American kids are 'political pawns' in gun control battle, CEOs say

[Dubious]

killings by terrorists,

When did America do this? Isnt it "supposedly" "fixing" it in Afghanistan and Iraq?

 

[Cobra Arbok]

Based on what survey? Kindly also paste the sources like this one: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/27/sta...ms-deaths-heres-how-your-state-stacks-up.html


You got ONLY 1 state right! https://www.cheatsheet.com/culture/states-loosest-gun-laws.html/


No state permit is required to possess a rifle, shotgun or handgun. Wyoming respects the right of law abiding citizens to openly carry a handgun. Any person 21 years of age or older, who is not prohibited possessor, may carry a weapon openly or concealed without the need for a license.


Concealed carry permits/licenses are issued by the Attorney General. The application for a concealed carrypermit/license must be processed within 60 days of the application being received. North Dakota gun laws do not require you to inform law enforcement you are carrying a firearm.


Maine gun laws operate on an “Unrestricted” and “Shall Issue” policy. The later being needed forreciprocity with other states. No permit is required to conceal or open carry a firearm if the carrier is 21 years or older and meets all the criteria set out in the law.


Must be 21 to purchase any firearm, unless one is 18 and has passed an approved hunter safety course. A gun control bill, passed on March 30th, 2018, bans sale of magazines of more than 10 rounds for long guns and 15 rounds for pistols. It was signed by Governor Scott on April 11.


well that is what the wiki link you sent me said...Guess you dont even read what you share


Interesting question, would you like to die in a mass shooting (which apparently you dont consider violent) or violently in 1 of your said violent crimes?
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2018/02/gun-violence-public-health/553430/


So police and law enforcement are useless? Good to know that!

You do know there is no proper detailed study on gun crimes?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...as-been-shut-down-for-20-years/?noredirect=on

https://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/05/politics/lack-of-gun-research-and-funding-study/index.html

https://abcnews.go.com/US/federal-government-study-gun-violence/story?id=50300379

So not sure which stats you will be picking up to show me

That literally means the country's laws are no good and alone cant deter people. Nor can the law enforces protect people ...so bad that people need to take guns into their own hands!


Yet the indians on this thread seem to think otherwise


I never saw any religious book that even as much as bit a human while bullets do result in death...again not the same...

Anyway, carry on killing your next generation...everyone has tried to knock some sense in y'all

your statistics count suicides, hunting accidents, self defence, and police shootings as homicides. In fact, Homicide does not mean murder, but any unnatural cause of death

Yes Vermont's governor is a POS who betrayed his constituents and signed gun laws. However,Vermont has literally been the safest state in the country for decades, and it has had almost no gun laws. In fact I don't think those laws go into effect until next year. Vermont is also a constitutional carry state, which means anyone legally able to buy a gun can carry it without a permit. New Hampshire and Maine have the same law, although both of them have real republican governors. Unfortunate dems just took over Maine so they are probably going to try and restrict people's rights.
BTW, almost all my family lives in New Hampshire and I have been to every state in Northern New England, so I know the region well.

Anyway, here is a list of homicide rate per state. remember homicide does not equal murder, so the murder rate is even lower.

Notice the safest region is the great plains? Wyoming has a homicide rate of over 2.6%. Wyoming has under 2.17% Utah is even lower at 1% North Dakota is just over 1% Gun toting Indiana, Mike Pence's state, has a lower homiced rate than gun-control Illinois, Obama's state. also, Texas and California have the exact same homicide rate, despite California having more gun control. Florida also has a higher homicide rate than Alabama, despite Florida having more gun control. In fact, you cannot even openly carry a gun in Florida unless you are Hunitng, fishing, hiking or camping. I can go on and on. One interesting correlation is demographics. what race makes up the overwhelming majority of Wyoming, Massachusetts, North Dakota, Vermont, Maine, and New Hampshire? Meanwhile, Mississippi, Lousiana, and alabama have the largest percentages of Black people. Even Texas, California, and florida have similar demographics, and they have similar homicide rates. So it looks like guns are not the root cause of the problem, despite what Washington post, CNN, and Mike Bloomberg want you to believe.

 

[Dubious]

your statistics count suicides, hunting accidents, self defence, and police shootings as homicides. In fact, Homicide does not mean murder, but any unnatural cause of death

Yes Vermont's governor is a POS who betrayed his constituents and signed gun laws. However,Vermont has literally been the safest state in the country for decades, and it has had almost no gun laws. In fact I don't think those laws go into effect until next year. Vermont is also a constitutional carry state, which means anyone legally able to buy a gun can carry it without a permit. New Hampshire and Maine have the same law, although both of them have real republican governors. Unfortunate dems just took over Maine so they are probably going to try and restrict people's rights.
BTW, almost all my family lives in New Hampshire and I have been to every state in Northern New England, so I know the region well.

Anyway, here is a list of homicide rate per state. remember homicide does not equal murder, so the murder rate is even lower.

Notice the safest region is the great plains? Wyoming has a homicide rate of over 2.6%. Wyoming has under 2.17% Utah is even lower at 1% North Dakota is just over 1% Gun toting Indiana, Mike Pence's state, has a lower homiced rate than gun-control Illinois, Obama's state. also, Texas and California have the exact same homicide rate, despite California having more gun control. Florida also has a higher homicide rate than Alabama, despite Florida having more gun control. In fact, you cannot even openly carry a gun in Florida unless you are Hunitng, fishing, hiking or camping. I can go on and on. One interesting correlation is demographics. what race makes up the overwhelming majority of Wyoming, Massachusetts, North Dakota, Vermont, Maine, and New Hampshire? Meanwhile, Mississippi, Lousiana, and alabama have the largest percentages of Black people. Even Texas, California, and florida have similar demographics, and they have similar homicide rates. So it looks like guns are not the root cause of the problem, despite what Washington post, CNN, and Mike Bloomberg want you to believe.

Yea I read through that but it still raises the question if there is no "proper" research to gun violations who is producing all these statistics?

 

[nahtanbob]

Yea I read through that but it still raises the question if there is no "proper" research to gun violations who is producing all these statistics?

there are lies, damn lies and there is statistics

 

[Nilgiri]

Interesting question, would you like to die in a mass shooting (which apparently you dont consider violent) or violently in 1 of your said violent crimes?
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2018/02/gun-violence-public-health/553430/

Where did I say that? I said which one is the issue....dieing/injured by a gun specifically or dieing/injured violently period?

Because to say former would mean we have to overlook the other tools that kill lot more people (baseball bats, knives, cleavers, machetes etc) in the other countries. I.e the violent crime level is more of less the same in the industrialised world (esp when accounting for drug/gang warfare in specific US areas unlike in Europe which has nothing to do with 2nd Amendment). Violent criminals will find a way to inflict murder.

So police and law enforcement are useless? Good to know that!

I said that? I'm saying let them first become 100% effective before you even start arguing for mass de-weaponisation of the civilian society....who simply arm themselves because you are not anywhere near 100% effective.

If we are after pure unnecessary deaths...by sheer level the focus should be on traffic deaths anyway.

You do know there is no proper detailed study on gun crimes?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...as-been-shut-down-for-20-years/?noredirect=on

https://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/05/politics/lack-of-gun-research-and-funding-study/index.html

https://abcnews.go.com/US/federal-government-study-gun-violence/story?id=50300379

So not sure which stats you will be picking up to show me

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhs...uld-include-how-guns-save-lives/#7c83f44d5edc

But one study ordered by the CDC and conducted by The National Academies’ Institute of Medicine and National Research Council reported that, “Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence”:

Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.

Another study estimates there are 1,029,615 DGUs per year “for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere” excluding “military service, police work, or work as a security guard,” (within the range of the National Academies’ paper), yielding an estimate of 162,000 cases per year where someone “almost certainly would have been killed” if they “had not used a gun for protection.”

(In comparison, there were 11,208 homicide deaths by firearm in the US in 2012. There were a total of 33,636 deaths due to “injury by firearms,” of which the majority were suicides, 21,175.)

So you tell me 11k per year dead by (criminal) gun.....12 to 100+ times more saved by it. And you just want to strip everyone of this effective ratio based on just one side?

That literally means the country's laws are no good and alone cant deter people. Nor can the law enforces protect people ...so bad that people need to take guns into their own hands!

Yes law enforcement (and national security) is imperfect....thus the whole point of the 2nd amendment....the protection of habeas corpus and your life is a PRE-EXISTING right to any formation of govt. The US is the ONLY country to recognise that (2nd amendment).

Just 20th century history alone is replete with examples of tyrannical govt (where this right was not afforded to the citizenry) murdering millions of people. When stuff like that has happened in the recent past....who is going to believe 100% law enforcement quality for everyone can be achieved? It can't....people have the right to arm themselves for reasonable protection and deterrence from those (incl own govt) that seek to do unwarrented harm on them....that right pre-exists and transcends any govt on earth. Its too bad actually that the US is the only country in the world to see that....probably because it was formed in opposition to the very concept of elitist govt.

@MUSTAKSHAF is very correct in his assertion that having only the bad guys and elitist govt armed is unbalanced and bad scenario. It is just another high crime + dependency on big govt cycle formed...which only benefits the bad guys and big govt in the end.

 

[Cobra Arbok]

Yea I read through that but it still raises the question if there is no "proper" research to gun violations who is producing all these statistics?

the fbi and state and local law enfoecement agencies. they keep recordes of crime statistics. And as i said, if you shoot yourself in the foot while hunting, tha is counted as a homicide when you report it to the police.

 

[Dubious]

the fbi and state and local law enfoecement agencies. they keep recordes of crime statistics. And as i said, if you shoot yourself in the foot while hunting, tha is counted as a homicide when you report it to the police.

and that shot is caused by a gun, right? so gun violence

 

[Valar.]

Guns are not the problem, some people are.

 

[Dubious]

I'm saying let them first become 100% effective

So they are not effective and have failed the nation?

we are not talking about 3rd world countries now are we?!

Where did I say that? I said which one is the issue....dieing/injured by a gun specifically or dieing/injured violently period?

Because to say former would mean we have to overlook the other tools that kill lot more people (baseball bats, knives, cleavers, machetes etc) in the other countries. I.e the violent crime level is more of less the same in the industrialised world (esp when accounting for drug/gang warfare in specific US areas unlike in Europe which has nothing to do with 2nd Amendment). Violent criminals will find a way to inflict murder.



I said that? I'm saying let them first become 100% effective before you even start arguing for mass de-weaponisation of the civilian society....who simply arm themselves because you are not anywhere near 100% effective.

If we are after pure unnecessary deaths...by sheer level the focus should be on traffic deaths anyway.



https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhs...uld-include-how-guns-save-lives/#7c83f44d5edc

But one study ordered by the CDC and conducted by The National Academies’ Institute of Medicine and National Research Council reported that, “Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence”:

Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.

Another study estimates there are 1,029,615 DGUs per year “for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere” excluding “military service, police work, or work as a security guard,” (within the range of the National Academies’ paper), yielding an estimate of 162,000 cases per year where someone “almost certainly would have been killed” if they “had not used a gun for protection.”

(In comparison, there were 11,208 homicide deaths by firearm in the US in 2012. There were a total of 33,636 deaths due to “injury by firearms,” of which the majority were suicides, 21,175.)

So you tell me 11k per year dead by (criminal) gun.....12 to 100+ times more saved by it. And you just want to strip everyone of this effective ratio based on just one side?



Yes law enforcement (and national security) is imperfect....thus the whole point of the 2nd amendment....the protection of habeas corpus and your life is a PRE-EXISTING right to any formation of govt. The US is the ONLY country to recognise that (2nd amendment).

Just 20th century history alone is replete with examples of tyrannical govt (where this right was not afforded to the citizenry) murdering millions of people. When stuff like that has happened in the recent past....who is going to believe 100% law enforcement quality for everyone can be achieved? It can't....people have the right to arm themselves for reasonable protection and deterrence from those (incl own govt) that seek to do unwarrented harm on them....that right pre-exists and transcends any govt on earth. Its too bad actually that the US is the only country in the world to see that....probably because it was formed in opposition to the very concept of elitist govt.

@MUSTAKSHAF is very correct in his assertion that having only the bad guys and elitist govt armed is unbalanced and bad scenario. It is just another high crime + dependency on big govt cycle formed...which only benefits the bad guys and big govt in the end.

ok to the rest

 

[Cobra Arbok]

and that shot is caused by a gun, right? so gun violence

i guess that depends on you definition of violence. I consider violence t be committing harm against someone else. And the fact is most of that type of violence are gangs shooting each other in black neighborhoods in cities run by democats with strict gun control. the reason why mass shootings and school shootings get so much coverage is because they rarley happen, and they can be used to push the liberals' agenda of gun oniscation because they make suburban whites scared of an almost nonexistant threat.

 

[Nilgiri]

So they are not effective and have failed the nation?

we are not talking about 3rd world countries now are we?!

It varies a lot my friend.

Some places in the US, law enforcement/security is quite good....other places not so much (and they can be large population density areas too).

Till it reaches a threshold of effectiveness, I dont think the conversation should be on how to strip people there of sometimes their only effective protection against violent criminals and gangs.

Rather the onus should be on the law enforcement and their superiors (in govt) to crack down and rid those areas of the high criminal element FIRST. There have been success stories on this (someone brought up NYC earlier as example if you look at the crime wave it had before in the 70s etc and compare to how it was brought under control by zero-tolerance attitude by local govt in the 90s).

So I would like to see similar replicated across the cities still affected by it....and then once that is done and dusted....we can start to talk about the common sense gun control etc in those areas to hit the last few % of gun homicides that happen outside the general crime phenomena. But simply slapping on a "gun free zone" kind of approach is a very bad bandaid...because the symptom is not the cut/bruise you are covering up....but something lot deeper than that. The gun homicides in "gun free zone" Chicago (has some of the highest gun control legislation in the US) is good example...because simply the criminal gangs (that are causing most of the deaths) dont give a damn about the gun laws (so it ends up de-arming only those that respect the law i.e regular civilians) and the police are doing very poorly there (because they are hamstrung by lot of things like politics from the mayor etc) in cracking down on it. Chicago just posted another record (beating its own earlier one) of most homicides and gun homicides in 2017...and 2018 looks to be even more....all in "gun free zone/high gun control" kind of place There needs to be a change in the approach of how to tackle this...there is no simple "ban guns" kind of solution.

 

[M.R.9]

Most Americans agree that a president's children should not be used as pawns in apolitical fight-- :/

 

[nahtanbob]

and that shot is caused by a gun, right? so gun violence

this is also gun violence
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...y-shoots-escaped-inmate-who-broke-her-n944011

your statistics count suicides, hunting accidents, self defence, and police shootings as homicides. In fact, Homicide does not mean murder, but any unnatural cause of death

Yes Vermont's governor is a POS who betrayed his constituents and signed gun laws. However,Vermont has literally been the safest state in the country for decades, and it has had almost no gun laws. In fact I don't think those laws go into effect until next year. Vermont is also a constitutional carry state, which means anyone legally able to buy a gun can carry it without a permit. New Hampshire and Maine have the same law, although both of them have real republican governors. Unfortunate dems just took over Maine so they are probably going to try and restrict people's rights.
BTW, almost all my family lives in New Hampshire and I have been to every state in Northern New England, so I know the region well.

Anyway, here is a list of homicide rate per state. remember homicide does not equal murder, so the murder rate is even lower.

Notice the safest region is the great plains? Wyoming has a homicide rate of over 2.6%. Wyoming has under 2.17% Utah is even lower at 1% North Dakota is just over 1% Gun toting Indiana, Mike Pence's state, has a lower homiced rate than gun-control Illinois, Obama's state. also, Texas and California have the exact same homicide rate, despite California having more gun control. Florida also has a higher homicide rate than Alabama, despite Florida having more gun control. In fact, you cannot even openly carry a gun in Florida unless you are Hunitng, fishing, hiking or camping. I can go on and on. One interesting correlation is demographics. what race makes up the overwhelming majority of Wyoming, Massachusetts, North Dakota, Vermont, Maine, and New Hampshire? Meanwhile, Mississippi, Lousiana, and alabama have the largest percentages of Black people. Even Texas, California, and florida have similar demographics, and they have similar homicide rates. So it looks like guns are not the root cause of the problem, despite what Washington post, CNN, and Mike Bloomberg want you to believe.

some folks do not have the intellectual honesty to analyze issues

 

[Sine Nomine]

@MUSTAKSHAF is very correct in his assertion that having only the bad guys and elitist govt armed is unbalanced and bad scenario. It is just another high crime + dependency on big govt cycle formed...which only benefits the bad guys and big govt in the end

Here take the case of Xinjiang,CPC has made it a Police state and they are watching everything but that all has sometimes failed to stop people wielding kitchen knives for spreading mayhem.
Every person should be armed and must knew proper usage of that tool.When thugs are banging at your door,cops coming in 15 minutes are not your chance rather then the weapon you have got for your defence is your chance.

 

[Cobra Arbok]

Here take the case of Xinjiang,CPC has made it a Police state and they are watching everything but that all has sometimes failed to stop people wielding kitchen knives for spreading mayhem.
Every person should be armed and must knew proper usage of that tool.When thugs are banging at your door,cops coming in 15 minutes are not your chance rather then the weapon you have got for your defence is your chance.

I have been saying the only thing Pakistan does better than india is gun rights. Under no circumstances should Pakistanis give up their guns.