Used F16's - EDA 50 ~ 100 Available

[Blue Marlin]

The F-16s add a good punch with minimal effort so they are a good option for the PAF.

I would not discount the Typhoon out as of yet.

i think more f16's are preferred as i remember you saying pakistan has been buying f16 spares and has a good inventory.

there wont be a problem buying the parts for the typhoon but be prepared for them to be expensive as theres not alot of typhoon clients as compared to f16 users.

also it would depend on how many typhoons pakistan is interested in, 36 is to low to challenge the rafale and the mki, 72 would be the sweet spot but that would be expensive and would eat into money probably for a 5th gen fighter.

 

[ghazi768]

quick question to anyone who has the/reasonable answer.

during the early/mid 2000's when the airforce was searching for a new fighter why didn't they look at twin engine (eft/rafale) options more seriously? sure the f16 blk 52's have cft's and 600 gallon fuel tanks good enough for New Dehli and back but still brings up the point. or is New Delhi enough ?

What do you think will be the range of these two fighters:

a) Rafaela with two 600 gallon and one centreline 790 gallon, combined 8,300 kg plus of fuel
b) F-16 with two 600 gallon and one CFT with 450 gallon, combined 6,667 kg plus of fuel (F-16 will not be using centre line tank for this question)

 

[Blue Marlin]

What do you think will be the range of these two fighters:

a) Rafaela with two 600 gallon and one centreline 790 gallon, combined 8,300 kg plus of fuel
b) F-16 with two 600 gallon and one CFT with 450 gallon, combined 6,667 kg plus of fuel (F-16 will not be using centre line tank for this question)

no idea

 

[ghazi768]

no idea

Than why are you implying that :

sure the f16 blk 52's have cft's and 600 gallon fuel tanks good enough for New Dehli and back but still brings up the point. or is New Delhi enough ?

 

[el nino]

PAF had remained outnumbered all its history, and the difference was higher in past than now. I doubt very much that we are outgunned, it may be the other way around.
Also in three services, I think PAF is the least outnumbered with Navy the most

In the past the Pakistanis had USA and china backing them.

They had superior equipment and training especially the French mirages and then later the f16 .

The last two decades the roles have reversed in particular the huge order for su30mki which currently outnumbers the f16 by 3 to 1. But the advantages go much beyond this the flanker brought war fighting doctrine that Pakistan still lacks even now

Irst
Hmd and hobs missle combo
Tvc engines
Massive range and payload
Data linking to other fighters

To date the Pakistanis have made a half hearted attempt to bridge the gap via a taoken order of 18 block 52 and entry of the lightweight thunders whose block 1 and 2 lack even a chinease hmd and hobs combo.

At this moment in time one mki with twice the range and armament and twice the fuel with huge radars and Israeli jammers could tackle even two or three paf fighters

Starting adding in over 150mig29 and mica equipped mirage 2000 the scenario becomes clear

Overall numbers advantage is less than two to one

But firepower and operational range is closer to three to one

 

[Blue Marlin]

Than why are you implying that :

sure the f16 blk 52's have cft's and 600 gallon fuel tanks good enough for New Dehli and back but still brings up the point. or is New Delhi enough ?

just saying, does pakistan want to scare the sh!t out of north indians in UP, tone them down a little.
id read that north indians are more "aggressive" than their southern counterparts.

well i think new dehli is enough for now i guess, whats more scary when the capital is in range of an adversary.
mind you its not exactly hard for india to hit islamabad.

so yeah more f16's would do just fine. it would have been good to have the rafale or the typhoon early/mid 2000's but sadly we cant change the past now just move forward.

what would be a good idea is a alcm small enough to fit inside a 5th gen fighter like the som-j or jsm.(irrelevant to the thread)

 

[MastanKhan]

Ouch sir. I know you enjoy to insult but come on....how can you say that regarding the air force.

Hi,

Did you find any other goodies in that shipment from UAE.

 

[ghazi768]

just saying, does pakistan want to scare the sh!t out of north indians in UP, tone them down a little.
id read that north indians are more "aggressive" than their southern counterparts.

well i think new dehli is enough for now i guess, whats more scary when the capital is in range of an adversary.
mind you its not exactly hard for india to hit islamabad.

so yeah more f16's would do just fine. it would have been good to have the rafale or the typhoon early/mid 2000's but sadly we cant change the past now just move forward.

what would be a good idea is a alcm small enough to fit inside a 5th gen fighter like the som-j or jsm.(irrelevant to the thread)

ok, I know that people imply lower range to certain fighters and more range to others especially twin engined. May be this is because of they look at weight of the fighter and weight of fuel it can carry and than work out what ever impression they want to work out. But engine thrust do not work against weight of the fighter, it works against the DRAG of the fighter. You must have friends in UK forces, find what is that standard drags at medium altitudes for EF in transonic range and let me know if you find any value which is less than three times the F-16. As a crude example F4 had five times the drag of F-16 while flying CLEAN, F-15's is between 3 to 4 time while CLEAN.

The issues of striking inside India is not of range, I'll give you a crude example. It is one thing to fly out of France some where, get refuelled on the way and than hit within 50-100 kms of Libyan coast. You practically have to worry about 100-150 kms of 'risky flight' even if that obsolete Libyan air force was able to fly (which it was not, all its fighters were grounded). Now try flying from Warsaw and going to hit Muscovy with same Rafale or EF and work out how to get it and yourself back in one piece. Getting a 1000km in enemy territory to a target is far less of an issue than actually getting back from there.

 

[MastanKhan]

Ouch sir. I know you enjoy to insult but come on....how can you say that regarding the air force.

Hi,

I am not here to insult them---. I am just showing the picture they have tried to hide.

The Karachi missile strike----no interest in flying a support aircaft for Atlantique---and no support for the army tank strike into indian territory---major major events.

These are just some of the known that had leaked out---. If there are 3 major major deceptions---then I bet that there are another 30 that got hidden under and pushed under the rug---.

 

[SQ8]

For any people interested in accounts of PAF history and errors

I recommend Acdre Sajjad Haider's book "Flight of the Falcon"

ACdre Mansoor Shah's book "The gold bird"

ACdre Kaiser Tufails accounts add to it

The first two are fighting men who were in the war and are celebrated by their friends and foes alike.
The third gentleman is well respected among most knowledgeable air warfare analysts for the subcontinent

It is always good to critique, but better to get information and knowledge from those who actually are qualified and experienced in the matter to comment on them rather than internet divas.

Additionally, these are all publicly available and verifiable accounts. There is no traitorous secret to be revealed, anyone claiming so is defrauding you and willfully maligning the name of the PAF with hot air.
If anything, giving misleading and unverifiable information to those seeking it is a traitorous act against morals itself.

 

[ghazi768]

I do not remember ever reading any thing of a PIA or any other aircraft having detected Indian Navy while on its approach, if anyone knows of any reliable sources or books about it than please let me know.

The only incident I had read of such nature in 71 war is when a PIA fokker was commandeered for reconnaissance after the Indian Navy operation, it was carrying naval observers. It was an unfortunate case of fratricide in which our naval observers mistook one of our frigates as an Indian missile boat. Navy ordered PAF to take it out, this resulted in many officers and sailors being martyred, read about PNS Zulfiqar.

You cannot read an enemy's mind to work out if he is so mischievous to even shoot down an unarmed aircraft during PEACE TIME.

If anyone can even show me a single record of Army even making a request (what to talk about 72 hours in advance) before operation to restart that FOB which is now talked about, I'll rest my case.

 

[Blue Marlin]

For any people interested in accounts of PAF history and errors

I recommend Acdre Sajjad Haider's book "Flight of the Falcon"

ACdre Mansoor Shah's book "The gold bird"

ACdre Kaiser Tufails accounts add to it

The first two are fighting men who were in the war and are celebrated by their friends and foes alike.
The third gentleman is well respected among most knowledgeable air warfare analysts for the subcontinent

It is always good to critique, but better to get information and knowledge from those who actually are qualified and experienced in the matter to comment on them rather than internet divas.

Additionally, these are all publicly available and verifiable accounts. There is no traitorous secret to be revealed, anyone claiming so is defrauding you and willfully maligning the name of the PAF with hot air.
If anything, giving misleading and unverifiable information to those seeking it is a traitorous act against morals itself.

im sure you have friends who may know them. i recall horus doing an interview mr tufail. do you think its possible for an interview ?

 

[SQ8]

I do not remember ever reading any thing of a PIA or any other aircraft having detected Indian Navy while on its approach, if anyone knows of any reliable sources or books about it than please let me know.

The only incident I had read of such nature in 71 war is when a PIA fokker was commandeered for reconnaissance after the Indian Navy operation, it was carrying naval observers. It was an unfortunate case of fratricide in which our naval observers mistook one of our frigates as an Indian missile boat. Navy ordered PAF to take it out, this resulted in many officers and sailors being martyred, read about PNS Zulfiqar.

You cannot read an enemy's mind to work out if he is so mischievous to even shoot down an unarmed aircraft during PEACE TIME.

If anyone can even show me a single record of Army even making a request (what to talk about 72 hours in advance) before operation to restart that FOB which is now talked about, I'll rest my case.

Both books I have mentioned from the well known and well respected PAF officers have mentioned the Army making in inquiry regarding air support in the sector which the PAF had warned was not available as advance notice at least 24 hours was required to activate the FOB for support and had advised the Army to not launch the operation.

Further requests during the longewala disaster were also fruitless as the only PAF aircraft in the area that could get there from masroor could only stay in the area for 5 minutes and then needed to exit.
Yet, the Army still launched this fruitless foray because of overconfidence and foolhardiness (just as with Kargil) and cost precious lives.

PAF had no naval capability at all during 71 and was helpless as such. The friendly fire incident you mentioned is the result of pilots being untrained and ill equipped to provide effective support.
All of this was also mentioned and covered in Hamood-ur-rehman commission.

There are glaring failures by the PAF and accounts of the retired tend to pass blame around, although some names of known machiavellian sycophants are repeated as key hinderances to effective operations.
Some are just the result of shuffling officers at critical times and indecisiveness by otherwise good individuals

Either way, the topic was EDA F-16s which @Khafee had brought up and their potential- makes no sense to derail it for one person's self aggrandizement.

im sure you have friends who may know them. i recall horus doing an interview mr tufail. do you think its possible for an interview ?

Those interviews are available on the forum.
I know one of the gentleman by virtue of knowing a very senior B-57 pilot and being raised in that environment.
But that is irrelevant as their books cover most incidents and mentionable events in their tenures.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Both books I have mentioned from the well known and well respected PAF officers have mentioned the Army making in inquiry regarding air support in the sector which the PAF had warned was not available as advance notice at least 24 hours was required to activate the FOB for support and had advised the Army to not launch the operation.

Further requests during the longewala disaster were also fruitless as the only PAF aircraft in the area that could get there from masroor could only stay in the area for 5 minutes and then needed to exit.
Yet, the Army still launched this fruitless foray because of overconfidence and foolhardiness (just as with Kargil) and cost precious lives.

PAF had no naval capability at all during 71 and was helpless as such. The friendly fire incident you mentioned is the result of pilots being untrained and ill equipped to provide effective support.
All of this was also mentioned and covered in Hamood-ur-rehman commission.

There are glaring failures by the PAF and accounts of the retired tend to pass blame around, although some names of known machiavellian sycophants are repeated as key hinderances to effective operations.
Some are just the result of shuffling officers at critical times and indecisiveness by otherwise good individuals

Either way, the topic was EDA F-16s which @Khafee had brought up and their potential- makes no sense to derail it for one person's self aggrandizement.


Those interviews are available on the forum.
I know one of the gentleman by virtue of knowing a very senior B-57 pilot and being raised in that environment.
But that is irrelevant as their books cover most incidents and mentionable events in their tenures.

i have read the interviews i can find i was thinking a reinterview or even a new interview of some current/former paf officer.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Typhoon is a natural Upgrade over the F16 , would work out well with inventory between 50-100 Units

The F16 EDA "hypothetical" debate is more less a scenario is reasonable plan for a support unit. We already know JF17 Thunder will lift more of the Load for Day to Day duties and heavy duty operations.

• Typhoon (High End Option) , 50-100 Units
  
• JF17 Block 1/2/3 - Core Load bearer Over Pakistan's Skies <BACKBONE>
  
• F16 Fleet , hopefully 150 Units (Defensive Air Protection)

J10B, I love it and same with J-31 also a great platform etc , if J-31 is done its testing and if it is fully integrated with systems etc remains to be seen