PakPositivism: How to manage Discourse for PakPosters on PDF!!!

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Exactly. Again its not limited to religion difference. All indians hate Pakistan. This Joy is a dangerous guy. He wants all Pakistani to lower their guard down. Think of common indians as peaceful people. Here is the reality of what common indians think of Pakistani people.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1285202523595452418

So they don't even like Pakistani Hindus. Just shows that this is not just about religion but race too. Explains why a lot of indian Muslims are anti-Pakistani too.

 

[Joe Shearer]

We warned India about it about RSS about Hinduvta ideology. No Pakistani is surprised but im sure many millions that you speak of who didn't pay attention are the one surprised.

YOU warned India?

I can't answer that. I am bereft of words.

My son-in-law just published his book based on his PhD thesis on the denial of justice to the victims in Gujarat.

Just hang on while I tell him that he knew nothing about all this until you personally told him. He will want to know.

What election results, I aplogise if I missed any of your previous posts, but your elections are fought and won on Muslim and Pakistan hatred.

I quoted the percentage of the popular vote that the BJP and allies won, and that indicates that it is just about one-third of the voting people. 61% voted otherwise. They did not vote against Muslims, or for hatred of Pakistan.

CAA protest prove my point rather than yours, an oppressed minority and that took the lead and a minority of people from other communities supported them, look at the result, the roits and the killings that followed.

No, a thousand times no. There were myriads of Hindus and Sikhs - the Sikhs were the most prominent, bless them - who stood by, or joined the protesters.

We stand outraged and helpless at the miscarriage of justice that followed the riots, the killings and the police cases. These are positions freely available in the media.

No one said good people do not exist in India, obviously they do, anyone who says otherwise is an idiot or says it in a moment of emotional outburst. What I and we are saying is that those people are in a minority, we are referring to a large majority that is full of hate.

On the contrary, I put it to you that it is a minority, a very active and very manipulative minority, that is occluding the wishes and opinions of the majority.

I went through this exact same thing when the Naxalites overran Calcutta in 1967-70. How ironic that at the end of my life, I have to see it again.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Pakistan is nothing but an ideology.. putting Pakistan in bad light is not putting a state under bad light, but is a war of ideologies and civilizations...

@Mangus Ortus Novem @PakSword @masterchief_mirza @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

It's a part of the relentless Mujadele between Iman vs Kufr, starting from the dawn of the creation of Jinn and Insan...

Iman and Kufr share Ga'libiyet and Ma'lubiyet in cycles...

As for Pak, it was best understood by the Hakiki Muslims in BD after her creation!! And, it got manifested how the Mujib regime, the very personification of the absolute capitulation under India on a permanent basis, was eliminated!! Alas, it was short lived for Indira Gandhi bagged BD for the second time in 1981, when the Muslim President Zia-ur Rehman, an ex Pak Infantry/Intelligence officer with the citation in '65 war, was assassinated via a RAW counter ops...

 

[omegalamba7XL9]

YOU warned India?

Childish remark

My son-in-law just published his book based on his PhD thesis on the denial of justice to the victims in Gujarat.

Congratulations to your son-in-law. Just let him know he is 5 years too late. The criminal of Gujrat is now PM and cheered by Indians. Can you please pass him this info so that he can stop wasting his time. Note the date and time so you won't have to make childish remarks as you did.Thanks

 

[Joe Shearer]

Read my original post, the Indian mindset differentiates between a Pakistani (individual), Pakistanis (the collective) and Pakistan (nation, country, army for them it is interchangeable)

I really think that is so wrong.

My Pakistani friends are friends; I couldn't care less what their nationality is, or what their religion is, or even, most difficult, what their sexual orientation is. I have friends from many nationalities like that. (My daughter is bemused by this. She and her husband have a myriad Pakistani and Bangladeshi friends, and this nationality thing has never come up, nor has religion; they are both somewhat perplexed why I even mention this at times).

As far as Pakistanis in the collective are concerned, I was friends with some when Pakistan went through its worst phase, with bombings every day, with people dying every day, and with the tears of the world to be shed there every day. Anyone who say that they did not have our pity and our sympathy is a very unfortunate person.

I think Pakistan is a reality, and is slowly winning her way to evolving a distinct and valuable identity, on the lines that Indus Pakistan has suggested, and I am proud that Pakistanis have evolved to that position. I fear the Pakistan Army, the Pakistan Air Force even more, and hope that we will never come to war. If we do, I hope that your Army is heavily defeated and your Air Force is depleted to the core and within.

Does that answer your suggestion?

 

[xeuss]

Are you implying that indians in fact don't hate Pakistanis or Muslims and we have just imagined and made it all up?..............

Not all Indians hate Pakistan. Not all Hindus hate Pakistan. Sure, these are in a minority, but they do exist.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Childish remark

Congratulations to your son-in-law. Just let him know he is 5 years too late. The criminal of Gujrat is now PM and cheered by Indians. Can you please pass him this info so that he can stop wasting his time. Thanks

Oh, so a PhD gets done on the spot? Must tell him that he wasted five years at an eminent US university. How I wish you had been around to guide his academic path.

We honestly are not saying this to put India or Indians down, but we are tired of this hatred from across the border, and sorely wish our Indian brothers to join us for a new future. That is all. It cannot happen until the reality is recognised.

I have living proof that this is not there. So what can I say? I have made @PAKISTANFOREVER an offer, and I extend it to you.

Childish remark

Yes , it was. Childish and insolent.

 

[peagle]

I quoted the percentage of the popular vote that the BJP and allies won, and that indicates that it is just about one-third of the voting people. 61% voted otherwise. They did not vote against Muslims, or for hatred of Pakistan.

I would have to say, that this is a weak example/argument.

I really don’t believe every BJP voter hates Pakistan or Muslims, over 90% yes but not everyone, other than the personal reasons I have, a small minority of Muslims also have voted for BJP, out of fear or out of political convenience.
Neither do I believe that all the people who did not vote for BJP or support them do not hate Pakistan.

Your logic is based on conjecture, and assumes correlations between different issues.
Putting it simply just because one exists, does not mean the other has to exist, each has to be proved by its own merit.

Please remember, the Nazis did not have a majority in Germany even at the height of their power, but there was an atmosphere of hate, it was sufficient to create the results history is well aware of, the hate has to be recognised before it can be dealt with. If constantly its presence is refuted then there can be no solution.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I would have to say, that this is a weak example/argument.

Reasonable.

There is also a huge volume of analysis of these results that show more or less what I have said. I could, in a week, maybe a fortnight, collate those and put them across for your perusal and better acceptance.

I really don’t believe every BJP voter hates Pakistan or Muslims, other than the personal reasons I have, a small minority of Muslims also have voted for BJP, out of fear or out of political convenience.
Neither do I believe that all the people who did not vote for BJP or support them do not hate Pakistan.

I readily agree that all three parts are true. That in no way invalidates the core argument.

Your logic is based on conjecture, and assumes correlations between different issues.
Putting it simply just because one exists, does not mean the other has to exist, each has to be proved by its own merit.

How else should I have put it, given that it is not possible to torture the truth about their voting out of every individual voter?

Please remember, the Nazis did not have a majority in Germany even at the height of their power, but there was an atmosphere of hate, it was sufficient to create the results history is well aware of, the hate has to be recognised before it can be dealt with. If constantly its presence is refuted then there can be no solution.

You (and others on the thread) claim to know India well.

I ask you (collectively):

1. is it your case that this hatred of Pakistan, isolated from the hatred of Muslims, is a colloidal cloud uniformly spread over India?
2. Is it particular to certain locations?
3. Are there locations free of these abominations?

 

[xeuss]

I quoted the percentage of the popular vote that the BJP and allies won, and that indicates that it is just about one-third of the voting people. 61% voted otherwise. They did not vote against Muslims, or for hatred of Pakistan.

Joe, vote percentage is not a reliable indicator. You know you and I still have discuss this....

 

[omegalamba7XL9]

Oh, so a PhD gets done on the spot? Must tell him that he wasted five years at an eminent US university. How I wish you had been around to guide his academic path.

Lets not discuss your genius son in law from eminent school. You looked past the important fact AGAIN. He is 5 years too late and the criminal is your country's Prime Minister.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

There has been systematic derailment and "truck di batti" strategy at play again in this thread.

Dear members, Ideologies prevail over other ideologies, nationhood or any geo-construct has it's basis of existence until something else replace it. Not to be confused that it's always on ideological basis, sometimes other factors comes in to play eg. language, ethnicity, common values, culture or shared interests.

To answer the end game of Indians, one must understand the construct of India in her current form which is barely 70+ years old. However, before coming to that point lemme reiterate the obvious.

Group of people are most united when under threat from outside force or are subjugated. If under britishers the concept of "indian identity" didn't prevail and Pakistan came in to being. There is a significant flaw in "Indian national identity" as a stand alone phenomenon. The route or ,to unfairly say, ideology India took "as a state" to exist was secularism. There was no other way it could've had justified her existence. No linguistic, ethnic, religious (even under hinduism the subjugation of other castes), or shared values of populace.

However, in order to keep the upper hand it needed to present herself as a replacement or to put it as an alternate to Pakistan's ideology. But only if it was a contest of spelling bee and the one who spells the most beautiful, articulate words of english dictionary was the winner....

Secularism, democracy, justice are beautiful concepts and more beautiful ideas but only if implemented. Caste system, minorities treatment, bigotry against other ethnic and religious groups doesn't match with what india portrayed herself to be.... a secular tolerant state. Pogroms, lynching, prosecution of minorities, ethnicities didn't co-relate. Even economic prospects which can be another co-factor for co-existence didn't prevail.

A strong prosper Pakistan where all these problems weren't existing is an existential threat to India, so it's imperative for Indian state to create the atmosphere where Pakistan is in bad light. Terrorijm was fanned, a narrative was built, thousands of Pakistanis were killed in this war. An atmosphere was created backed by their infamous media to create the narrative. Pakistan=bad... muslims= teerorijm.

However, it back fired, with local populace. As quaid said, muslims of india will justify themselves for the rest of their existence. When gimmickry of secularism didn't work out with local populace, hindutva was fanned. Frustration from bad governance, corruption, racism, hunger etc was directed and channelized towards religious muslims... Pakistan.

As i said earlier, ideologies prevail over other... if indian nationhood ideology was to be that superior kashmiris, mizoram, manipur, nagaland and plenty others won't be fighting for separation. Bangladesh would've had fallen back to India....

Pakistan is nothing but an ideology.. putting Pakistan in bad light is not putting a state under bad light, but is a war of ideologies and civilizations...

@Mangus Ortus Novem @PakSword @masterchief_mirza @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

Great post brother. You hit all points nicely. It was a pleasure to read your post.

It's a part of the relentless Mujadele between Iman vs Kufr, starting from the dawn of the creation of Jinn and Insan...

Iman and Kufr share Ga'libiyet and Ma'lubiyet in cycles...

As for Pak, it was best understood by the Hakiki Muslims in BD after her creation!! And, it got manifested how the Mujib regime, the very personification of the absolute capitulation under India on a permanent basis, was eliminated!! Alas, it was short lived for Indira Gandhi bagged BD for the second time in 1981, when the Muslim President Zia-ur Rehman, an ex Pak Infantry/Intelligence officer with the citation in '65 war, was assassinated via a RAW counter ops...

Always delighted to read your posts brother. This cycle of darkness and light is one of the central themes of our religion. Maulana Abu'l-Ala Maududi elucidated this view in much details in his writings.

When our civilization began, when the last Prophet saws rose up in Makkah, the darkness which had enveloped mankind gave way to a shining light, the same light which shone from Hazrat Amina RA blessed belly before he was born.

In the exact same way, Pakistan is a culmination of the Muslim experience. It was described by our Quaid e Azam in much the same way and in the poetry of Allama Iqbal, Pakistan is the light shining in the world to lead the wayward Muslims back to our true purpose. That is, to establish the Khalifat ul Ard (first in the figurative sense) on this Earth, to bring justice when there was only injustice and oppression.

Pakistan is an ideology, which we have kept weak and ignored for 72 years, it is time to bring back this amanat of our bozorg. It is time that Quaid e Azam and Allama Iqbal become relevant again to us. It is time we learn from our Urdu/Dari poetry/philosophy/mentality, we study what made our forebearers successful.

The revolution in the minds of Pakistanis has already started, Allah swt has left us with no option and forced us to re-evaluate the life of our nation.

Let us learn and become a nation worthy of our ancestors.

Lets not discuss your genius son in law from eminent school. You looked past the important fact AGAIN. He is 5 years too late and the criminal is your country's Prime Minister.

Let us discuss Pakistani identity and the end game as Mangus elucidated. Ignore the Indians for now.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@peagle
@omegalamba7X79
@PAKISTANFOREVER

I have a petition to present.

Please leave India out of your deliberations to manage discourse among Pakistani posters on PDF. Please leave Indians out. I will undertake never to be heard in your midst.

If you bring in India and Indians, I am honour bound to defend my country. Whatever the consequences. Please understand my compulsions; it does not matter if the Modi-fans run away. I cannot.

Take this as a humble prayer.

 

[peagle]

Reasonable.

There is also a huge volume of analysis of these results that show more or less what I have said. I could, in a week, maybe a fortnight, collate those and put them across for your perusal and better acceptance.



I readily agree that all three parts are true. That in no way invalidates the core argument.

I am happy to recieve whatever you wish to forward to me, this is my first time ever joining a forum, I dont even have a facebook account lol, I just like my privacy. So, please let me know if I need to do anything to accept something from you.

I think, I know where the wires are getting crossed, you are basing your arguements purely from the perspective of BJP, I and I'm certain others here are basing it on Indians at large. Remember BJP as a political force is a recent phenomenon, we or at least I have been living our lives before BJP became popular. We were interacting with Indians (another titbit of information, my father and his Pakistani friends gave out methai when India won the 1984 world cup, imagine that) and learning from books articles, media and so on.

There is a difference that I think you guys do not see it for yourself, but need to recognise. The difference between how Indians view a Pakistani, Pakistanis and Pakistan and how it coes across in our coversations. We do understand you guys have issues of concern, but please remember so do we, we just dont repeat it as much. They are important differentiations if you wish to recognise our point of view.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Lets not discuss your genius son in law from eminent school. You looked past the important fact AGAIN. He is 5 years too late and the criminal is your country's Prime Minister.

NOW I understand.

If he had published earlier, this man would not have been the Prime Minister!

Why didn't you tell us?

I am happy to recieve whatever you wish to forward to me, this is my first time ever joining a forum, I dont even have a facebook account lol, I just like my privacy. So, please let me know if I need to do anything to accept something from you.

I think, I know where the wires are getting crossed, you are basing your arguements purely from the perspective of BJP, I and I'm certain others here are basing it on Indians at large. Remember BJP as a political force is a recent phenomenon, we or at least I have been living our lives before BJP became popular. We were interacting with Indians (another titbit of information, my father and his Pakistani friends gave out methai when India won the 1984 world cup, imagine that) and learning from books articles, media and so on.

There is a difference that I think you guys do not see it for yourself, but need to recognise. The difference between how Indians view a Pakistani, Pakistanis and Pakistan and how it coes across in our coversations. We do understand you guys have issues of concern, but please remember so do we, we just dont repeat it as much. They are important differentiations if you wish to recognise our point of view.

I will reply tomorrow, if I may.

And my offer to show you living examples of Indian and Pakistani in comfortable proximity stands.