American kids are 'political pawns' in gun control battle, CEOs say

[maximuswarrior]

The problem is not gun violence, but the violent mindset of many Americans. Americans are extreme. That is how they are nurtured and brought up. From fast food to violent entertainment. Violence surrounds their every day life. The whole upbringing is just violent and unnatural. Violence is not going to disappear from American society.

Guns are an easy way to kill scores of people. Basically a preferred choice of weapon by many lunatics in that part of the world. 'Murica is ruled by guns. Guns means religion. It won't be easy to decrease guns. The average American is up in arms if you talk about gun regulation. Just look at this discussion as an example. Radicalization is like a drug. The Americans are hooked onto their guns.

It should tell us which way the American population is heading. Afterall, they chose Donald. J. Trump as their president. The most vile leader to have as a nation. Anything is possible in Yankeeland.

 

[nahtanbob]

So, the authorities are working?
And just because you only know 1 side or understand 1 narrative doesnt automatically mean you know it all!

What part of Pearl Harbour attack narrative is not told to Americans ?

The problem is not gun violence, but the violent mindset of many Americans. Americans are extreme. That is how they are nurtured and brought up. From fast food to violent entertainment. Violence surrounds their every day life. The whole upbringing is just violent and unnatural. Violence is not going to disappear from American society.

Guns are an easy way to kill scores of people. Basically a preferred choice of weapon by many lunatics in that part of the world. 'Murica is ruled by guns. Guns means religion. It won't be easy to decrease guns. The average American is up in arms if you talk about gun regulation. Just look at this discussion as an example. Radicalization is like a drug. The Americans are hooked onto their guns.

It should tell us which way the American population is heading. Afterall, they chose Donald. J. Trump as their president. The most vile leader to have as a nation. Anything is possible in Yankeeland.

trump was elected for two reasons - opposition to free trade and immigration
guns have been in america for 250 years. america has done just fine.

 

[gambit]

Well, back to my original stance....No one is saying STOP using guns altogether...there is a difference between BAN and REGULATE! Between increasing laws and making it outlawed!

See this is the problem! YOU automatically take REGULATING as BAN! It is not synonym!

Say you 'own' a home.

Now let us say that I -- the goobermint -- decide to 'regulate' how you use your home.

- You can only paint your house from a list of approved colors.
- To keep the noise level down and to maintain a peaceful environment, you are allowed only two guests at any time.
- You cannot conduct any kind of business out of your home.
- You must get approval for sale of your home and even the potential buyer must be approved.
- You can...
- You cannot...
- You must...
- You must not...
- You are allowed...
- You are not allowed...

Get the picture?

Technically speaking, you still 'own' your home, but realistically, it is the goobermint that is the true owner.

So yes, exercise your English 101 skill. This is one of those things so obvious that only an intellectual -- or those who thinks they are -- can deny it.

Just like how you ASSUME a witness/ accused is crazy or not? Psych test? Or provisional license like for driving? Where there is a will there is a way....

Yes, let us ASSUME that all gun buyers are potential mindless killers. After all, the gun is a tool that is designed to kill.

A car is a tool that is designed for transportation. A hammer is a tool designed for construction. A bat -- baseball or cricket -- is a tool design for sports. Beside their original intents, any of these items can be used to kill.

A gun is a tool design to kill. The motivation is the unknown part about a potential gun owner. So for that sake of public safety, we should just ban all guns, confiscate all existing guns, and put all gun owners under psychological evaluations. Deal?

Typical of someone who has no arguments.....

It is YOU who have no arguments. About this or just about anything relating to US.

Suit yourselves!

We will -- and that attitude is what really galled you.

Let us take a look at this statement by you on post 24: "everyone has tried to knock some sense in y'all"

It smacks of arrogance. What make YOU think you have any more 'sense' than the average American? Your Pakistan is a mess in terms of culture and politics. So what make YOU think any Pakistani have any leeway in criticizing Americans?

You are not debating against someone who never left CONUS. I have seen sufficiently of other countries in my adult yrs in both military and civilian status. Even with the Brits or the French or the Spaniards, I can find things in their cultures that I can arrogantly say they have no 'sense'. And for your part of the world...??? I can have a field day.

The problem with YOU is a common attitude -- that you just want Americans to be like you whatever country you came from.

And you cannot stand it when we resist conformity to the rest of the world.

The gun is our issue, not yours. The gun problem, in the social and cultural contexts, is not exportable. The same cannot be said for religions. You should focus on that.

 

[Dubious]

Say you 'own' a home.

Now let us say that I -- the goobermint -- decide to 'regulate' how you use your home.

- You can only paint your house from a list of approved colors.
- To keep the noise level down and to maintain a peaceful environment, you are allowed only two guests at any time.
- You cannot conduct any kind of business out of your home.
- You must get approval for sale of your home and even the potential buyer must be approved.
- You can...
- You cannot...
- You must...
- You must not...
- You are allowed...
- You are not allowed...

Get the picture?

Well question should also be asked...is my house killing people in the tens to hundreds?

Yes, let us ASSUME that all gun buyers are potential mindless killers. After all, the gun is a tool that is designed to kill.

It is called responsibility.

When you get a visa form most countries ask if you have links to terrorism...So are these countries assuming ALL visa applicants are potential terrorists?

A car is a tool that is designed for transportation. A hammer is a tool designed for construction. A bat -- baseball or cricket -- is a tool design for sports. Beside their original intents, any of these items can be used to kill.

Sure, but are they the weapon of interest in a killing?

A gun is a tool design to kill. The motivation is the unknown part about a potential gun owner. So for that sake of public safety, we should just ban all guns, confiscate all existing guns, and put all gun owners under psychological evaluations. Deal?

HERE lies the problem from regulation you jump to extreme of banning all because a psych test was asked of you!

If you as you say are really owning a gun for self protection, the protection of your neighbour and others is also the responsibility of the nation and asking you of a small psych test shouldnt irk you this much!

It is YOU who have no arguments. About this or just about anything relating to US.

And we see it again

Fighting with an unknown on an open forum...and then accusing that member when you run out of arguments... can only be a facepalm situation...

We will -- and that attitude is what really galled you.

Nahhh..I am just waiting for you guys to realize ....but I guess it will be over your dead body so in the speaking!

It smacks of arrogance. What make YOU think you have any more 'sense' than the average American? Your Pakistan is a mess in terms of culture and politics. So what make YOU think any Pakistani have any leeway in criticizing Americans?

Oh when trying to discuss I am being personally attacked when told to suit yourself, I am still being personally judged...I think this attitude explains more about you then me!

"We go personal coz of course : when nothing to say TROLL the thread by derailing it!"

You are not debating against someone who never left CONUS. I have seen sufficiently of other countries in my adult yrs in both military and civilian status. Even with the Brits or the French or the Spaniards, I can find things in their cultures that I can arrogantly say they have no 'sense'. And for your part of the world...??? I can have a field day.

The problem with YOU is a common attitude -- that you just want Americans to be like you whatever country you came from.

And we see the insecurity level showing itself once again!

And you cannot stand it when we resist conformity to the rest of the world.

The gun is our issue, not yours. The gun problem, in the social and cultural contexts, is not exportable. The same cannot be said for religions. You should focus on that.

Tell that to parents of the next school shooting victims!

 

[gambit]

Well question should also be asked...is my house killing people in the tens to hundreds?

Not the point, is it? The point is when does 'regulation' becomes de facto a 'ban'.

It is called responsibility.

Yes. And the vast majority of American gun owners are very responsible.

When you get a visa form most countries ask if you have links to terrorism...So are these countries assuming ALL visa applicants are potential terrorists?

It is a stupid question. Just like it is stupid to assume that a potential gun owner is an inevitable mass shooter.

Sure, but are they the weapon of interest in a killing?

Some times the car was a 'weapon' in a killing.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/f...ry-vehicles-being-used-deadly-weapons-n609811

HERE lies the problem from regulation you jump to extreme of banning all because a psych test was asked of you!

If you as you say are really owning a gun for self protection, the protection of your neighbour and others is also the responsibility of the nation and asking you of a small psych test shouldnt irk you this much!

There is a great difference between a psychological evaluation vs a technical competency test.

A driver's license is a technical competency test. Many people failed their first attempt at getting a driver's licence. A psychological evaluation is much more consequential. A psychological evaluation is not a 'pass/fail' event but information gathering and assessment. A psychological evaluation is much more financially burdensome and time consuming than a driver's license. So what do you propose, that every potential gun buyer must spend hundred$$ before he/she can get a gun?

http://www.danielpickarphd.com/psychological-psychoeducational-testing.shtml

Fees for psychological testing are $240 per hour, which includes time spent in interviews, psychological testing, test scoring and interpretation, and report writing. A psychological assessment with report typically costs in the range of $2200 to $2400. A psychoeducational assessment with report typically costs in the range of $3000 to $3500.

Small, you say?

And we see it again

Fighting with an unknown on an open forum...and then accusing that member when you run out of arguments... can only be a facepalm situation...

Considering you did said a psychological evaluation is 'small' without doing basic research, I have no problems saying that you do not know what you are talking about.

Oh when trying to discuss I am being personally attacked when told to suit yourself, I am still being personally judged...I think this attitude explains more about you then me!

So you gave yourself the latitude to judge US but cannot stand the same?

"We go personal coz of course : when nothing to say TROLL the thread by derailing it!"

There is no 'derailing' here, buddy. I got straight to the point.

What does America's gun issue have to do with YOU personally? Does it affect your work performance or your social life? If not, then what is the point of you debating this against any American?

The bottom line is that the gun issue in America gives you a temporary fix of being morally 'superior' to US. It is like a drug. Once the high wears off, you realize you are no different than US no matter how hard you tried to convince yourself.

 

[VCheng]

When you get a visa form most countries ask if you have links to terrorism...So are these countries assuming ALL visa applicants are potential terrorists?

This is a legal tactic. Making such declarations means that if there is ever a case proving anything to the contrary, this attestation is proof that the applicant lied to get a visa and hence easier to deport.

 

[TMA]

Do you know about the reforms in Australia? It worked for them. I don't understand why Americans religiously support the 2nd amendment. If no one has a weapon then no one can use weapon, it's simple.

I also advocate for gun control in Pakistan, I'm not singling you out but I think Pakistanis will be more chill if reforms were to be inducted.

Cos then only criminals will have them....also I think the Founding Fathers and other early American leaders wanted their people to have weapons to defend against tyranny of their own government....not justing defending against home invaders...

 

[Dubious]

Not the point, is it? The point is when does 'regulation' becomes de facto a 'ban'.

If that is a case, when homes are "regulated" does America ban housing?

It is a stupid question. Just like it is stupid to assume that a potential gun owner is an inevitable mass shooter.

Hence what I have been telling you no one assumes all gun owners are killers however, some just happen to end up killing and thus, regulating to know who is bent to kill would help reduce killings...

Some times the car was a 'weapon' in a killing.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/f...ry-vehicles-being-used-deadly-weapons-n609811

Sure but they are regulated, if need be even the eyesight is checked....just to make sure the people behind the wheel dont unintentionally end up killing coz they cant see properly...

Driving Eyesight in the US
The minimum eyesight requirement to drive in the USA is determined by state, however the general requirement is the same as the UK, although is measured as 20/40 rather than 6/12 format more commonly used elsewhere. As a sample, New York and California state;

"Visual acuity of at least 20/40 (based on the Snellen Visual Acuity Scale)"

So there is a minimum eyesight requirement so why isnt there a minimum sanity requirement to purchase a gun?

There is a great difference between a psychological evaluation vs a technical competency test.

A driver's license is a technical competency test. Many people failed their first attempt at getting a driver's licence. A psychological evaluation is much more consequential. A psychological evaluation is not a 'pass/fail' event but information gathering and assessment. A psychological evaluation is much more financially burdensome and time consuming than a driver's license. So what do you propose, that every potential gun buyer must spend hundred$$ before he/she can get a gun?

http://www.danielpickarphd.com/psychological-psychoeducational-testing.shtml
Small, you say?

Sure do you not want a safe environment? The potential killer would also be telling that he is purchasing a gun to protect himself...How many mass shooters claimed they killed to protect America?

Considering you did said a psychological evaluation is 'small' without doing basic research, I have no problems saying that you do not know what you are talking about.

It would deter people from buying guns except those who "really" need to! You dont think that is a small price for safety then I have no problems saying that you do not know what you are "trolling"...

So you gave yourself the latitude to judge US but cannot stand the same?

This is a Pakistani forum...Pakistan is judged 24/7 on various threads...No one stops you. But as a "professional" you should be aware of not derailing the thread ESP when you cant talk about the topic at hand! THAT is termed trolling!

There is no 'derailing' here, buddy. I got straight to the point.

Nope...you just got personal...I have ignored it but you just seem to be prodding it like an uncontrolled child!

What does America's gun issue have to do with YOU personally? Does it affect your work performance or your social life? If not, then what is the point of you debating this against any American?

It effects the security of my nieces and nephews...You may not care about your children and future but desi people do care about their families and extended families!

The bottom line is that the gun issue in America gives you a temporary fix of being morally 'superior' to US. It is like a drug. Once the high wears off, you realize you are no different than US no matter how hard you tried to convince yourself.

And here comes the child! No wonder you are irked by a psychological evaluation for owning a gun!

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-...tings-is-a-national-disgrace-parkland-florida

This is a legal tactic. Making such declarations means that if there is ever a case proving anything to the contrary, this attestation is proof that the applicant lied to get a visa and hence easier to deport.

Same can be used for gun purchases, no?

 

[VCheng]

Same can be used for gun purchases, no?

Two entirely different matters. Entering a country for a visitor is a privilege granted after due scrutiny. Gun ownership is a right for citizens with specified requirements.

 

[Dubious]

Two entirely different matters. Entering a country for a visitor is a privilege granted after due scrutiny. Gun ownership is a right for citizens with specified requirements.

Well, I am talking about regulating...By regulating something dangerous - doesnt decrease your rights on it or owning it....just a modification of the said specific requirements

 

[VCheng]

Well, I am talking about regulating...By regulating something dangerous - doesnt decrease your rights on it or owning it....just a modification of the said specific requirements

Regulating visitors is different than regulating citizens. That is all.

 

[Dubious]

Regulating visitors is different than regulating citizens. That is all.

Regulating is regulating....

ESP when it comes to national interest...I doubt it is in nation's interest to get more people killed every now and then!

 

[gambit]

If that is a case, when homes are "regulated" does America ban housing?

No, it means the home owner is no longer the true owner. Similarly with guns, when guns are regulated to the point where it is expensive and cumbersome to get a gun, then effectively, the gun is banned. Not that difficult to see.

Hence what I have been telling you no one assumes all gun owners are killers however, some just happen to end up killing and thus, regulating to know who is bent to kill would help reduce killings...

Then why not do the same for driver's license. We can institute BOTH technical competency ($) and psychological evaluation ($$$$) for the car and the gun. Deal?

This is a Pakistani forum...Pakistan is judged 24/7 on various threads...No one stops you. But as a "professional" you should be aware of not derailing the thread ESP when you cant talk about the topic at hand! THAT is termed trolling!

Am not derailing the thread. Am just pointing out the absurdity of someone who is from a country that has far worse political and social problems than US and yet takes it upon himself to arrogantly claimed he and his people have more 'sense' than Americans. If you have so much more 'sense' than Americans, why not fix your problems?

It effects the security of my nieces and nephews...You may not care about your children and future but desi people do care about their families and extended families!

Then I will put it bluntly -- LEAVE. This is America, not Pakistan or France or Great Britain or Russia. We have our ways and it is up to YOU to adjust to US, not the other way around. I am an immigrant to the US. I adjusted and if I can, so can others.

And here comes the child! No wonder you are irked by a psychological evaluation for owning a gun!

Perhaps we should psych eval every religionist since we do not know what they are liable to do in their religious fever?

 

[VCheng]

Regulating is regulating....

ESP when it comes to national interest...I doubt it is in nation's interest to get more people killed every now and then!

Except that the rights and privileges for citizens are regulated differently than those for visitors due to the very basic distinction that continues to elude you.

Besides, it is those dumb Murrikan citizens and their due processes that get to determine what to do in their own country and how to serve their own national interests, not the rest of the world.

 

[Dubious]

PLUS citizens are regulated too through laws:
https://www.usa.gov/laws-and-regulations


This was citizens' rights but was violated under national security:

• Fourth Amendment: Protection against unreasonable search and seizure.

• Eighth Amendment: Protection against excessive bail (money to release a person from jail), stiff fines, and cruel and unusual punishment.
• Ninth Amendment: Because there are so many basic human rights, not all of them could be listed in the Constitution. This amendment means that the rights that are enumerated cannot infringe upon rights that are not listed in the Constitution.

How many were violated during 9/11 searches?

That was the need of the hr...and now gun regulation is the need of the hr!

Except that the rights and privileges for citizens are regulated differently than those for visitors due to the very basic distinction that continues to elude you.

It doesnt "elude" me...It continues to elude a certain member that guns need to be regulated and that regulation doesnt mean a ban!

He has given me all examples from left to right but has not presented a single case as to why a gun should not be regulated despite agreeing it can kill! He has gone as far as saying a car can kill and yet the car is regulated but god forbid a gun being regulated?

Besides, it is those dumb Murrikan citizens and their due processes that get to determine what to do in their own country and how to serve their own national interests, not the rest of the world.

Yes it is up to them to decide and they arent for the guns...So, it isnt just the rest of the world! But your very next generation!