 110 and every night he used to pray to God to let give him a few more years. One day I asked him what does he intend to do with it, he replied he wanted to do some more good deeds before he leaves....Anyhow best of health to you @Joe Shearer and nice to see you actively participating and contributing again to the forum...
 
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Pathankot is a key point for India because through this 50-km deep corridor passes India’s entire rail and road communications between the mainland and Kashmir.

The potential for Pakistan to cut this corridor, either by a clean advance to the base of the Himalayas or by advancing a short distance and interdicting the main Pathankot-Jammu road with artillery, has always worried India.
What if the defender constructs a wall to prevent artillery observation from other side?

Before the end of 1996, around 30km or so of Keran sector was exposed to Indian positions which were at dominating heights. Out of these 30 km, around 16km were exposed to small arms fire from less than a thousand meters from dominating heights. Indian troops generously fired at Pakistani vehicles moving below with LMGs. The vehicles with people inside would usually fall in Jhelum below after being hit. In 1996, GSO 12 Division,Gen Abdul Qadir Baloch ordered construction of 6-8ft high and 5ft thick wall to protect the road, and vehicles moving on it from Indian firing. It took 3 months and 3000 labourers to "build the Trump wall". During the construction, Indians, at some places from less than 700-800 meters fired incessantly. The wall was constructed under fire within three months.

Actually, Gen Baloch raised this issue as a criticism of Kargil plan when Aziz and Javed Hasan briefed that their plan was to intredict the road with artillery and small arms fire.

Furthermore, what prevents the enemy from moving their trucks during night hours? UAVs and sophie sights change night time situation in modern era I guess.

@Joe Shearer
 
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What if the defender constructs a wall to prevent artillery observation from other side?

Before the end of 1996, around 30km or so of Keran sector was exposed to Indian positions which were at dominating heights. Out of these 30 km, around 16km were exposed to small arms fire from less than a thousand meters from dominating heights. Indian troops generously fired at Pakistani vehicles moving below with LMGs. The vehicles with people inside would usually fall in Jhelum below after being hit. In 1996, GSO 12 Division,Gen Abdul Qadir Baloch ordered construction of 6-8ft high and 5ft thick wall to protect the road, and vehicles moving on it from Indian firing. It took 3 months and 3000 labourers to "build the Trump wall". During the construction, Indians, at some places from less than 700-800 meters fired incessantly. The wall was constructed under fire within three months.

Actually, Gen Baloch raised this issue as a criticism of Kargil plan when Aziz and Javed Hasan briefed that their plan was to intredict the road with artillery and small arms fire.

Furthermore, what prevents the enemy from moving their trucks during night hours? UAVs and sophie sights change night time situation in modern era I guess.

@Joe Shearer

In fact, sunken roads is the answer. But more anon.
 
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I have a different proposal to go about, based on my limited personal experience , if we are to benefit from it.

I think first we need to analyze, not in detail ofcourse, the previous wars fought between Pakistan and India, and why both of these countries were unable to achieve their desired aims, especially India which is, and has been, several times bigger than Pakistan. Terrain analysis will automatically come into play.

This short prelude will make its all understand, what has been happening in different sectors for the last 70 years.....
With this background of info, we can then go ahead regarding what is presently deployed on ground, and the options available.

More Learned and experienced members here are a better judge as to whether we should open a new thread for this to keep it relevant.
I suggest that we should.
Guys.
My sincerest advice is to make a separate thread for the analysis and make the thread one for people to read only. Only people with sane minds can contribute by invitation only. That way we will have a good analytical basis for knowledge which an be used to understand the dynamics of the Indo Pak conflicts in the past, present and perhaps the future though none of us want to see one.
Kindest regards
A
 
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