Twin Engined J-10? What Happened to it

[Deino]

I think you are very angry and upset and now resorting to emojis and name calling. Which started from a different thread and then you decided to migrate here to troll. You're also off topic. If you don't like the topic, go elsewhere.
I'm going to stop replying and hope you can take your business elsewhere.

PS: I think this is the kind of behavior that caused your mod powers outside the international threads to be revoked. You seem unable to learn the lesson.

I never got any moderator rights besides in the China section and I still don't get what a BS you are talking?? You are offering in the JF-17 section to help others by business plans and papers which are most irrelevant and now again accuse other of trolling while you insist in name-calling.

By the way, the whole thread is OFF-topic to the PAF but eventually you deliberately did not post it in the China section in order to avoid any moderation.

What a pathetic liar.

 

[Armchair]

Such an aircraft would have been quite relevant to the PAF as the twin engines would be RD-93 / WS-13. Which means commonality with the JF-17. There was also a lot of talk in those days about the PAF being interested in the J-10. Two interesting coincidences.

 

[Deino]

Such an aircraft would have been quite relevant to the PAF as the twin engines would be RD-93 / WS-13. Which means commonality with the JF-17. There was also a lot of talk in those days about the PAF being interested in the J-10. Two interesting coincidences.

"Would have been" is the correct description, but that would be a what-if thread at best. Given the title you chose "Twin Engined J-10? What Happened to it" it would be a thread for the China section but anyway, You already got your reply from several others including me: it's dead !

1. we don't even know if it was ever a real project.
2. if it was ever real, r´then it was cancelled long ago and is no longer a viable option
3. if the PAF indeed is interested in a medium-weight Chinese fighter then it can only hope for the J-10B/C (at the cost of a different engine), the FC-31 (at the cost of not being finished) or something new like AZM, but surely not this one.
4. I know our friend MK thinks since some time in this direction and even if in principle I agree with him, it is not that easy to simply (as he always says) add a second engine to the J-10 since this would be de fact a new aircraft and I'm sure CHina won't pay for it esp when the FC-31 is the same one generation ahead.

 

[Armchair]

"Would have been" is the correct description, but that would be a what-if thread at best. Given the title you chose "Twin Engined J-10? What Happened to it" it would be a thread for the China section but anyway, You already got your reply from several others including me: it's dead !

1. we don't even know if it was ever a real project.
2. if it was ever real, r´then it was cancelled long ago and is no longer a viable option
3. if the PAF indeed is interested in a medium-weight Chinese fighter then it can only hope for the J-10B/C (at the cost of a different engine), the FC-31 (at the cost of not being finished) or something new like AZM, but surely not this one.
4. I know our friend MK thinks since some time in this direction and even if in principle I agree with him, it is not that easy to simply (as he always says) add a second engine to the J-10 since this would be de fact a new aircraft and I'm sure CHina won't pay for it esp when the FC-31 is the same one generation ahead.

I'd still like to see if there are any other opinions about it. I find the idea of a twin engined J-10 (or a single engined Azm) interesting.

XXXXXX

Just to bring the thread back to what was being discussed before we were interrupted:

About the Azm, although its a bit off topic here, I was actually rethinking everything last night based on @TheTallGuy 's assertion that Azm is a replica of the JF-17. This actually makes perfect sense - its the least risky development proposal.

Basically, a larger, stealthier JF-17. Something like the Hornet and the Super Hornet. An engine is readily available for this - the WS-10 / WS-15. This is incidentally what @MastanKhan originally wanted - a larger JF-17. Make it somewhat stealthy, put a laser, and viola, Azm is born!

This would allow a 2025 launch for the product quite easily, which allows for a block 4 and block 5 before bringing the Azm into service. What's more - it can easily use the subsystems bin of the J-10C / E as well as the J-31 / 35.

It would perhaps also be a good export product as a relatively low cost fighter for the 2020s/30s. Laser replacing the gun, and perhaps semi-recessed hardpoints on the body.

@TheTallGuy I saw you were on the thread. Would love to hear your input on this.

 

[Deino]

I'd still like to see if there are any other opinions about it. I find the idea of a twin engined J-10 (or a single engined Azm) interesting.

Now we agree ... me too! But as some sort of personnel taste, I like such threads as "theoretical" playing and won't overrate them since time has changed and I really don't think, with the J-35 on the horizon, this is a realistic option anymore. Otherwise it is too much like "will Turkey develop a VSTOL variant of the Hurjet trainer to operate from the LHD?"

By the way ...

And funny ... I know it almost since 13 years!

 

[LeGenD]

Members are requested to not insult and flamebait each other, thank you.

 

[The Raven]

I'd still like to see if there are any other opinions about it. I find the idea of a twin engined J-10 (or a single engined Azm) interesting.

XXXXXX

Just to bring the thread back to what was being discussed before we were interrupted:

About the Azm, although its a bit off topic here, I was actually rethinking everything last night based on @TheTallGuy 's assertion that Azm is a replica of the JF-17. This actually makes perfect sense - its the least risky development proposal.

Basically, a larger, stealthier JF-17. Something like the Hornet and the Super Hornet. An engine is readily available for this - the WS-10 / WS-15. This is incidentally what @MastanKhan originally wanted - a larger JF-17. Make it somewhat stealthy, put a laser, and viola, Azm is born!

This would allow a 2025 launch for the product quite easily, which allows for a block 4 and block 5 before bringing the Azm into service. What's more - it can easily use the subsystems bin of the J-10C / E as well as the J-31 / 35.

It would perhaps also be a good export product as a relatively low cost fighter for the 2020s/30s. Laser replacing the gun, and perhaps semi-recessed hardpoints on the body.

@TheTallGuy I saw you were on the thread. Would love to hear your input on this.

He meant replica in terms of replicating the JF-17 programme (Chinese/PAC collaboration) rather than actually physically doubling up the JF-17 with two engines, as that would be utterly stupid.

 

[TheTallGuy]

@Armchair
I need to clarify, lets separate we we are discussing 3 x points.

Twin Engine J10.
Project Azm.
Possible J10 or J20 purchase/PAF pilots in Chendgu.

Twin Engine J10.
The idea of 2 x Engine J10 is J20A (evolution) it is simple as that..the concept you have shown tell is you it old why look at the intake...

Project Azm.
This where you have understood correctly - PAC or Pakistan itself does not have the required technology or technical experience to pull it off except replicating JF17 Project.what different is this time we are in learning curve previously Chinese were in learning curve because of our experience in operating F16s and weapon system deployment.

So, every thing points to joint collaboration remember we do not have experience in 5th Gen aircraft - Zero/nada where as PLAAF is operating 1 x 5th Gen fighter and developing an other.

My personal believe is Project Azm is J31/35 but that is my opinion. its seems a logical!

Possible J10C or J20A purchase/PAF pilots at Chengdu
I have no doubt they are there for operational conversion course logical seems J10C but as situation are developing it could be J20A (With Chinese Engines)..

Now, Upgrading JF17 what i understand Physical air-frame is optimal for the requirement developed in 1990s. there is a limit. for upgrade physical terms i sincerely believe Block 3 is last of new built...as PAF will move on to Project AZM.

Now, at the moment in this situation what important is what we have now which is operational and pilots are combat trained, tactics are well versed and Confidence in weapon systems employed.

 

[KaiserX]

@Armchair
I need to clarify, lets separate we we are discussing 3 x points.

Twin Engine J10.
Project Azm.
Possible J10 or J20 purchase/PAF pilots in Chendgu.

Twin Engine J10.
The idea of 2 x Engine J10 is J20A (evolution) it is simple as that..the concept you have shown tell is you it old why look at the intake...

Project Azm.
This where you have understood correctly - PAC or Pakistan itself does not have the required technology or technical experience to pull it off except replicating JF17 Project.what different is this time we are in learning curve previously Chinese were in learning curve because of our experience in operating F16s and weapon system deployment.

So, every thing points to joint collaboration remember we do not have experience in 5th Gen aircraft - Zero/nada where as PLAAF is operating 1 x 5th Gen fighter and developing an other.

My personal believe is Project Azm is J31/35 but that is my opinion. its seems a logical!

Possible J10C or J20A purchase/PAF pilots at Chengdu
I have no doubt they are there for operational conversion course logical seems J10C but as situation are developing it could be J20A (With Chinese Engines)..

Now, Upgrading JF17 what i understand Physical air-frame is optimal for the requirement developed in 1990s. there is a limit. for upgrade physical terms i sincerely believe Block 3 is last of new built...as PAF will move on to Project AZM.

Now, at the moment in this situation what important is what we have now which is operational and pilots are combat trained, tactics are well versed and Confidence in weapon systems employed.

Pakistan would not go for J-20 because we do not need a heavy long range jet like the j-20 whose main purpose is to strike across the pacific at long ranges to reach US bases and naval assets while taking on the latest American jets.

Project Azm will be a J-20 Lite judging from the recent designs the PAF leaked on the C-130. A smaller, stealthy, more efficient version of the J-20. PAF will likely take 2 directions when it comes to 5th generation platforms:

1. Domestically built Azm
2. Purchase of the J-31 since it is most similar to the JF-17.

PAF in 2030:

- 50 AZM fighters
- 100 J-31s
-250 JF-17 block 3/4
- 75 F-16s

Backed by:
-20 AWACS
-20 EW Jaming jets
- 10 Ariel Refuelers

 

[Syed1.]

J-20 is not for export.

 

[Indos]

J-20 is not for export.

I think J 20 will be for export if the engine uses Chinese one, similar way just like J 10 which is offered to another country starting this year when it has already used Chinese engine.

 

[The Raven]

J-20 has never and will never be for export. Even the J-10 was made available only relatively recently, and even then an export version. The FC-31 is China's dedicated export fifth gen fighter.

 

[Ultima Thule]

I'd still like to see if there are any other opinions about it. I find the idea of a twin engined J-10 (or a single engined Azm) interesting.

XXXXXX

Just to bring the thread back to what was being discussed before we were interrupted:

About the Azm, although its a bit off topic here, I was actually rethinking everything last night based on @TheTallGuy 's assertion that Azm is a replica of the JF-17. This actually makes perfect sense - its the least risky development proposal.

Basically, a larger, stealthier JF-17. Something like the Hornet and the Super Hornet. An engine is readily available for this - the WS-10 / WS-15. This is incidentally what @MastanKhan originally wanted - a larger JF-17. Make it somewhat stealthy, put a laser, and viola, Azm is born!

This would allow a 2025 launch for the product quite easily, which allows for a block 4 and block 5 before bringing the Azm into service. What's more - it can easily use the subsystems bin of the J-10C / E as well as the J-31 / 35.

It would perhaps also be a good export product as a relatively low cost fighter for the 2020s/30s. Laser replacing the gun, and perhaps semi-recessed hardpoints on the body.

@TheTallGuy I saw you were on the thread. Would love to hear your input on this.

their will be no stealth version of JFT according to PAF and former air chief Marshall

 

[MastanKhan]

J-20 also has front canards. I wonder if the design compromise was due to the engine power?

Hi,

That is a thought to ponder upon---.

 

[Armchair]

Thanks for breaking the discussion down to their logical components. I think that clarifies the situation a bit.

My personal believe is Project Azm is J31/35 but that is my opinion. its seems a logical!

That's interesting but there is one major problem. J-31 is a SAC product while PAF is collaborating with CAC (Chengdu). Which actually puts everything in a tailspin.
SAC also doesn't have any real experience in designing new airplanes. J-31 is pretty much their first real venture unless you count the J-8s.

From a deductive viewpoint, the following are possible:

1. That the info that Pak is collaborating with CAC on a new aircraft is wrong. But there is a lot of history to back this up.
2. That PAF is collaborating with Chengdu but the aircraft is a derivative of the J-31. This would not make sense, because it would be a sticking point between SAC and CAC who are rivals. I don't see SAC handing over their design to CAC so they can play with it for Pakistan.
3. That CAC is collaborating on a new design with PAC and this is the Azm. Which somehow will end up looking a lot like the J-31. This doesn't make sense as there is duplication of effort then.
4. That the design collaboration with CAC is not the J-31 or remotely like it. The benefit of a delta canard is about 20% greater performance for a given set of parameters. They are also more useful for high altitude and high speed combat that BVR combat is drubbing down to. Height and speed gives your aircraft a range advantage against the enemy.

The last point is where the twin engined J-10 development comes in. Or not. I am truly confounded.

J-20 also has front canards. I wonder if the design compromise was due to the engine power?

All aircraft designs are compromises. Europe and China chose to go the delta canard route, even though Rafale was also designed with stealth in mind. Russia and the US went the conventional route, although to be fair, the F-23 was the design that should have one and would have essentially been a third design choice - one with a large delta-like wing and twin canted tails. And thrust vectoring.