Why Su-35 wouldn't pose any serious threat to India's Rafale

[GURU DUTT]

So the Sukhoi's ain't the 2nd only to the Raptor anymore?

well brio either sukois or rafales you aint gonna get any respite any time soon you cant even afford a couple of squads of J10s its hillarious that pakistani think if ever chinese get the SU35's they will have something to hold Indian Air Forces MKI/Rafale Combo or say MKI/FGFA/Rafale combo get real we have them both Sukois and Rafales thing is what and how will PAF counter this threat as PLAF isnt going to fight IAF to save land of the pure

 

[graphican]

Su-30MKI vs Su-35S
This was posted by an Indian Member http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/222304-su-30mki-vs-su-35s-post3660693.html#post3660693

This is not actually a typical VS thread because both these fighters are operated by friendly countries. So the probability of these 2 fighting against each other is Zero. This is just to see how these 2 compares with each other and also, gives an idea of what the Super-Sukhoi-30MKI might derive out of the Su-35S platform.

Su-35S(formerly Su-35BM) is the most recent and the most advanced of the Su-27 family. It has a all-metal structure, but unlike other Su-27 family fighters, it's comprised of titanium composites. As a result its airframe life is higher than the others. Its avionics is one of the best, and its radar is the best in the world in range. How does it compare with its cousin the successful Su-30MKI family comprising of Su-30MKI, Su-30MKM and Su-30MKA?

Below are the similarities between Su-30MKI and Su-35S:
12 Hard Points
8000kgs external ordinance
G-limit 9
Same Air-Air and Air-Ground weapons package
Has Thrust Vectoring
Can house external jammers and all varieties of pods.
Has inflight re-fueling
etc.. etc..


Differences:
Su-30MKI-
Maximum internal fuel - 9,640kgs
Max Range(without mid-air refueling) - 3000kms
Max ceiling - 17.3km
Max Speed - Mach 1.9
Canards - Yes
Crew - 2
Max Afterburner Thrust - 12500kgf, Emergency Thrust - 12800kgf
External Fuel Tanks - No
Composites - Not in significant quantity.
Empty Weight - unknown. Estimated to be around 18400kgs.
Airframe life - 3,000hrs or 15 years(at 200 hours flight time each year)
Internal Jammer - No
RCS - unofficial estimate 11.5m2
Airbrake - Yes
Supercruise- No


Su-35S-
Maximum internal fuel - 11,500kgs
Max Range(without mid-air refueling, without external fuel tanks) - 3600kms
Max ceiling - 18km
Max Speed - Mach 2.25
Canards - No (since radar isn't heavy)
Crew - 1
Max Afterburner Thrust - 14500kgf(gives a massive boost to TWR compared to Su-30MKI)
External Fuel Tanks - Yes (can carry 2 drop tanks of 1400kgs fuel in each of them)
Composites - Yes. Extensive use of Titanium Alloys.
Empty Weight - Unknown. Estimated to be around 18800kgs.
Airframe life - 6,000hrs or 30 years(at 200 hours flight time each year)
Internal Jammer - Yes
RCS - unofficial estimate between 1-3m2
Airbrake - No. Powerful modified rudders act as Airbrakes.
Supercruise - Yes

Radar-
This deserves a separate mention. Because this is where the difference is at its max.
Su-30MKI has a N-011M BARS Radar
Transmitter peak power - 5kw
Transmitter average power - 1.2kw
Can Track- 15 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 140 km(Upgraded Radar with upgraded transmitter power, if any in service, its range is unknown.)

Su-35S has N-035 IRBIS-E. The most powerful Fighter Plane mounted X Band radar in the world. Specs are as follows.
Transmitter peak power - 20kw
Transmitter average power - 5kw
Can Track - 30 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 8 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 426 km
Max Detection for 3 sqm RCS - 375 km
Max Detection for 1 sqm RCS - 285 km
Max Detection for 0.01 sqm RCS - 90 km


DATA FROM OFFICIAL SUKHOI and NIIP WEBSITES. Not Wikipedia!



From the posted specs, SU-30 falls way behind SU-35.

For SU-35 VS Rafale Comparison,

http://www.aviatia.net/versus/rafale-vs-su-35/

 

[Killswitch]

The only way to know for sure is to have air combat between the two fighters, one backed and piloted by the IAF, the other by the PLAAF. Talking on the forums wont prove which is better.

 

[Kompromat]

well brio either sukois or rafales you aint gonna get any respite any time soon you cant even afford a couple of squads of J10s its hillarious that pakistani think if ever chinese get the SU35's they will have something to hold Indian Air Forces MKI/Rafale Combo or say MKI/FGFA/Rafale combo get real we have them both Sukois and Rafales thing is what and how will PAF counter this threat as PLAF isnt going to fight IAF to save land of the pure

Who's talking about Pakistan, are you high?

 

[United]

1. Normal take-off：
* Su-35: 25,300 kg
* Rafale: 15,000 kg

2. MTOW：
* Su-35: 34,500 kg
* Rafale: 24,500 kg

3. Internal Fuel：
* Su-35: 11,500 kg
* Rafale: 4,750 kg

4. Maximal Payload：

* Su-35: 8,000 kg
* Rafale: 9,500 kg

5. Maximal Speed, 11,000 m：

* Su-35: 2.25 Mach
* Rafale: 1.80 Mach+ (2.00 Mach)

6. Maximal speed, 200 m：
* Su-35: 1,400 km/hr
* Rafale: 750 kts

7. Climb rate：
* Su-35: 280 m/sec+, 1,000 m
* Rafale: 305 m/sec+, sea-level

8. Operational Altitude：
* Su-35: 59,000 fts
* Rafale: 55,000 fts

9. Ferry range：
* Su-35: 4,500 km (Internal Fuel + 2000 L tanks*2)
* Rafale: > 2,100 km (Internal Fuel)


10. Acceleration：
* Su-35: 13.8 secs from 600 km/hr to 1,100 km/hr, and 8 secs from 1,100 km/hr to 1,300 km/hr（with 50% internal fuel, standard A-A configuration, and height of 1,000 m）.

* Rafale: around 20 seconds from 300 km/hr to 1,000 km/hr at low altitude.


11. Normal upper G-limit：
* Su-35: +9.0G
* Rafale: +9.0G

12. T/W ratio of normal take-off（AB / Max. Mil.）：
* Su-35: 1.10 ~ 1.15 / 0.69 ~ 0.70
* Rafale: 1.02 ~ 1.03 / 0.68 ~ 0.69

13. Take-off with standard A-A configuration：
* Su-35: 400 to 450 m
* Rafale: 400 m

14. Landing：
* Su-35: 650 m（with the help of braking and parachute）
* Rafale: 400 m（with the help of braking only）


15. Radar's range：

* Su-35: Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 350 to 400 km away --> 307 ~ 351.

* Rafale: Detecting target of RCS = 5 m2 at the range of 130 ~ 148 km away --> Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 114 to 130 km away theoretically --> 100 ~ 114.


16. Maximal horizontal scanning angle of Radar：
* Su-35: +/-120 degrees
* Rafale: +/- 60 degrees

17. Capability of multiple target engagement：
* Su-35: Tracking 30 and engaging 8.
* Rafale: Tracking 40 and engaging 4 to 6.

18. Frontal minimal RCS / Ratio of RCS / Ratio of range being detected:
* Su-35: 1.0 ~ 3.0 m2 --> 6666 ~ 20000 --> 9.03 ~ 11.89
* Rafale: 0.1 ~ 0.2 m2 --> 666 ~ 1332 --> 5.08 ~ 6.04


19. Su-35 v.s Rafale:

* Theoretically, Rafale shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 87 to 130 km / 52 to 91 km away in head to head engagement.
* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect / track Rafale at the range of 150 to 203 km / 90 to 142 km away in head to head engagement.

 

[DARKY]

This one would be more close to reality.

And Khibiny-M with R-27EP could do this to Rafale.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I am still not sold that Russia is selling the Su-35 to the Chinese. Not long ago the Russians had said they would only consider selling the Su-35 to the Chinese if they ordered a significant amount ie 80-100+ to offset the possible loss of export potential of the SU-35 as the Chinese would in all certainly have reverse engineered the Su-35, given it a new designation and tried to export effectively the same machine but at a cheaper price. Many Chinese admit they are only interested in the SU-35 to study and clone its radar,engines and other electronic systems for use on their 5th gen fighter(s). However all the news coming out is that the Chinese have only bought a very small number so why would the Russians suddenly change their stance and shot themselves in the foot?

Right now the RuAF has a tiny number in service and its export viability doesn't look great even today, so with a small order from the Chinese who would later kill any possible chance of exports for the Su-35, the Russians don't look like they will even make back the devlopment costs of the Su-35 project. Is anyone really convinced they'd be willing to make a loss just to close this deal?



Additionally, if you remember, the Russians had explicitly stated they were unwilling to sell the Mig-29K to the Chinese for the above reasons ie serious risk of IP infringement- the Chinese have already shown this tendency with the Su-33/J-11 fiasco so what has changed? Are the Russians willing to sell their more advanced fighter (than the Mig-29K) into the exact same climate?


We don't even have to factor in the Indian element ie Russia is risking further alienating its single largest arms buyer.


On no level does this sale make sense- political,financial, strategic etc NONE.
@DrSomnath999 @sancho @arp2041 @KRAIT what do you think?

 

[Fahad Khan 2]

SU-35 VS Raffel

 

[Abingdonboy]

Su-30MKI vs Su-35S
This was posted by an Indian Member http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/222304-su-30mki-vs-su-35s-post3660693.html#post3660693

This is not actually a typical VS thread because both these fighters are operated by friendly countries. So the probability of these 2 fighting against each other is Zero. This is just to see how these 2 compares with each other and also, gives an idea of what the Super-Sukhoi-30MKI might derive out of the Su-35S platform.

Su-35S(formerly Su-35BM) is the most recent and the most advanced of the Su-27 family. It has a all-metal structure, but unlike other Su-27 family fighters, it's comprised of titanium composites. As a result its airframe life is higher than the others. Its avionics is one of the best, and its radar is the best in the world in range. How does it compare with its cousin the successful Su-30MKI family comprising of Su-30MKI, Su-30MKM and Su-30MKA?

Below are the similarities between Su-30MKI and Su-35S:
12 Hard Points
8000kgs external ordinance
G-limit 9
Same Air-Air and Air-Ground weapons package
Has Thrust Vectoring
Can house external jammers and all varieties of pods.
Has inflight re-fueling
etc.. etc..


Differences:
Su-30MKI-
Maximum internal fuel - 9,640kgs
Max Range(without mid-air refueling) - 3000kms
Max ceiling - 17.3km
Max Speed - Mach 1.9
Canards - Yes
Crew - 2
Max Afterburner Thrust - 12500kgf, Emergency Thrust - 12800kgf
External Fuel Tanks - No
Composites - Not in significant quantity.
Empty Weight - unknown. Estimated to be around 18400kgs.
Airframe life - 3,000hrs or 15 years(at 200 hours flight time each year)
Internal Jammer - No
RCS - unofficial estimate 11.5m2
Airbrake - Yes
Supercruise- No


Su-35S-
Maximum internal fuel - 11,500kgs
Max Range(without mid-air refueling, without external fuel tanks) - 3600kms
Max ceiling - 18km
Max Speed - Mach 2.25
Canards - No (since radar isn't heavy)
Crew - 1
Max Afterburner Thrust - 14500kgf(gives a massive boost to TWR compared to Su-30MKI)
External Fuel Tanks - Yes (can carry 2 drop tanks of 1400kgs fuel in each of them)
Composites - Yes. Extensive use of Titanium Alloys.
Empty Weight - Unknown. Estimated to be around 18800kgs.
Airframe life - 6,000hrs or 30 years(at 200 hours flight time each year)
Internal Jammer - Yes
RCS - unofficial estimate between 1-3m2
Airbrake - No. Powerful modified rudders act as Airbrakes.
Supercruise - Yes

Radar-
This deserves a separate mention. Because this is where the difference is at its max.
Su-30MKI has a N-011M BARS Radar
Transmitter peak power - 5kw
Transmitter average power - 1.2kw
Can Track- 15 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 140 km(Upgraded Radar with upgraded transmitter power, if any in service, its range is unknown.)

Su-35S has N-035 IRBIS-E. The most powerful Fighter Plane mounted X Band radar in the world. Specs are as follows.
Transmitter peak power - 20kw
Transmitter average power - 5kw
Can Track - 30 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 8 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 426 km
Max Detection for 3 sqm RCS - 375 km
Max Detection for 1 sqm RCS - 285 km
Max Detection for 0.01 sqm RCS - 90 km


DATA FROM OFFICIAL SUKHOI and NIIP WEBSITES. Not Wikipedia!



From the posted specs, SU-30 falls way behind SU-35.

For SU-35 VS Rafale Comparison,

Rafale vs SU-35

Yes, but you should really be comparing the SU-35 to the SUPER SU-30MKI std if you're being fair. The SUPER UPG will make the MKI broadly equal to the -35 in most areas and more capable in other areas. But exact specs for the SUPER UPG remain classified.

 

[Fahad Khan 2]

Comparison among F-22A, Su-35, EF-2000, and RAFALE C

1. Normal take-off：
* F-22A: 27,200 kg
* Su-35: 25,300 kg
* EF-2K: 17,000 kg
* Rafale: 15,000 kg

2. MTOW：
* F-22A: 28,120 kg
* Su-35: 34,500 kg
* EF-2K: 23,500 kg
* Rafale: 24,500 kg

3. Internal Fuel：
* F-22A: 9,330 kg
* Su-35: 11,500 kg
* EF-2K: 5,000 kg
* Rafale: 4,750 kg

4. Maximal Payload：
* F-22A: unknown
* Su-35: 8,000 kg
* EF-2K: 7,500 kg+
* Rafale: 9,500 kg

5. Maximal Speed, 11,000 m：
* F-22A: 2.00 Mach+ (2.25 ~ 2.42 Mach)
* Su-35: 2.25 Mach
* EF-2K: 2.00 Mach+ (2.25 Mach)
* Rafale: 1.80 Mach+ (2.00 Mach)

6. Maximal speed, 200 m：
* F-22A: 800 kts
* Su-35: 1,400 km/hr
* EF-2K: 1.14 Mach
* Rafale: 750 kts

7. Climb rate：
* F-22A: 350 m/sec, sea-level
* Su-35: 280 m/sec+, 1,000 m
* EF-2K: 315 m/sec+, sea-level
* Rafale: 305 m/sec+, sea-level

8. Operational Altitude：
* F-22A: 70,000 fts
* Su-35: 59,000 fts
* EF-2K: 65,000 fts
* Rafale: 55,000 fts

9. Ferry range：
* F-22A: 3,500 km (Internal Fuel)
* Su-35: 4,500 km (Internal Fuel + 2000 L tanks*2)
* EF-2K: 2,600 km (Internal Fuel)
* Rafale: > 2,100 km (Internal Fuel)


10. Acceleration：

* F-22A: unknown.

* Su-35: 13.8 secs from 600 km/hr to 1,100 km/hr, and 8 secs from 1,100 km/hr to 1,300 km/hr（with 50% internal fuel, standard A-A configuration, and height of 1,000 m）.

* EF-2K: less than 20 seconds from 200 kts to Mach 0.9 (Twin-seaters with one 1,000 L tank and two ASRAAM, altitude unknown).

* Rafale: around 20 seconds from 300 km/hr to 1,000 km/hr at low altitude.


11. Normal upper G-limit：
* F-22A: +9.5G
* Su-35: +9.0G
* EF-2K: +9.0G
* Rafale: +9.0G

12. T/W ratio of normal take-off（AB / Max. Mil.）：
* F-22A: 1.17 ~ 1.30 / 0.85 ~ 0.87
* Su-35: 1.10 ~ 1.15 / 0.69 ~ 0.70
* EF-2K: 1.08 ~ 1.14 / 0.72 ~ 0.83
* Rafale: 1.02 ~ 1.03 / 0.68 ~ 0.69

13. Take-off with standard A-A configuration：
* F-22A: 244 m
* Su-35: 400 to 450 m
* EF-2K: 228 ~ 275 m（Emergency take-off）to 457 m（Normal take-off）.
* Rafale: 400 m

14. Landing：
* F-22A: unknown.
* Su-35: 650 m（with the help of braking and parachute）
* EF-2K: 500 to 700 m
* Rafale: 400 m（with the help of braking only）


15. Radar's range：

* F-22A: Tracking target of RCS = 1 m2 at the range of 200 km away --> Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 375 to 440 km away theoretically --> 329 ~ 386.

* Su-35: Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 350 to 400 km away --> 307 ~ 351.

* EF-2K: Tracking target of RCS = 5 m2 at the range of 160 ~ 185 km away --> Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 200 to 272 km away theoretically --> 175 ~ 239.

* Rafale: Detecting target of RCS = 5 m2 at the range of 130 ~ 148 km away --> Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 114 to 130 km away theoretically --> 100 ~ 114.


16. Maximal horizontal scanning angle of Radar：
* F-22A: +/- 60 degrees
* Su-35: +/-120 degrees
* EF-2K: +/- 70 degrees
* Rafale: +/- 60 degrees

17. Capability of multiple target engagement：
* F-22A: Tracking 100 and engaging 6+.
* Su-35: Tracking 30 and engaging 8.
* EF-2K: Tracking 20+ and engagine 6 to 8.
* Rafale: Tracking 40 and engaging 4 to 6.

18. Frontal minimal RCS / Ratio of RCS / Ratio of range being detected:
* F-22A: 0.00015 ~ 0.0006 m2 --> 1 ~ 4 --> 1.00 ~ 1.41
* Su-35: 1.0 ~ 3.0 m2 --> 6666 ~ 20000 --> 9.03 ~ 11.89
* EF-2K: 0.1 ~ 0.5 m2 --> 666 ~ 3333 --> 5.08 ~ 7.60
* Rafale: 0.1 ~ 0.2 m2 --> 666 ~ 1332 --> 5.08 ~ 6.04


19. Su-35 v.s other western fighters:

* Theoretically, F-22A shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 285 to 440 km / 200 to 308 km away in head to head engagement.
* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect / track F-22A at the range of 29 to 48 km / 17 to 34 km away in head to head engagement.

* Theoretically, EF-2K shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 153 to 272 km / 107 to 163 km away in head to head engagement.
* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect / track EF-2K at the range of 150 to 256 km / 90 to 180 km away in head to head engagement.

* Theoretically, Rafale shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 87 to 130 km / 52 to 91 km away in head to head engagement.
* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect / track Rafale at the range of 150 to 203 km / 90 to 142 km away in head to head engagement.

 

[DrSomnath999]

The MMRCA was for a medium weight category. something the SU35 is not .

they have to cite a reason not to allow it's entry into MMRCA contest may be that one was an excuse

 

[arp2041]

@Abingdonboy, i have few points to make here:

1. I don't understand why people are getting worried over su-35 sale to China so much, yes it's a good ac, but don't forget IAF has made a choice of Rafale on 640+ technical parameters & it came as the best.

2. I don't know how su-35 matches to Dassault Rafale, but I have enough trust on the Choice of one of the most professional AFs in the world - The IAF, I am 110% sure that they have made the best choice.

3. Don't forget, before this deal with China, Russia offered it to India, but IAF rejected it & instead gave go ahead for super sukhois, this means that super sukhois & other future upgrades of Su-30mki will be pretty CLOSE to the standards of Su-35s.

4. We are in the process of inducting 4 different ac in the near future:

FGFA, LCA, Rafale, Super Sukhois. There will be a time when we will be inducting all four or atleast 3 of them in parallel, so there is no need for any worry at all.

5. The most important point which i want to make is a question, as to why China is going for Su-35s (a 4++ gen ac) on the first place, when there are reports of as much as three ac projects of 5th gen which China is working on & is predicted to induct around the same time as su-35s??

I think we should forget what China & Pakistan are planning to induct & just work on our own future projects - FGFA, Super Sukhois, LCA, Rafale, AMCA. This way we are well on verge to become one of the best AFs around the world.

 

[Abingdonboy]

5. The most important point which i want to make is a question, as to why China is going for Su-35s (a 4++ gen ac) on the first place, when there are reports of as much as three ac projects of 5th gen which China is working on & is predicted to induct around the same time as su-35s??

I have been making a similar point ever since I heard this sale was a possiblity. There is only one logical conclusion anyone can draw from the Keen interest of the Chinese in his platform- it is a public admission that the so-called 5th gen fighter (they call the. 4th gen) are nothing more than fancy looking flying hollow shells. And that China doesn't have the experience or ability in designing and producing high-end tech like AESA radars, EW systems or contemporary jet engines or at least isn't able to develop these techs to the required standard.

 

[sancho]

well brio either sukois or rafales you aint gonna get any respite any time soon...

That's not the point of the thread (if there is a real point anyway), especially since he just asked a question. Please don't make a blame game out of it, since the thread will attract a lot of trolls anyway.

 

[SEAL]

SU-35 is also test bed for many 5th gen systems of PAK-FA like the powerful AESA radar IMO SU-35 is serious threat.