Why Su-35 wouldn't pose any serious threat to India's Rafale

[Abingdonboy]

Evn JF-17 thunder is better than Rafael

 

[帅的一匹]

Su35 will be deployed at east border of China, so cause no threat to India.

 

[Ayush]

Su-35 is a way superior aircraft to Rafael...

Su-35 can conduct strategic missions thousands of miles away from the base...

Evn JF-17 thunder is better than Rafael

 

[Zabaniyah]

Not to mention the SU-35 is at a serious disadvantage to the Rafale's on board avionics and weapons so I don't see how the " Rafale pilot would have to reach a decision quickly. Or else, he'll be hopelessly overpowered. " utter hogwash IMHO.

Agreed about the weapons and T/W part.

Though, I do not see how the Rafale has the advantage when it comes to radar and electronics. It's really just close to impossible to establish in a defense journal.

I think it is a bit of a generalization to say that Russians don't make great electronics. This is no longer the Soviet days anymore.

Evn JF-17 thunder is better than Rafael

Dang...

 

[Koovie]

Evn JF-17 thunder is better than Rafael

Trolling level: Senior Pro.

 

[johnny boy]

Okay India is the best. You happy?

Yes legendary Chinese troll im Happy!!!!Yay!!!

Evn JF-17 thunder is better than Rafael

In the name of the Holy Lord..i forgive u for this Blasphemy and giving me an oppurtunity to laugh out loud....

 

[zzzz]

Not to mention the SU-35 is at a serious disadvantage to the Rafale's on board avionics and weapons

Last time i checked SU-35 has missiles with 2 times range and radar with 3 times range compared to Rafale. That must be serious disadvantage. Ok.

 

[johnny boy]

Last time i checked SU-35 has missiles with 2 times range and radar with 3 times range compared to Rafale. That must be serious disadvantage. Ok.

Su 35 is at par with Super Sukhoi Su 30 mki.......with rafaele id say :no comments.

 

[selvan33]

OMG. this thread is still alive.

 

[sancho]

The Rafale has more hard-points (meaning that it can carry drop tanks and still carry as many bombs/missiles as the -35)...

...Additionally the Rafales delivered to the IAF will have Supercruise and the -35 to be delivered to China (if they truly do get some) won't.

These points are not correct, the Rafale has 14 hardpoints, but 2 of them are for pods, like Damocles, => 12. The centerline station when used for a fuel tank occupies 2 hardpoints, besides that the rear hardpoint is not cleared for any weapon yet, => 11 and any hardpoint that will be occupied for fuel, can't carry weapons.

Rafale in CAP config:

- 2 x 1250l fuel tanks
- 4 x BVR missiles
- 2 x WVR missiles

3 x hardpoints left for for weapons (centerline + external wingstations)


Flankers in the same role:

- fuel internally
- 4 x BVR missiles
- 2 x WVR missiles

6 x hardpoints left for weapons (with ECM pods 4)


Also both fighters reportedly have proven Supercruise capability, but there are no reliable specs for the Su 35 about the config and speed during this flight.

 

[sancho]

Though, I do not see how the Rafale has the advantage when it comes to radar and electronics.

The only advantages Rafale has wrt to radar is, that it can detect and track more targets at the same time and that it's AESA technology offers some advantage.
However, Rafales main advantage are it's passive sensors, since it was developed with other tactics in mind than former generation fighters, or Russian fighters in general. It can detect, identify enemy radar emiters and provide even precise target data to it's weapons and that to a full field of view of 360°. In an head to head engagement, the Su 35 might detect a Rafale in a similar config earlier, but with the limitation of it's radar to 120° to the front, it will loose this advantage in any other area. Rafale on the other hand will use SPECTRA to long range and any direction, while remaining passive (without radar turned on), to be hard to detect and to put itself out of enemys radars field of view.

First sight first shot still counts, but it's not limited to first sight via radar to the front secort anymore. Modern and especially NG fighters will use advanced long range passive sensors to detect enemies first, put them self in a position to be not detected, while closing in and will turn on the radar only to guide the missiles during the final stages of the attack. But that obviously works only if the enemy has it's radar or other EM emiters turned on, that's why the next step is not to relay on wide field passive detection, but also wide field active detection, which is why Pak Fa / FGFA (initially also F22) are planned with side radar arrays, to increase the active field of view, or why with the NG of AESA modules 360° radar detection might be possible, with AESA modules fitted around the airframe.

In terms of electronics / EW, Rafale and SPECTRA currently is possibly one of the most advanced solutions, other than the systems in 5th gen fighters. But we see things advancing in this field quiet fast and even India seems to be on a good way here.

 

[DrSomnath999]

Effectiveness of electronics is something that is very hard to establish.

The word electronics is a very broad word it can include any electrical thing

but if u mean Avionics , sensor system & sensor fusion ,then French have indeed achieved a remarkable success in it just like US .Thats the reason perhaps Pakistan was also interested to install french systems in their JF-17

Rafale has evolved a much better & mature platform than SU 35 .Meanwhiile Su 35 is designed to counter Typhoon ,Rafale & F18 upgraded variants of course it's avionics sensor system is much better than it's predecessor but like i said rafale is more evolved
platform in the electronics segment(Avionics, sensor system & sensor fusion)

If my source is correct, the Rafale has a T/W ratio of 1.19 and the Su-35 has a T/W ratio of 1.30.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/72354-thrust-weight-ratios-all-fighter-planes.html

This is even given that the Su-35 has nearly twice the amount of fuel capacity, and weight 19,000 lbs more.

I think that the Su-35 has the performance advantage. It has a higher T/W ratio, along with a higher fuel capacity.

This allows it to have greater persistence, and play dirty games which the Rafale may not be able. This includes turning and running from missiles during BVR fights more often than the Rafale can.

I think your concept of aerial warfare is wrong .

No doubt Su 35 is a high performance plane but performance alone cant save him from Missiles like Metoer ramjet powered BVRAAM which boasts to have world's longest NO escape zone.

In order to survive from EM guided BVRAAMs high manuveurabilty alone would not do ,u must have advanced ECM suites along
with advanced Electronic jamming suite

Both rafale & Su 35 are known to have high manuveurabilty , meanwhile SU 35 has advantage in High AoA meanwhile rafale has
adavnatge in turn rate ( Rafale Pilots have known to achieve mind blowing 11G manuveurs)

But Rafale has adavantage in ECM /Jamming suite in form of SPECTRA to SU 35's Khibiny M EW suite

1) far better angular localization of threats like Missiles (EM guided or IR guided)

2)In future DIRCM compatibilty

3) SPECTRA is capable of OMNI directional AESA jamming meanwhile Irbis -E is itself a PESA radar


In BVR warfare russian philosophy is to detect an enemy 1st from long range then cueing it's Bvraam & getting away from it's target as soon as possible

So Russian Su 35 may be having superior radar can detect Rafale from very long range but it's strength would become it's actual
weakness against Rafale

as Rafale's Spectra can passively locate EM radiations far away than it's own aesa radar & cue it's Meteor ramjet powered at Su 35 without turning it's own aesa radar for stealth reason.

For eg
if Theoretically, Su-35 can detect / track Rafale at the range of 150 to 203 km / 90 to 142 km away in head to head engagement.

then Rafale's SPECTRA has a passive detection capabilty of greater than 200+ km can also detect passively SU 35 at much longer range & can cue it's Meteor missile without having turn it's own aesa radar for stealth reason. By the time SU 35 detects
Metoer missile it is already too late for the SU 35 pilot to escape ,the only thing he can do pull up the ejection seat & eject

Do we need to even talk about a dogfight?

well why not BVR warfare is still unreliable both pilots can still manage to escape

But WVR range one plane is surely going to be shot down

SU 35 has some advantage in manuveurability thanks to TVC but Rafale has amazing MICA IR missile & DDM ng counter measure system it can locate very accurately IR guided missiles

I still believe Rafale also has a thin edge in wvr warfare also but R 74 missile which is going to replace R73 missiles can change the scenario in future

So survivability is a factor here, and a very crucial one.

Not saying that the Rafale is inferior to the Su-35. The pilot also matters!

In face of a Su-35, the Rafale pilot would have to reach a decision quickly. Or else, he'll be hopelessly overpowered.

Well thats another speciality of Rafale that is it's MAN MACHINE INTERFACE thanks to it's amazing sensor fusion & situational awareness
SENSOR FUSION:

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fi...teur/AUTRES_DOCS/Fox_three/Fox_Three_nr_6.pdf

Advanced MMI:

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fi...teur/AUTRES_DOCS/Fox_three/Fox_Three_nr_6.pdf

these things reduces the pilot workload & focuses on high priority targets

It's kinda like comparing a man to a woman. The Su-35 is a man, whereas Rafale is a woman

Hmm!!

well who is man or who is woman time would tell.

Well Rafale is such a woman who has indeed burst balls of many mens

 

[DrSomnath999]

These points are not correct, the Rafale has 14 hardpoints, but 2 of them are for pods, like Damocles, => 12. The centerline station when used for a fuel tank occupies 2 hardpoints, besides that the rear hardpoint is not cleared for any weapon yet, => 11 and any hardpoint that will be occupied for fuel, can't carry weapons.

Rafale in CAP config:

- 2 x 1250l fuel tanks
- 4 x BVR missiles
- 2 x WVR missiles

3 x hardpoints left for for weapons (centerline + external wingstations)


Flankers in the same role:

- fuel internally
- 4 x BVR missiles
- 2 x WVR missiles

6 x hardpoints left for weapons (with ECM pods 4)

Thats an important advantage for SU 35 against Rafale it can be decisive against Rafale

SO in BVR warfare 1st shot kill is a must for rafale or else it would ran out of Meteor missiles meanwhile SU 35 would continue firing R 77 derivatives missiles towards Rafale

I really beleive They should try to built a multi launcher system for Metoer missiles like SAgems hammer missiles

 

[ExtraOdinary]

i believe the french avionics on rafale would be better/reliable than what the ruskies have on su-35. that imho is the primary advantage of rafale

 

[DrSomnath999]

Do you have any translation of this, what ecactly have they rated and how?

well it's translated version is here i got it from key pub & edited it in the form of pics for better understanding

Rafale vs Su-35 (splitting from Rafale thread) - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums