Why Su-35 wouldn't pose any serious threat to India's Rafale

[DrSomnath999]

sir i have a simple question that why was the IAF not interested in Su-35BM when it was offered to them by the Russians?i mean if we would have bought around 100 Su-35BMs (please don't bring the financial problems as we all know that if the IAF wanted this aircraft badly it would have definitely went ahead and purchased them and the cost of acquisition would have been around $7-8 billions) in addition to the MMRCA then we could have easily retired all the Mig-27s from the IAF and would have assigned the A2G role to the Rafales and Su-35 would be our premium air dominance fighter in additon to the Su-30MKI.can you shed some light in this matter please.

Russian SU 35 was developed much later after SU 30 mki

& india already had SU 30 & india decided it's better for them to upgrade SU 30 rather than buying SU 35
reason plz refer 2nd part of this thread

 

[ptldM3]

ya it's true french media usually promotes rafale in a loud manner but u should indeed know that facts are indeed correct but they exaggerate those facts to suit their needs

Kopp was an alarmist in australian air power website though it's some posts are higly biased

Russian radar are indeed powerful with greater detection range but it's only demerit is it's LPI tech is inferior against highly superior western ESM platforms whther it is in AWACS, aircraft jets

Oh goodness, LPI is one of the most misused and overused terms. In any case prove your point with solid and actual sources. So far most of your claims have been speculative and highly bias.

 

[DARKY]

well 1st of all
it's not a versus thread infact it's a scenario thread
well heavy weight boxer is infact an overweight boxer which needs to keep it's fitness up agaisnt well built & techinally sound boxer & overweight boxer really lacks punch to score point compare to technically sound boxer which can punch & scores a point

And all the scenario is in the favor of Rafale.
The well built technically sound boxer is not yet upto the mark.. It would get only after production starts.
Meanwhile the Heavy weight boxer is also working Hard at Gym to knock out the medium weight technical boxer.

LPI mode is on pen & paper .When on BVR warfare one on one against rafale the Su 35's pilot by turning on it's own Pesa radar
is commiting suicide ,as Rafale's spectra can easily locate airborne radar emitters at much further range than it's own aesa radar
& can cue it's own meteor long range BVRaam missile without turning on it's own Aesa radar for stealth reason .

IBRIS-E can operate LPI at 5-6kW... so you can call it pen and paper If you want... one of the basic aim with Su35 was to reduce the signature hence IBRIS-E was made with two 10KW TWT... so that power in LPI mode can be good enough without decreasing range performance much as the Structural RCS was already high due to size... at such power in LPI it can detect rafale and spectra would be able to do nothing.

Peak power management and use of low power.

Good sidelobe performance helps in power manage

Funny thing SU 35 OLS is known to have european IIR imaging seeker
http://www.afa.org/edop/2010/PAK-FA'sFirstFlighton29JAN10REV5.pdf

& french sofradir company is pioneer in making IIR imaging seekers


the word "Can " is meaniningless

You can call this meaningless... But the fact is that Su30 have already been tested with PAK FA radar... infact the 1st test bed was a Su30 so it is very much same as Rafale... If the customer demands and meets the cost AESA can be installed as it would be done on Rafale too.

To be fair enough actually "IMO" Your "O" part from the " IMO" word of your post is baseless seriously
Like i said in my thread
SU 35 future potential depends upon it's export order ,meanwhile rafale would always be the future fighter for french & on top
of it India's MMRCA win & other export orders could expand it's future potential further
Large size & large engine makes a jack sense for better upgrade .

Like wise the Su35 has its own package available and can be installed on it without any fuss... you don't know how many planes China is ordering and concluded Su35s future... neither do you know the export package China has considered and is being offered.

China could directly buy those things rather than buying planes having it & copy pasting those components u mention

BTW SU 35 doesnt have aesa radar

The Radar used on PAK FA is very much compatible with Su 35 or Su 30... Infact that radar was tested on a Su 30 test bed.
Other than that Rafale too don't have AESA its under evaluation phase.

 

[DARKY]

haa haa

Your posts is as deceiving as the result of that match

infact in reality Su 35's Khibiny-M can only cue an anti radiation missile provided Rafale turn on it's Aesa radar ,which they usually rarely do as they depend more on passive detection with that from Spectra & FSO

meanwhile Rafale's Spectra can cue Active radar guided missiles like Meteor without turning on it's own aesa radar for stealth
reason

SO a rafale's SPECTRA with meteor would do this to SU 35 in reality

You have not even said one word about spectra's main advantage...

Passive guidance are available on 4.5++ gen. planes like Rafale/EF2K/Su30/Su35.... what make Rafale's Spectra better is its Active wave cancellation jamming where Spectra creates a false return of Rafale to enemy radar and enemy radar thinks it as some bird flying by and is fooled.

Such technique on Spectra is not advanced enough to work on modern Phased Array radars which have ESA ability however in future it will be developed with such ability... now once that ability is achieved it would shoot a F-22 out of sky without F-22 knowing it.[assuming F-22 to remain on same technical level as it is now]

As of now spectra works only on mechanically steered slotted wave guide radars like the ones on F-16block2, F-15, Gripen etc..

 

[SatishChandra07]

Nonsense, the biggest threat to our rafales comes from our amateur pilots who keep crashing these costly machines

 

[anant_s]

IAF from the very beginning didnt wanted SU 35 for MMRCA race as they knew upgrading SU 30 would do the job rather they wanted a european fighter with a future potential

Yes pretty correct. In fact with Su 30 MKI in our fleet (& that too in pretty large numbers) having SU 35 would be redundant.
I would like to point out your assessment on RCS of the two machines and as you mentioned despite being a huge beast, Rafale certainly has lower RC. Now if they integrate an equally capable weapon system with Rafale, it can take on Flanker series fighetrs with good chances of victory.
To summarize (in a way a novice would) it would not be wrong to say that you wouldnot want to put all your eggs in one (or one type) of basket.

 

[selvan33]

again misinterpretation about the intention of this thread ,it's a scenario thread not a versus thread as Critics assuming SU 35 induction by china would nullify all advantage india would have when they get rafale which is seriosly wrong

Weightt has nothing do with air superiority but avionics , stealth profile ,air to air Missiles & ECM suites has more importance

Hmmm ok i will explain about your questions.
In avinics,now both are almost same. Rafale is having IMA(integrated modular avinocs) and new Su35S is having completely new new avionics suite, including Tikhomorov’s NIIP N-035 Irbis radar with passive electronic scanning, replacing the N-001 Mech with Cassegrain parabolic antenna and mechanical beam.
In air to air missiles Su35 is superior. R 77M1 is also using ramjet propulsion what meteor is going to have and R77 is a LRAAM while meteor is a MRAAM. And important point is meteor is still under development or in testing phase. so its not good to compare it with an existing platform.
In ECM, yes here i accept thales spectra is superior but main problem is SU35 ECM (L175M Khibiny-M electronic-warfare self-defense system) features are not completely known. KNIRTI SAP-14 and SAP-518 jamming pods are also new technology which is superior than its counterparts rafale.
In stealth, here weight class plays a main role. its obvious that heavy weight fighters are with huge RCS. but dont forget new Su35S is having huge composites and aluminium lithium that drastically reduces Su35 weight and it also having new RAM coated paintings.
In engine SU35S is having Saturn 117S with all-aspect TVC nozzle while rafale's new M 88 3D thrust vectoring engine is still under development.
In maneuverability, rafale is superior because of its delta canard wing and its less weight but SU 35 also features canards which allows it for high AOA at 120°.
Now you can conclude which is better and conclusion is upto you DUde.

 

[Gandalf]

Loll
let them once fly rafale then we would see what would IAF pilots say

These the ones who flew Rafales and EFT and admit that hough Rafale is better in A2G but MKI trumps it in A2A.

 

[bloo]

Su-30MKI vs Su-35S
This was posted by an Indian Member http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/222304-su-30mki-vs-su-35s-post3660693.html#post3660693

This is not actually a typical VS thread because both these fighters are operated by friendly countries. So the probability of these 2 fighting against each other is Zero. This is just to see how these 2 compares with each other and also, gives an idea of what the Super-Sukhoi-30MKI might derive out of the Su-35S platform.

Su-35S(formerly Su-35BM) is the most recent and the most advanced of the Su-27 family. It has a all-metal structure, but unlike other Su-27 family fighters, it's comprised of titanium composites. As a result its airframe life is higher than the others. Its avionics is one of the best, and its radar is the best in the world in range. How does it compare with its cousin the successful Su-30MKI family comprising of Su-30MKI, Su-30MKM and Su-30MKA?

Below are the similarities between Su-30MKI and Su-35S:
12 Hard Points
8000kgs external ordinance
G-limit 9
Same Air-Air and Air-Ground weapons package
Has Thrust Vectoring
Can house external jammers and all varieties of pods.
Has inflight re-fueling
etc.. etc..


Differences:
Su-30MKI-
Maximum internal fuel - 9,640kgs
Max Range(without mid-air refueling) - 3000kms
Max ceiling - 17.3km
Max Speed - Mach 1.9
Canards - Yes
Crew - 2
Max Afterburner Thrust - 12500kgf, Emergency Thrust - 12800kgf
External Fuel Tanks - No
Composites - Not in significant quantity.
Empty Weight - unknown. Estimated to be around 18400kgs.
Airframe life - 3,000hrs or 15 years(at 200 hours flight time each year)
Internal Jammer - No
RCS - unofficial estimate 11.5m2
Airbrake - Yes
Supercruise- No


Su-35S-
Maximum internal fuel - 11,500kgs
Max Range(without mid-air refueling, without external fuel tanks) - 3600kms
Max ceiling - 18km
Max Speed - Mach 2.25
Canards - No (since radar isn't heavy)
Crew - 1
Max Afterburner Thrust - 14500kgf(gives a massive boost to TWR compared to Su-30MKI)
External Fuel Tanks - Yes (can carry 2 drop tanks of 1400kgs fuel in each of them)
Composites - Yes. Extensive use of Titanium Alloys.
Empty Weight - Unknown. Estimated to be around 18800kgs.
Airframe life - 6,000hrs or 30 years(at 200 hours flight time each year)
Internal Jammer - Yes
RCS - unofficial estimate between 1-3m2
Airbrake - No. Powerful modified rudders act as Airbrakes.
Supercruise - Yes

Radar-
This deserves a separate mention. Because this is where the difference is at its max.
Su-30MKI has a N-011M BARS Radar
Transmitter peak power - 5kw
Transmitter average power - 1.2kw
Can Track- 15 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 140 km(Upgraded Radar with upgraded transmitter power, if any in service, its range is unknown.)

Su-35S has N-035 IRBIS-E. The most powerful Fighter Plane mounted X Band radar in the world. Specs are as follows.
Transmitter peak power - 20kw
Transmitter average power - 5kw
Can Track - 30 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 8 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 426 km
Max Detection for 3 sqm RCS - 375 km
Max Detection for 1 sqm RCS - 285 km
Max Detection for 0.01 sqm RCS - 90 km


DATA FROM OFFICIAL SUKHOI and NIIP WEBSITES. Not Wikipedia!





For SU-35 VS Rafale Comparison,

Rafale vs SU-35

Correction:
*Su-30MKI does have supercruising.
*Though it doesn't house an internal jammer it does house an external jammer.
*And its service life is 25 years not 15.
*There are also unofficial claims of the rcs of the MKI being as low as 3-5m2(Michal Fiszer of JED)

From the posted specs, SU-30 falls way behind SU-35.

For now.
Or rather until Super Su-30MKI arrives.You should have been able to gather that much from reading the other posts.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Comparison among F-22A, Su-35, EF-2000, and RAFALE C

1. Normal take-off：
* F-22A: 27,200 kg
* Su-35: 25,300 kg
* EF-2K: 17,000 kg
* Rafale: 15,000 kg

2. MTOW：
* F-22A: 28,120 kg
* Su-35: 34,500 kg
* EF-2K: 23,500 kg
* Rafale: 24,500 kg

3. Internal Fuel：
* F-22A: 9,330 kg
* Su-35: 11,500 kg
* EF-2K: 5,000 kg
* Rafale: 4,750 kg

4. Maximal Payload：
* F-22A: unknown
* Su-35: 8,000 kg
* EF-2K: 7,500 kg+
* Rafale: 9,500 kg

5. Maximal Speed, 11,000 m：
* F-22A: 2.00 Mach+ (2.25 ~ 2.42 Mach)
* Su-35: 2.25 Mach
* EF-2K: 2.00 Mach+ (2.25 Mach)
* Rafale: 1.80 Mach+ (2.00 Mach)

6. Maximal speed, 200 m：
* F-22A: 800 kts
* Su-35: 1,400 km/hr
* EF-2K: 1.14 Mach
* Rafale: 750 kts

7. Climb rate：
* F-22A: 350 m/sec, sea-level
* Su-35: 280 m/sec+, 1,000 m
* EF-2K: 315 m/sec+, sea-level
* Rafale: 305 m/sec+, sea-level

8. Operational Altitude：
* F-22A: 70,000 fts
* Su-35: 59,000 fts
* EF-2K: 65,000 fts
* Rafale: 55,000 fts

9. Ferry range：
* F-22A: 3,500 km (Internal Fuel)
* Su-35: 4,500 km (Internal Fuel + 2000 L tanks*2)
* EF-2K: 2,600 km (Internal Fuel)
* Rafale: > 2,100 km (Internal Fuel)


10. Acceleration：

* F-22A: unknown.

* Su-35: 13.8 secs from 600 km/hr to 1,100 km/hr, and 8 secs from 1,100 km/hr to 1,300 km/hr（with 50% internal fuel, standard A-A configuration, and height of 1,000 m）.

* EF-2K: less than 20 seconds from 200 kts to Mach 0.9 (Twin-seaters with one 1,000 L tank and two ASRAAM, altitude unknown).

* Rafale: around 20 seconds from 300 km/hr to 1,000 km/hr at low altitude.


11. Normal upper G-limit：
* F-22A: +9.5G
* Su-35: +9.0G
* EF-2K: +9.0G
* Rafale: +9.0G

12. T/W ratio of normal take-off（AB / Max. Mil.）：
* F-22A: 1.17 ~ 1.30 / 0.85 ~ 0.87
* Su-35: 1.10 ~ 1.15 / 0.69 ~ 0.70
* EF-2K: 1.08 ~ 1.14 / 0.72 ~ 0.83
* Rafale: 1.02 ~ 1.03 / 0.68 ~ 0.69

13. Take-off with standard A-A configuration：
* F-22A: 244 m
* Su-35: 400 to 450 m
* EF-2K: 228 ~ 275 m（Emergency take-off）to 457 m（Normal take-off）.
* Rafale: 400 m

14. Landing：
* F-22A: unknown.
* Su-35: 650 m（with the help of braking and parachute）
* EF-2K: 500 to 700 m
* Rafale: 400 m（with the help of braking only）


15. Radar's range：

* F-22A: Tracking target of RCS = 1 m2 at the range of 200 km away --> Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 375 to 440 km away theoretically --> 329 ~ 386.

* Su-35: Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 350 to 400 km away --> 307 ~ 351.

* EF-2K: Tracking target of RCS = 5 m2 at the range of 160 ~ 185 km away --> Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 200 to 272 km away theoretically --> 175 ~ 239.

* Rafale: Detecting target of RCS = 5 m2 at the range of 130 ~ 148 km away --> Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 114 to 130 km away theoretically --> 100 ~ 114.


16. Maximal horizontal scanning angle of Radar：
* F-22A: +/- 60 degrees
* Su-35: +/-120 degrees
* EF-2K: +/- 70 degrees
* Rafale: +/- 60 degrees

17. Capability of multiple target engagement：
* F-22A: Tracking 100 and engaging 6+.
* Su-35: Tracking 30 and engaging 8.
* EF-2K: Tracking 20+ and engagine 6 to 8.
* Rafale: Tracking 40 and engaging 4 to 6.

18. Frontal minimal RCS / Ratio of RCS / Ratio of range being detected:
* F-22A: 0.00015 ~ 0.0006 m2 --> 1 ~ 4 --> 1.00 ~ 1.41
* Su-35: 1.0 ~ 3.0 m2 --> 6666 ~ 20000 --> 9.03 ~ 11.89
* EF-2K: 0.1 ~ 0.5 m2 --> 666 ~ 3333 --> 5.08 ~ 7.60
* Rafale: 0.1 ~ 0.2 m2 --> 666 ~ 1332 --> 5.08 ~ 6.04


19. Su-35 v.s other western fighters:

* Theoretically, F-22A shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 285 to 440 km / 200 to 308 km away in head to head engagement.
* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect / track F-22A at the range of 29 to 48 km / 17 to 34 km away in head to head engagement.

* Theoretically, EF-2K shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 153 to 272 km / 107 to 163 km away in head to head engagement.
* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect / track EF-2K at the range of 150 to 256 km / 90 to 180 km away in head to head engagement.

* Theoretically, Rafale shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 87 to 130 km / 52 to 91 km away in head to head engagement.
* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect / track Rafale at the range of 150 to 203 km / 90 to 142 km away in head to head engagement.

about last part well in this comparission the data is of PESA radar of Rafale not the ASEA which we are getting + the engines would be diff too

even if you don't even count that wery soon IAF will be going for the Super Sukoi Upgrades of all its MKIs which will have an ASEA too + better engines so will the FGFA and last but not the least LCAs will also have Israeli ASEA radars on them

 

[danger007]

A lot of conclusions are being made about the SU-35 without anything to back those claims. Such as the Rafale's bla bla is better then the SU-35's bla bla. 90% of the SU-35's capabilities are not know.

Actually India is not intended to buy a plat form like Su-35.... We are already co-dev Much more powerful platform, a fifth gen fighter.... India does already have huge number of similar Jets like SU-35, MKI intended to upgrade... So it is not a good choice for India to go with Su-35....

If we go with SU-35 that would might kill MKI upgrade program.... remember we have 272 Mki that need to be upgraded..

 

[Tangent]

..Actually China will reverse engineer SU-35 and terminate the deal midway stating it's locally developed fighter ( reversed engineered SU-35) is better than..., as it has done with Su27.. The comparision should be between Rafale and the reversed engineered plane.

 

[tvsram1992]

Depends which one is Indian . Had it been Indian Rafale Vs Chinese Su35 , Rafale would be the winner , if it was French Rafale Vs Indian Su30Mki , Mki would win eventually
I believe Flanker would have the cutting edge technology considering Russian experience in manufacturing aircraft . Although the reverse too can be backed up .

 

[Ammyy]

Su-35S has N-035 IRBIS-E. The most powerful Fighter Plane mounted X Band radar in the world. Specs are as follows.
Transmitter peak power - 20kw
Transmitter average power - 5kw
Can Track - 30 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 8 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 426 km
Max Detection for 3 sqm RCS - 375 km
Max Detection for 1 sqm RCS - 285 km
Max Detection for 0.01 sqm RCS - 90 km


Rafale vs SU-35

If its true it can we work as AWACS

 

[armchairPrivate]

I really think all the countries should sign an agreement, treaty that when a new fighter jet (battle ship, machine gun, canon, etc) was produced, that country must issue a challenge to other countries for a real fight, just like wrestling, cage fights. Then we would know who is talking shlt.