Why Su-35 wouldn't pose any serious threat to India's Rafale

[arp2041]

SU-35 is also test bed for many 5th gen systems of PAK-FA like the powerful AESA radar IMO SU-35 is serious threat.

I think you answered it.

India is not interested in a TEST BED, it's Interested in the FINAL PRODUCT - PAK-FA/FGFA.

 

[DrSomnath999]

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2. You are comparing a heavy weight boxer with a medium weight on steroids.

well 1st of all
it's not a versus thread infact it's a scenario thread
well heavy weight boxer is infact an overweight boxer which needs to keep it's fitness up agaisnt well built & techinally sound boxer & overweight boxer really lacks punch to score point compare to technically sound boxer which can punch & scores a point

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3. Ibris-E and BARS both have LPI modes thanks to better sidelobe performance than traditional PESA radars thanks to its Hybrid design..

LPI mode is on pen & paper .When on BVR warfare one on one against rafale the Su 35's pilot by turning on it's own Pesa radar
is commiting suicide ,as Rafale's spectra can easily locate airborne radar emitters at much further range than it's own aesa radar
& can cue it's own meteor long range BVRaam missile without turning on it's own Aesa radar for stealth reason .

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4. Su 35 can have the Next gen OLS developed for PAK FA... along with other Avionics or AESA radar as well.

Funny thing SU 35 OLS is known to have european IIR imaging seeker
http://www.afa.org/edop/2010/PAK-FA'sFirstFlighton29JAN10REV5.pdf

& french sofradir company is pioneer in making IIR imaging seekers


the word "Can " is meaniningless

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IMO the comparison is baseless simply because both planes have similar upgrade potential.. with Su35 having slightly more due to its large size and more powerful engine... so comparing them is like comparing apples with oranges.

To be fair enough actually "IMO" Your "O" part from the " IMO" word of your post is baseless seriously
Like i said in my thread
SU 35 future potential depends upon it's export order ,meanwhile rafale would always be the future fighter for french & on top
of it India's MMRCA win & other export orders could expand it's future potential further
Large size & large engine makes a jack sense for better upgrade .

Chinese buy of Su35 is to add a new life to the 5th gen J-20 program which has been struggling due to lack of proper powerplant and other electronic systems, like AESA radar, ECM, ECCM..etc... the amount of technology they get would heavily depend upon the amount of money they are willing to pay... Putin administration has been keeping China high in the strategic partnership lists against the US and NATO.... It wants to see it emerge as a key global player and not just a regional power.

China could directly buy those things rather than buying planes having it & copy pasting those components u mention

BTW SU 35 doesnt have aesa radar

 

[SQ8]

The Rafale sources are all from French ones... and Im sure someone pro Su-35 will have Russian or Carlo Kopp with his super Russian radars.
Objectivity. dies therein.

 

[DrSomnath999]

@DrSomnath999 Great post but I know that IAF pilots regard Su 30MKI as better air combat fighter than both Rafale and EFT.

Loll
let them once fly rafale then we would see what would IAF pilots say

 

[Ayush]

Rafale vs SU-35

guys what do you say about this??

http://www.aviatia.net/versus/rafale-vs-su-35/

guys what do you say about this??

 

[DrSomnath999]

technical details are good. but comparative analysis is nonsense because both are basically different category.one is heavy weight and the next is medium multi role.

again misinterpretation about the intention of this thread ,it's a scenario thread not a versus thread as Critics assuming SU 35 induction by china would nullify all advantage india would have when they get rafale which is seriosly wrong

Weightt has nothing do with air superiority but avionics , stealth profile ,air to air Missiles & ECM suites has more importance

 

[Abingdonboy]

SU-35 is also test bed for many 5th gen systems of PAK-FA like the powerful AESA radar IMO SU-35 is serious threat.

No one is saying the Su-35 isn't a potent a/c. All the OP is saying,from an Indian POV, with the Rafales and Super SU-30MKIs the threat posed by a few Su-35s in China is minimal. And btw the Rafale too has 5th gen tech in using an operational AESA radar which the IAF will be getting. The fact is the French don't seem to have a 5th gen fighter replacement on their plans right now which means they are going to be pumping plenty of funds into the Rafale to keep it relevant when more and more nations start getting 5th gen fighters, through progressive upgrades and Tranches the Rafale has a very bright future in this respect.

 

[Mike_Brando]

again misinterpretation about the intention of this thread ,it's a scenario thread not a versus thread as Critics assuming SU 35 induction by china would nullify all advantage india would have when they get rafale which is seriosly wrong

Weightt has nothing do with air superiority but avionics , stealth profile ,air to air Missiles & ECM suites has more importance

sir i have a simple question that why was the IAF not interested in Su-35BM when it was offered to them by the Russians?i mean if we would have bought around 100 Su-35BMs (please don't bring the financial problems as we all know that if the IAF wanted this aircraft badly it would have definitely went ahead and purchased them and the cost of acquisition would have been around $7-8 billions) in addition to the MMRCA then we could have easily retired all the Mig-27s from the IAF and would have assigned the A2G role to the Rafales and Su-35 would be our premium air dominance fighter in additon to the Su-30MKI.can you shed some light in this matter please.

 

[sancho]

On no level does this sale make sense- political,financial, strategic etc NONE.
@DrSomnath999 @sancho @arp2041 @KRAIT what do you think?

First of all, the reports / rumors about this deals are still not confirmed from any government source of any side. Secondly, from finacial point of view it does make sense to sell the Su 35 to China, since it's better to have some sales with the risk that they will try to copy it, than to have no sales at all. Russia is offering the Su 35 and 34 for exports for several years and couldn't fix a single deal so far. Only the Su 30s attract interests, partially thanks to the good PR from our side, but imo also because it might be cheaper and more suitable to most operational policies of foreign countries. Another point is, that the Su 35 might be the most capable Flanker version, but compared to the possible competitors of western countries, that offer better avionics, AESA radar, better weapons and far lower operational costs, it will be difficult to find other operators. Not to mention that many countries are looking beyond 4.5 gen fighters, a problem that even the EF or Rafale are facing today.
When you think about all this and look around which countries are left for the Russians, you will understand the problem for Russia, since no exports for that version means upgrades for BARS, or the S117 engine would remain on Russian funds only, while most of the Su 30 operators can rely on Indias upgrade path for the MKI and the fact that we will have a huge number of them for a very long time.
Wasn't it surprising for you that Russian went with the Su 30SM suddenly, instead of the Su 35 recently? They are inducting many Su 34s for the strike and maritime attack role and has developed the 35 extra for the A2A and still opting for the cheaper version now?
I think the Su 35 is a burden for them now, since they are looking beyond to the Pak Fa anyway, which makes the Su 30SM to a more cost-effective stopgap solution, while the Russians will fit some of the Su35 techs and capabilities into their first Pak Fas anyway.
So when you don't need this version anymore and have even better techs and capabilities in sight, why shouldn't they sell it to China then? They know China needs the radar and engine techs and all that is left now might be to find the right compromise between numbers, costs and ToT they might provide.

Btw, the Mig 29K denial might have been a decision to not risk a sale to us. If China would have the same fighter, with the same techs and capabilities, we would never have gone with such a big order and that was crucial for Mikoyan, just like for Russian Navy! Thanks to our order, we secure spare and upgrades for Russian navy as well and will keep the Mig 29 productionline open for longer.
Personally I would have prefered Mig 29Ks on a Chinese carrier, than J15s and Rafales on our carrier, but that would have been the worst choice for Russia of course.

 

[sancho]

they have to cite a reason not to allow it's entry into MMRCA contest may be that one was an excuse

Come on buddy, more speculations?

MMRCA was only for medium class fighters, while IAF would have prefered even lighter single engine M2Ks at the begining, so Su 35 would not had fit to the requirements of the competition, which is why the Russians offered the Mig 35. Not to mention that it's wouldn't be a big deal to add the Su 35 upgrades to the HAL production line and directly include them into the MKIs, IF we would ever have wanted them, but that wasn't the case, since one of MMRCAs aim was to reduce the dependence on Russia and their weapons and techs, while offering alternatives.

- we had the best that Russia offered for exports, according to our requirements and under the best conditions for us
- the Mig 35 didn't offered anything, that would have made it better than the MKI, other than beeing a bit cheaper
- the Su 35 didn't met our doctrine in the past (single seat only) and IS technically not too much away from the MKI, since it's techs are further developments of the MKI once
- we already co-develop the FGFA, which again gets us the latest techs and capabilities from Russia on a partnership level

All this makes it very logical that the Su 35 was never a real choice for India, especially not as part of the MMRCA!

 

[T90TankGuy]

they have to cite a reason not to allow it's entry into MMRCA contest may be that one was an excuse

The need was for a medium fighter , in the 20 ton category , we already had the su30 for the heavy category , there was no need to get another fighter with similar weight class.

 

[DrSomnath999]

I Do not want to go in details........ but reality check let me put it this way.

SU35

VS
​

Rafale

Result​

true

but who is more succesful & real winner in real life among the two

1. Normal take-off：
* Su-35: 25,300 kg
* Rafale: 15,000 kg


18. Frontal minimal RCS / Ratio of RCS / Ratio of range being detected:
* Su-35: 1.0 ~ 3.0 m2 --> 6666 ~ 20000 --> 9.03 ~ 11.89
* Rafale: 0.1 ~ 0.2 m2 --> 666 ~ 1332 --> 5.08 ~ 6.04


19. Su-35 v.s Rafale:

* Theoretically, Rafale shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 87 to 130 km / 52 to 91 km away in head to head engagement.
* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect / track Rafale at the range of 150 to 203 km / 90 to 142 km away in head to head engagement.

Oh boy

just copy pasting info from F 16 .net forums dont prove anything

in todays aerial combat

plane with more stealth profile, superior avionics & sensor fusion ,cutting edge weapons more manuverabilty & better ECM suites win the battle

having a greater size ,more range ,more payload & higher thrust engines doesnt gurantee victory in aerial combat

 

[ptldM3]

A lot of conclusions are being made about the SU-35 without anything to back those claims. Such as the Rafale's bla bla is better then the SU-35's bla bla. 90% of the SU-35's capabilities are not know.

 

[DrSomnath999]

And Khibiny-M with R-27EP could do this to Rafale.

haa haa

Your posts is as deceiving as the result of that match

infact in reality Su 35's Khibiny-M can only cue an anti radiation missile provided Rafale turn on it's Aesa radar ,which they usually rarely do as they depend more on passive detection with that from Spectra & FSO

meanwhile Rafale's Spectra can cue Active radar guided missiles like Meteor without turning on it's own aesa radar for stealth
reason

SO a rafale's SPECTRA with meteor would do this to SU 35 in reality

 

[DrSomnath999]

The Rafale sources are all from French ones... and Im sure someone pro Su-35 will have Russian or Carlo Kopp with his super Russian radars.
Objectivity. dies therein.

ya it's true french media usually promotes rafale in a loud manner but u should indeed know that facts are indeed correct but they exaggerate those facts to suit their needs

Kopp was an alarmist in australian air power website though it's some posts are higly biased

Russian radar are indeed powerful with greater detection range but it's only demerit is it's LPI tech is inferior against highly superior western ESM platforms whther it is in AWACS, aircraft jets