Used F16's - EDA 50 ~ 100 Available

[Khafee]

quick question to anyone who has the/reasonable answer.

during the early/mid 2000's when the airforce was searching for a new fighter why didn't they look at twin engine (eft/rafale) options more seriously? sure the f16 blk 52's have cft's and 600 gallon fuel tanks good enough for New Dehli and back but still brings up the point. or is New Delhi enough ?

It had something to do with PAF's "defensive doctrine". A twin engine like Rafay/EFT would fall in to the "offensive doctrine" category.

 

[SQ8]

It had something to do with PAF's "defensive doctrine". A twin engine like Rafay/EFT would fall in to the "offensive doctrine" category.

quick question to anyone who has the/reasonable answer.

during the early/mid 2000's when the airforce was searching for a new fighter why didn't they look at twin engine (eft/rafale) options more seriously? sure the f16 blk 52's have cft's and 600 gallon fuel tanks good enough for New Dehli and back but still brings up the point. or is New Delhi enough ?

They did. The EFT was abandoned due to the compelxities involved diplomatically in convincing multiple nations to agree to the deal especially when their local parliament and governing bodies had apprehension on working with dictators and offending India.

The rafale was offered at an inflated price which the PAF could not afford.

The F-16 procurement is completely independent to the PAF's strike fighter requirements

 

[Blue Marlin]

It had something to do with PAF's "defensive doctrine". A twin engine like Rafay/EFT would fall in to the "offensive doctrine" category.

hmm....quiet a strange doctrine the iaf is larger than pakistan and can just chip away at pakistan till theres a breach.
there must has to be some form of offensive capability that will make the adversary think twice.

They did. The EFT was discarded due to the compelxities involved diplomatically in convincing multiple nations to agree to the deal especially when their local parliament and governing bodies had apprehension on working with dictators and offending India.

The rafale was offered at an inflated price which the PAF could not afford.

well with the wot going on in afganistan and with a bit of a push im sure mr blair would have pulled some strings.
heck look at the saudis the germans tried to block the sale but still went ahead after the uk pushed forward with it.
yeah sure its the saudis who have money coming out of every crevice but it diplomacy (threat) made the deal happen.

how much was the inflation as a percentage? i dont expect you to know the exact figure but a good/educated guess would be?

 

[Sully3]

This is what he said: In 2008 when the SU30 flew over pakistan---Paf was a chicken---only thing it could do was just take a picture of it from behind---even though it was well inside pakistan territory---it was scared to shoot it down.

Where is the evidence for this?

not sure who it was either bush or Obama but the SU30 came 5 miles into the pakistani side, f16 had it on lock and a picture was taken and sent to the USA president at the time with the caption being "tell them next time we will shoot it down"

 

[Khafee]

hmm....quiet a strange doctrine the iaf is larger than pakistan and can just chip away at pakistan till theres a breach.
there must has to be some form of offensive capability that will make the adversary think twice.


well with the wot going on in afganistan and with a bit of a push im sure mr blair would have pulled some strings.
heck look at the saudis the germans tried to block the sale but still went ahead after the uk pushed forward with it.
yeah sure its the saudis who have money coming out of every crevice but it diplomacy (threat) made the deal happen.

how much was the inflation as a percentage? i dont expect you to know the exact figure but a good/educated guess would be?

Don't worry there is a back up plan as well.

 

[SQ8]

hmm....quiet a strange doctrine the iaf is larger than pakistan and can just chip away at pakistan till theres a breach.
there must has to be some form of offensive capability that will make the adversary think twice.


well with the wot going on in afganistan and with a bit of a push im sure mr blair would have pulled some strings.
heck look at the saudis the germans tried to block the sale but still went ahead after the uk pushed forward with it.
yeah sure its the saudis who have money coming out of every crevice but it diplomacy (threat) made the deal happen.

how much was the inflation as a percentage? i dont expect you to know the exact figure but a good/educated guess would be?

The EF can still be "bought", but there are certain guarantees in support that the PAF wants which not all partners are willing to give; and there are financial guarantees the consortium wants that the PAF has not completely got a foothold on.

The Rafale was offered at a price greater than that given to Singapore during the same timeframe. That is the extent to which I am aware of.

Finally, I would not discount the offensive strike capability of the F-16 that easily against the IAF

 

[araz]

Regarding stupidity of F-16 purchase with prior knowledge and experience of sanctions, my subject was PAF not you.

Thank you for clarifying that!

Our financial problems, they are not going to go away anywhere as long as we keep finding billions in politicians houses and we keep letting them walk free instead of roasting them alive with their whole families.

Agreed however in any sane land people are innocent unless proven guilty. It is in such times that our judicial and financial monitoring system fails us miserably therefore even if cases are brought against these people they cannot be proven. Dr Awsim Hussain is just one example

In my opinion (and I may be totally wrong on that) Affordability issue is not even a factor, or relevant, if it is, It MUST NOT be. We were not even able to finance our nuclear program but our leadership saw the need (for survival) and they managed it one way or the other, we were not able to finance the missile research and all, but again people at the top saw the need and we managed that, Pakistan is not a poor country, there are billions of dollars stacked away in our politicians houses, it is not difficult to recover 30/40 billion in hard cash with the help of one sharp spear (to shove up the arse) and one sharp machete (to chop off the heads) of each and every single member of these corrupt politicians. Financing 100 J10's is not difficult, I would happily kill 100/1000 politicians to save the millions and the country. No price is ever too high to spend on saving the honour of the country.

The examples quoted are not compatible as the impact of a missile programme or the nuke programme are not the same as buying a new fighter.


Regarding the solution, how many J10's we could have bought in the same amount that we paid for block 52's? and how many more we could have acquired on long-term loan is anybody's guess.

Regarding what J10 brings to the table? same capability as F-16 less the sanctions at a lower price at lower maintenance cost, at lower operating cost, with possibility of local manufacturing/assembling, gaining technical knowhow, using that knowhow in Thunder production, reducing average cost of Thunders due to higher utilization of manufacturing facilities, commonality of armament with thunder, selection/variety of armament, higher numbers (2~3 squadrons instead of 1), better range than thunder, better load then thunder, AESA, IRST, political freedom from USA, better leverage in negotiations, etc., etc....

Regarding the J10 there have been many reports regarding Russian reluctance to sell us the AL31 FN engine, observed flame outs of engines, loss of J10s due to engine failures. Capability wise as well there is no match between 16B52 and J10. In the words of John O'Connor "You cannot be serious!!"


In no way I am putting down Falcons, they are amazing machines with great capability, but if that "great" capability is not guaranteed (due to sanctions or shortage of spares and armaments) during a conflict then that peacetime capability is useless for us, and all the investment and training is also wasted, and it would be a lot better to get J10 with 80/90 percent guaranteed capability. In a layman terms I would prefer a sling shot for my defence than a gun that I can't fire in time of need.

I have already alluded to this point in my earlier posts, so no need to repeat myself.
A

PS: I am sorry this is my pathetic attempt at multiquote of yuor answer. Thats what you get when you debate oldies!!

 

[Blue Marlin]

Don't worry there is a back up plan as well.

i dont see it, unless if its saudi eft's and f15sa's and qatari rafales then yes i see it.

The EF can still be "bought", but there are certain guarantees in support that the PAF wants which not all partners are willing to give; and there are financial guarantees the consortium wants that the PAF has not completely got a foothold on.

The Rafale was offered at a price greater than that given to Singapore during the same timeframe. That is the extent to which I am aware of.

Finally, I would not discount the offensive strike capability of the F-16 that easily against the IAF

i was think after mr corker blocked the funding for the f16's the a pakistani offices said this: “Moscow has informed Islamabad about its willingness to sell a batch of advanced Sukhoi Su-35 fighters.”
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/05/16/****-m16.html

anyway the typhoons, now id imagine it would be easier to get hold of them as relations with all of the partners are warm. but there very expensive and are a pain to maintain but will be the most advance pieces of kit in south asia, obviously depending on the variant.

when you said pakistan wants support which some are not willing to give i assume you mean parts/maintenance in war time right?

as for the rafale the eft consortium, dassault and boeing were fighting for the contract so a low ball offer was inevitable, whilst pakistan did not have the luxury of being offered the eft and the f15 was given the high ball offer as it was the only one they had.

 

[Khafee]

i dont see it, unless if its saudi eft's and f15sa's and qatari rafales then yes i see it.

I cannot confirm, or deny, you will have to contact the PAF.

 

[Blue Marlin]

I cannot confirm, or deny, you will have to contact the PAF.

that means yes im right, if you wanted to keep mum on the idea then you should not have replied.

 

[Khafee]

that means yes im right, if you wanted to keep mum on the idea then you should not have replied.

No that does not mean that. Before jumping west, you should have jumped east.

 

[Blue Marlin]

No that does not mean that. Before jumping west, you should have jumped east.

i never jumped.

 

[SQ8]

i dont see it, unless if its saudi eft's and f15sa's and qatari rafales then yes i see it.


i was think after mr corker blocked the funding for the f16's the a pakistani offices said this: “Moscow has informed Islamabad about its willingness to sell a batch of advanced Sukhoi Su-35 fighters.”
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/05/16/****-m16.html

anyway the typhoons, now id imagine it would be easier to get hold of them as relations with all of the partners are warm. but there very expensive and are a pain to maintain but will be the most advance pieces of kit in south asia, obviously depending on the variant.

when you said pakistan wants support which some are not willing to give i assume you mean parts/maintenance in war time right?

as for the rafale the eft consortium, dassault and boeing were fighting for the contract so a low ball offer was inevitable, whilst pakistan did not have the luxury of being offered the eft and the f15 was given the high ball offer as it was the only one they had.

Something along those lines
The PAF wanted some local spares stock and operational spares capability within PAC that fringed on ToT

 

[Blue Marlin]

Something along those lines
The PAF wanted some local spares stock and operational spares capability within PAC that fringed on ToT

i thought right now all procurement must have some form of tot and local production, "ikea style" is not included. i believe the percentage is 35% right?

do you think they would bite the bullet and go for 36 typhoons or not?
personally i would not bother and go for more f16's

you already have great experience with them and can be inducted on delivery and has a "decent" range

 

[SQ8]

i thought right now all procurement must have some form of tot and local production, "ikea style" is not included. i believe the percentage is 35% right?

do you think they would bite the bullet and go for 36 typhoons or not?
personally i would not bother and go for more f16's

you already have great experience with them and can be inducted on delivery and has a "decent" range

The F-16s add a good punch with minimal effort so they are a good option for the PAF.

I would not discount the Typhoon out as of yet.