Why Su-35 wouldn't pose any serious threat to India's Rafale

[UKBengali]

The Indians are just too funny on this thread!

They are acting like the Rafale will have the latest US radars and avionics, when the French are around a decade behind the US.

Lastly, there is no actual official confirmation from China that they will buy this aircraft anyway.

 

[DrSomnath999]

Oh goodness, LPI is one of the most misused and overused terms.

mate!!!
plz dont get carried away with nationalistic feelings

try to understand with a rationale mind

Russian philosophy of BVR warfare beleives long range of detection of aerial targets ( western fighters) through powerful radars & engaging with long range missiles & getting away from their adversary as soon as possible

they have built consistently a powerful series of radar starting from BARS in SU 30, to Irbis E in Su 35 with 300-400 km detection range .

Western nations (US/ european ) fighter aircraft making countries knew this & they built specifically fighters / AWACS specifically bearing this thing in mind so they built planes with highly sophiscated ESM systems
to counter that advantage.This makes them able to detect russian planes at much further distances away than their own radars
could have detected the russian planes.

The point i want to say regarding LPI is russian radar like Bars or Irbis E which are hybrid radars ( AESA + PESA) may boast of
LPI but in reality Western ESM systems outclass them .

The fact is the battle between LPI capabilty of any radar (AESA or PESA)vs ESM the ESM usually gets the upperhand

In any case prove your point with solid and actual sources. So far most of your claims have been speculative and highly bias.

I have posted every point with sources ,Yes u can say some sources are french which defintely exaggerate many things to rafale 's advnatage but the results were indeed true facts .

 

[bloo]

The Indians are just too funny on this thread!

They are acting like the Rafale will have the latest US radars and avionics, when the French are around a decade behind the US.

Lastly, there is no actual official confirmation from China that they will buy this aircraft anyway.

Not as funny as the occasional BDeshis.
If u have something to say then do provide logical facts and not ur insecure rants, lest ur point remains moot.

 

[ptldM3]

mate!!!
plz dont get carried away with nationalistic feelings

try to understand with a rationale mind

Russian philosophy of BVR warfare beleives long range of detection of aerial targets ( western fighters) through powerful radars & engaging with long range missiles & getting away from their adversary as soon as possible

they have built consistently a powerful series of radar starting from BARS in SU 30, to Irbis E in Su 35 with 300-400 km detection range .

Western nations (US/ european ) fighter aircraft making countries knew this & they built specifically fighters / AWACS specifically bearing this thing in mind so they built planes with highly sophiscated ESM systems
to counter that advantage.This makes them able to detect russian planes at much further distances away than their own radars
could have detected the russian planes.

The point i want to say regarding LPI is russian radar like Bars or Irbis E which are hybrid radars ( AESA + PESA) may boast of
LPI but in reality Western ESM systems outclass them .

The fact is the battle between LPI capabilty of any radar (AESA or PESA)vs ESM the ESM usually gets the upperhand



I have posted every point with sources ,Yes u can say some sources are french which defintely exaggerate many things to rafale 's advnatage but the results were indeed true facts .

There is nothing nationalistic on my side the problem I have is that you have provided zero evidence to support your claim. You have made a claim that western systems (which is very broad) are superior in LPI/ESM yet there is no information on the Irbis-E.

 

[UKBengali]

Not as funny as the occasional BDeshis.
If u have something to say then do provide logical facts and not ur insecure rants, lest ur point remains moot.

So the French are now as advanced in avionics as the US?

No facts from Indians about Rafale's actual capabilities as it is just conjecture, when it is well known that the US leads countries like France by ~ decade in avionics.

 

[DrSomnath999]

And all the scenario is in the favor of Rafale.
The well built technically sound boxer is not yet upto the mark.. It would get only after production starts.
Meanwhile the Heavy weight boxer is also working Hard at Gym to knock out the medium weight technical boxer.

thats wrong it is upto the mark as it had started production with upgrades like operational aesa radar many other upgreades


by that time heavy wt boxer gets ready Medium wt boxer could have evolved further bagging more tricks & techniques in his kitty

IBRIS-E can operate LPI at 5-6kW... so you can call it pen and paper If you want... one of the basic aim with Su35 was to reduce the signature hence IBRIS-E was made with two 10KW TWT... so that power in LPI mode can be good enough without decreasing range performance much as the Structural RCS was already high due to size... at such power in LPI it can detect rafale and spectra would be able to do nothing.
Good sidelobe performance helps in power manage

LPI is not only dependent on power management

but also
a) compression of pulses
b) increasing band with of pulses
c) reduction of secondary lobes
the fact is PESA cant achieve LPI efficiency of an AESA no matter how much u boast






""Sidelobe of a radar has a demerit ,enemy jammers usually inject false target into it's radar through it's sidelobes & Spectra is
a master in it""

from this only one can guess how authentic ur claims about detection of Rafale & spectra could do nothing ???

You can call this meaningless... But the fact is that Su30 have already been tested with PAK FA radar... infact the 1st test bed was a Su30 so it is very much same as Rafale... If the customer demands and meets the cost AESA can be installed as it would be done on Rafale too.

" can" is a meaningless in the sense as we should debate on present scenario ,future scenario has no authencity in it .Russian selling AESA radar enabled SU 35 would be suicidal for them only as they would Copy paste into their own jets for ex J20

Like wise the Su35 has its own package available and can be installed on it without any fuss... you don't know how many planes China is ordering and concluded Su35s future... neither do you know the export package China has considered and is being offered.

but their package would contain only russian system but our rafale package would contain even foreign systems like weapons ,Laser pods & even systems like CFT on demand

The Radar used on PAK FA is very much compatible with Su 35 or Su 30... Infact that radar was tested on a Su 30 test bed.
Other than that Rafale too don't have AESA its under evaluation phase.

They wont sell Pakfa radar in Su 35 to china that would be installed it for their own planes
We are not fighting with russian air force

Rafale is already having production aesa

 

[DrSomnath999]

You have not even said one word about spectra's main advantage...

Passive guidance are available on 4.5++ gen. planes like Rafale/EF2K/Su30/Su35.... what make Rafale's Spectra better is its Active wave cancellation jamming where Spectra creates a false return of Rafale to enemy radar and enemy radar thinks it as some bird flying by and is fooled.

i replied according to your post why should i explain more about spectra until it is not asked

Passive guidance
are of 2 types
1) IRST- IR signatures of a plane
2) ESM - radar emitters whether air borne / ground

in both Rafale has the advantage over all it's adversary u mention

FSO has detection of 130km check others

SPECTRA has passive detction range of more than 200+ km & it can cue active radar guided BVRAAM missiles without turning on
it's own AESA radar while others can only cue anti radiation missiles which are not effective against fighters may be effective against SAM radars & AWACS



the secret thing is SPECTRA NG with GaN modules would even have further range than it's predecessor

Such technique on Spectra is not advanced enough to work on modern Phased Array radars which have ESA ability however in future it will be developed with such ability... now once that ability is achieved it would shoot a F-22 out of sky without F-22 knowing it.[assuming F-22 to remain on same technical level as it is now]

As of now spectra works only on mechanically steered slotted wave guide radars like the ones on F-16block2, F-15, Gripen etc..

LOLLZ

seriously u need to learn more about Spectra

it is capable of Jamming aesa radar & ur talking it would be unable to work on russian PESA radar
2)THALES AND ELECTRONIC WARFARE:

http://www.thalesgroup.com/Press_Releases/Documents/aerospace_pr_Rafale_press_kit_131109/

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

@DrSomnath999
how is this passive detection of spectra happen with out emitting anything ?is it from the three rwr replaced on the rafale ? or something else ?
if it can detect passively for 200 km what will be the tracking range and weapon firing range on air to air ?
I would like to have a link about this 200 passive detection claim.

 

[bloo]

So the French are now as advanced in avionics as the US?

No facts from Indians about Rafale's actual capabilities as it is just conjecture, when it is well known that the US leads countries like France by ~ decade in avionics.

Oh really?
At best u r full of premature evaluation and DEAR, the way u reply anyone will come to find out that ur brain is made of conjectures.

MDPU processor
RBE2-AESA
Front Sector Optronic (FSO)
multi-sensor data fusion (MSDF)
IFF
Areos Recon-pod
Spectra-EW suite


The very fact that u r critical without a millimeter of clue in your head about any technical aspects of the planes explains that u came here to troll just coz you can't bear to watch us prosper. As some dude said "People mostly read something with the intent of replying not understanding" and so are you.
LOL F-16IN was rejected for Rafale, that should have been enough to end ur American fanboyism.

decade in avionics........?
pffffff......you are definitely braindead coz even the Americans don't overestimate themselves that much.

 

[UKBengali]

Oh really?
At best u r full of premature evaluation and DEAR, the way u reply anyone will come to find out that ur brain is made of conjectures.

MDPU processor
RBE2-AESA
Front Sector Optronic (FSO)
multi-sensor data fusion (MSDF)
IFF
Areos Recon-pod
Spectra-EW suite


The very fact that u r critical without a millimeter of clue in your head about any technical aspects of the planes explains that u came here to troll just coz you can't bear to watch us prosper. As some dude said "People mostly read something with the intent of replying not understanding" and so are you.
LOL F-16IN was rejected for Rafale, that should have been enough to end ur American fanboyism.

decade in avionics........?
pffffff......you are definitely braindead coz even the Americans don't overestimate themselves that much.

You really need to study radar history of both the US and France and then you may understand what I mean.

Generally the French have trailed the US by around 10 years when it comes to technology such as look down-shoot down and AESA radars.

And we have some Indian claiming that Spectra can jam an AESA radar just because the French have said so


US >> UK > France when it comes to military technology.

F-16IN has nowhere near the level of technology that the US is really capable of. They keep that for their best stuff like the F-22

I am done with you and the rest of the clueless Indians on this thread.

 

[DARKY]

thats wrong it is upto the mark as it had started production with upgrades like operational aesa radar many other upgreades

That's marketing for you... going by that Su 35 had an AESA Zhuk-A ready much before.... I would like to point out that their developments in Phased Array both Active and Passive antenna rivaled that of US however declining economy and political issues put the developments off track by 10 years or so else If they can make BARS in 90s they can surely make an APG-77 in 2000.

by that time heavy wt boxer gets ready Medium wt boxer could have evolved further bagging more tricks & techniques in his kitty

All it takes is one knock out puch for the medium weight...


LPI is not only dependent on power management

but also
a) compression of pulses [which comes with power management]
b) increasing band with of pulses [aperture size large antenna high gains]
c) reduction of secondary lobes[which happens when you distribute power to side lobes]
the fact is PESA cant achieve LPI efficiency of an AESA no matter how much u boast

Depends on the construction of antenna its design and power source






""Sidelobe of a radar has a demerit ,enemy jammers usually inject false target into it's radar through it's sidelobes & Spectra is
a master in it""

from this only one can guess how authentic ur claims about detection of Rafale & spectra could do nothing ???

This is where signal processing, receiver path, low noise and high gain antenna comes into play... I hope you have seen the computer of BARS radar.








" can" is a meaningless in the sense as we should debate on present scenario ,future scenario has no authencity in it .Russian selling AESA radar enabled SU 35 would be suicidal for them only as they would Copy paste into their own jets for ex J20

Thats another question.. what they might do is unknown to both of us... hence the debate is somewhat baseless.. we only have Ideas just like any other member here.



but their package would contain only russian system but our rafale package would contain even foreign systems like weapons ,Laser pods & even systems like CFT on demand

agreed Indian package could have Israeli, French, Indian, Russian, and even other European and American parts and systems.

They wont sell Pakfa radar in Su 35 to china that would be installed it for their own planes
We are not fighting with russian air force

Rafale is already having production aesa

They can sell Zhuk AESA... Chinese have favored Zhuk radars in the past... also depends on how effective the Indian lobbyists have been there in Moscow and what are the plans with Super-30 upgrade.

 

[DARKY]

the secret thing is SPECTRA NG with GaN modules would even have further range than it's predecessor

NG would have GaN emitters which would be powerful enough against Phased array both active and passive depending on how advanced they become with Digital signal processing and management.

LOLLZ

seriously u need to learn more about Spectra

it is capable of Jamming aesa radar & ur talking it would be unable to work on russian PESA radar
2)THALES AND ELECTRONIC WARFARE:

http://www.thalesgroup.com/Press_Releases/Documents/aerospace_pr_Rafale_press_kit_131109/

The document talks about AESA emitters used in SPECTRA suite/package.... and not jamming AESA radars.

Look I am not a rafale hater... it is better plane than Su35 overall aspect considered what rafale can do in A2G is unmatched as of now.. however in A2A it has a hard competition with Su35.... now force multipliers, SAMs etc also comes in consideration and rafael suddenly becomes even better... and there's always the METEOR with largest No-Escape-Zone... however one on one A2A Su35 has upper hand.

 

[DARKY]

You really need to study radar history of both the US and France and then you may understand what I mean.

Nobody wants to understand you.... you are very good at cheer-leading on Chinese threads why waste time here.
AFA AESA jamming is concerned yes Spectra can jam AESA... depending on which mode of jamming you are talking about.

And there's always IRST.

 

[gambit]

Not sure if the above is from a real event or not, but am willing to be generous and accept it as real -- for now.

Since many believes that some European fighters can and have successfully radar locked the F-22 and did so without knowing the full ROE of that exercise, on the generosity that the above is from a real event, I suggest people look carefully at the F-22's underside -- radar enhancer.

The design is called a 'luneberg lens'.

RCS Radar Cross Section, Lüneberg Reflector lensref - Luneburg radar

The Luneberg reflector gives an homogeneous response inside a wide angle. It is an ideal passive responder, perfect for highlighting, and eventually monitoring the radar target to which it is attached, with a high level of security.
The Luneberg lens is the most efficient passive radar reflector available.
The Luneberg reflector requires no power supply nor maintenance.

Without the enhancer, not likely that the radar could get a lock.

 

[帅的一匹]

I don't believe rafale could take down F22 in a real event,USAAF seems reserved in the excercise with France. I personally suggest China should go for few squadrons of SU35 as political support to Putin goverment.