8th anniversary of Gujarat genocide. Never forget

[jinxeD_girl]

Haven't been to that thread but if those are indeed your views I must say they are the first from a Pakistani on this forum.

No! check that thread and also the article I posted there from Pakistani Newspaper "Dawn".. A Mughal Named Humayun

and I think no Pakistani objected to that article and many gave me thumbs up!

 

[tadka]

I don't like to reply to off-topic posts but, in any case, your claims were already debunked by jinxed_girl. There is no evidence of mass conversions in Pakistan and most of Pakistan's Hindus lived in Bangladesh.

Secondly, the issue is not Australian TV or Nigerian TV but the firsthand interviews with victims and criminals which demolish the official story.

In inda go to a slum and a bottle
of tarragon and 100 bucks and a south Indian will say he is Kashmiri mujahiden. We know that in India there are fake seculars who esort to these methods to defame the county overseas. There is no credbipity of those guys. I know that there were two guys who boasted ans we have never heard again from them. If there was trtu in it the Indian media wold have don eveyrhing to discredit modi. You won't undestand .

 

[tadka]

Unlike 99% Indian Muslims... Pakistanis are NOT 99% indic... You should blame that to British or whatever for giving us 60% Afghan lands... how many times I have told you that 40% Pakistanis have nothing to do with India (Pushtuns, Balochis and Farsiwans and other Iranic groups have nothing in common with INDIA)...

Let's just say majority are indic . Happy? Hehe

 

[RobbieS]

No! check that thread and also the article I posted there from Pakistani Newspaper "Dawn".. A Mughal Named Humayun

and I think no Pakistani objected to that article and many gave me thumbs up!

I am happily surprised to see that. In fact a few months back I had a similar discussion with a very feisty female member on pdf and she was proud to have the Abdalis, the Nadir Shahs and the Timur's as her heroes. I am glad that we are on the same page. Look forward to having many interesting discussions with you.

 

[tadka]

That map isn't absurd but obsolete. That study on Indian Muslims was done by Times Magazine in 2003...

TIMEasia Magazine: India's Great Divide

and I am sure lots of things have changed by then (like GDP, unemployment etc) .. The reason I posted it here was to show the number of Kashmiris killed. which is again a very low official figure... but atleast it is not coming from Indian or Pakistani website but from some neutral independent study.

Ok maybe Kashmir numbers r true . But the majroty of deaths are bacause f terrrorist sent by Pak and maojrity are not even Kashmiri who died but Pak terrorists

 

[Bang Galore]

These are official 'estimates' from the same government which was complicit in the massacre. As indicated, independent estimates put the figure closer to the stated 2000, mostly Muslims.

I was not planning to reply to your posts since I agree with most of your arguments. As i have said earlier in this thread, there are no excuses for the failure of the Indian state for not being able to protect its citizens no matter what their religion. I also have little time for an argument that draws comparison with any other country including Pakistan. What Pakistan does or does not do should have no bearing on the responsibilities of the Indian state.

However I disagree with you on "official figures". While they primarily do come from the state where the riots took place, they are cross verified by the central government and the NHRC which is an independent statutory body. This can also be cross checked through the number of claims for compensation filed. Also since these figures are collated at the district level, there would have to be extreme widespread complicity of all individual government officials which is unlikely to be the case. Any pressure from the government would soon be reported in the national media. This is not to suggest that there are no under reporting of the figures. My point is that it is very subjective as to which figures to believe. In the absence of clear proof that there has been deliberate obfuscation of figures, it would be more sensible to take an official figure even if they are not absolutely accurate as the primary barometer while discussing them.

Yeah, we never know for sure the real numbers. Official figures usually report low numbers and victims usually try to exaggerate the numbers. Therefore, I don't trust both sources. What about we take average

Sikh victims say = 10,000
Official Report say = 3,000

10,000 + 3,000 / 2 = Approx 6000 Sikhs killed

These are human beings we are talking about. Let's not resort to silly use of Maths based on suspect information to prove a point here. The figures are again more likely to be closer to the official information than not which makes it no less horrifying than if the alternative were true.

 

[tadka]

Now the apologists are using ancient history to justify Gujarat.

This is significant because it illustrates the mindset of the people who committed the massacre. Given the opportunity, these people will commit another Gujarat and shift the blame to 'ancient invaders' and 'mass conversions'.

Guj was a riot and went out of hand. It was nt state sponsored. State sponsorship of terror is not indias core competency *hint hint*. No one is justifying riots but only saying you don't hav to poke your nose inndan internal mater when you yourslef have laws that allow discrimination of non muslimes

 

[jinxeD_girl]

Ok maybe Kashmir numbers r true . But the majroty of deaths are bacause f terrrorist sent by Pak and maojrity are not even Kashmiri who died but Pak terrorists

But that TIMES MAGAZINE article was not blaming the conditions and death of Indian Muslims (including Kashmiri Muslims) on Pakistan though..

 

[Developereo]

I agree there was tacit local government understanding that allowed things to degenerate to horrendous levels. This was pretty similar to what happened during 1984 anti-Sikh riots in Delhi.

It was more than tacit. Police literally stood by and said, "we have no orders to defend you". In some cases, census data was used to guide mobs to Muslims' homes.

According to HRW and others, police still harass witnesses and activists. As the Australian TV report showed, the justice system is corrupt and show outright favoritism to alleged criminals.

Even then that's not reason enough for Pakistanis to raise a bogey over it. By doing that not only are you encouraging interference in internal affairs of a country but are making grounds ripe for a similar interference in your affairs. Something that is to the detriment of the neigbourhood.

At some point, gross human rights abuses stop being an 'internal matter'. An pogrom organized and facilitated by security forces would qualify as one.

Indians comment on Pakistan's internal matters all the time.

Conversion didnt start after independence. It started long before that. Unless the entire pakistan claims to be from Arab decent from the first to bring Islam.
It doesnt mean anything when you say Indian muslims are converts from Hindus if you are trying to hint at anything there. Your fore fathers were Indians and they too would have converted at some point.

Pakistani culture is not a copy of Indian culture. While Indian/Hindu culture is an important and valuable part of our make up, we also incorporate Persian, Arab, Afghan and other influences.

Haha.. Now you are saying that you have the right to poke your nose becase Muslims were killed inguj and you support all Muslims. Ut when I say that Muslims killed millions and we wil never forget you are saying you are Pakistani. So decide. If you are pak stop BEng concerned about Indians. If you want topple your nose answer the pogrom of muslimes invasion

Here's a thought: maybe you can view Indian Muslims as fellow Indian citizens rather than as a symbol of past wrongs.

In inda go to a slum and a bottle
of tarragon and 100 bucks and a south Indian will say he is Kashmiri mujahiden. We know that in India there are fake seculars who esort to these methods to defame the county overseas. There is no credbipity of those guys. I know that there were two guys who boasted ans we have never heard again from them. If there was trtu in it the Indian media wold have don eveyrhing to discredit modi. You won't undestand .

So now you are claiming that the victims and criminals interviewed were fakes? I won't even bother responding to your nonsense allegation.

 

[jinxeD_girl]

Let's just say majority are indic . Happy? Hehe

yeah and as a Pakistani we have to respect the feelings of our Pushtun and Balochi brothers (if they invaded us in the past that is history)... now they are Pakistanis...

 

[tadka]

Sir , does it matter, if anyone is fascinated by arabs ,persians and Turks, please let them be!! lol

kaua chale Hans ki chaal

 

[tadka]

Let us get some facts straight here..

1. I am Muslim, but I am not religious. I have supported Hindus and Sikhs on this forum alot.

2. I didn't start this post.. I don't know who did...

3. Whether Hindus or Muslims... they are Gujaratis... and I have no connection with any Gujarati.. For me they are Indians... and it is not my problem what goes on in Tamil Nadu or Gujarat... I don't give a damn about Indians...

4. If you bring Pakistan in the discussion and spread your false propaganda, then ofcourse I have to defend my country...

great post. But on last point no on spread propaganda ab Pakistan

 

[jinxeD_girl]

Originally Posted by thebrownguy View Post
Sir , does it matter, if anyone is fascinated by arabs ,persians and Turks, please let them be!! lol

Brownie,

It is your tadka brother who brought the killings of Hindus over several thousand years to justify what is going on in Gujarat. And I said, he should seriously join some Afghan, Arab or whatever forum and ask them why they were invading you instead of giving headache to us..

 

[tadka]

But that TIMES MAGAZINE article was not blaming the conditions and death of Indian Muslims (including Kashmiri Muslims) on Pakistan though..

Ok lol you got me there. I kind of forgot what I wanted to say. I only hope no more sh1t happens between the people of the world

 

[jinxeD_girl]

great post. But on last point no on spread propaganda ab Pakistan

Can you please type from your regular keyboard.. Now they are getting really annoying and hard to read..

All the anti Pakistan posts about Pakistan on this forum by Indian members.. talking about OUR internal issues... and you are saying no one is spreading propaganda against Pakistan.. hmmmm!