Pakistan's Mirage 2000 Saga

[mhacsan]

Dear MOB dont u think this thread should be closed now? as there r no planes for acquisations of mirages cheers

 

[batmannow]

Dear Sir (Batmannow), please don't get upset with me.

The link regarding the Mirages is the Title of this thread and the discussion that has taken place so far in this thread.

I am merely making my arguement in this thread that if there is any possibility of getting these (DAM) Mirages then we should seriuosly pursue it as it has several potential advantages for us. However, if it is a completely dumb arguement then why was this thread opened at all ????

Dil Pakistan;dear sir
link is abslotly wrong which was started , just because some 1 poped up some hearsay, as a news, so its not appropiate to disscus it!

well , eroupeans including france, are in no position to take any independent decicions to provide PAF "(DAM) Mirages " in the preasure from uncle sam, so disscusing it , is absoultly wrong, CHINA has been pakistan's strategic partner in the past , as it is going to remain in the future for sure.
investing or buying EU made machines , would seriously could dammege our exsisting strategic relation ship with china, whcih has a lot to offer us in the very comming future!

 

[Dil Pakistan]

Dear Sir (Batmannow),

I fully agree with you.

I think what you have mentioned in the second paragraph is really the bottom line (not only for PAF but for the whole of Pak Army).

I would very much appreciate if some senior memeber (yourself or other) could kindly comment on my analysis (the detailed comment earlier today). The whole that I have mentioned is really bothering me a lot. I really want to understand if my thinking is on the right track or just paranoid delusion.

 

[zeeshuisb]

well i had a chat with an airforce office in air headquarter yesterday and he said france is offering many things including Rafael too but we are not going for anything like that.
so this thread is a crap

 

[mean_bird]

This thread has lost its credibility (rumor) and needs to be closed.

 

[sky17]

it must be closed and next time the thread without any proven link must be closed.

 

[Muradk]

well i had a chat with an airforce office in air headquarter yesterday and he said france is offering many things including Rafael too but we are not going for anything like that.
so this thread is a crap

France has never said no to us ever yes they have being screwing with the prices typical of them. We are the only country in the world which has given them a platform that there planes are better than other, We have the largest fleet of Mirages in the world.
Problem is not that if we want it or not, Yes why not couple of SQD of Rafael would be an excellent addition to what we have and what we will have. Its the Money we cant buy French Fighters with American money which is given to us against WOT. That is why I have always said that we will never get B/52 or if we get them it will be too late USA has always made the deal and then put a stipulation on it to make the process go slow, So slow that after 20 years we have got what we paid for. If we would have kept 675million $$ in a bank for 20 years we would have had **** loads of money. JAS 39 with a flying fuel tanker is not a bad deal they are really lethal. What I like about them was change of configuration which truly made them a Swing role fighter.

 

[fatman17]

France has never said no to us ever yes they have being screwing with the prices typical of them. We are the only country in the world which has given them a platform that there planes are better than other, We have the largest fleet of Mirages in the world.
Problem is not that if we want it or not, Yes why not couple of SQD of Rafael would be an excellent addition to what we have and what we will have. Its the Money we cant buy French Fighters with American money which is given to us against WOT. That is why I have always said that we will never get B/52 or if we get them it will be too late USA has always made the deal and then put a stipulation on it to make the process go slow, So slow that after 20 years we have got what we paid for. If we would have kept 675million $$ in a bank for 20 years we would have had **** loads of money. JAS 39 with a flying fuel tanker is not a bad deal they are really lethal. What I like about them was change of configuration which truly made them a Swing role fighter.

Sir, with due respect, the gripens will also attract american sanctions!

 

[Luftwaffe]

hey chill guys how about remaining 3 squadrons of F-1 from France and Qatar or Kuwait??

 

[blain2]

Closed until further news of anything concrete materializing with regards to the French aircraft.

 

[M_Saint]

Pakistan will buy whatever version comes close to providing capabilities that PAF wants and needs. May that is the reason that the version it needs was not available. Aircrafts are not something that you can pick up off the shelf. Also the first production goes to PLAAF.

What Pakistan really needs is a "First look, first shoot, first kill" capability. They may not get 100% of what they wish but anything close will be grabbed.

Thanks very much, dear sir but my concern correlates with the saying, 'Nessecity knows no law'. And if your dissemination is true then how ISRO gets ready made delivery from U.S? How does it order JSF ahead of others without perticipating in its developing project? My point is MIA BIBI RAJI TO KYA KOREGA KAZI, also means if buyer and seller are in good marriage then its possible. I think selling and imaginative art need to be stretched in procurement comittee. Another reason why I am pushing for 'Off the shelf' delivery or even Joint-partnership along with NATO type of combined Islamic force is that all indications are there on pointing big guns next on PAK soon. If engine is the issue then why GOP doesn't take Kwaiti or Quatari Mirrages as lease as stop gap measure and upgrade them MK2-5 + standard? Why PAFers were willing to pay $1.5 B for block-50s without AESA and DFRM whilest those Mirages were sitting for sale and could be updated without the cost of innocent Pakistani lives? It is very unfortunate that our strategic brilliance isn't as par with Indians and we aren't efforting to fill that gap, thanks.

 

[pshamim]

Thanks very much, dear sir but my concern correlates with the saying, 'Nessecity knows no law'. And if your dissemination is true then how ISRO gets ready made delivery from U.S? How does it order JSF ahead of others without perticipating in its developing project? My point is MIA BIBI RAJI TO KYA KOREGA KAZI, also means if buyer and seller are in good marriage then its possible. I think selling and imaginative art need to be stretched in procurement comittee. Another reason why I am pushing for 'Off the shelf' delivery or even Joint-partnership along with NATO type of combined Islamic force is that all indications are there on pointing big guns next on PAK soon. If engine is the issue then why GOP doesn't take Kwaiti or Quatari Mirrages as lease as stop gap measure and upgrade them MK2-5 + standard? Why PAFers were willing to pay $1.5 B for block-50s without AESA and DFRM whilest those Mirages were sitting for sale and could be updated without the cost of innocent Pakistani lives? It is very unfortunate that our strategic brilliance isn't as par with Indians and we aren't efforting to fill that gap, thanks.

Bhai! will you pay $90 million for a 12 year old airframe with 12 year old engines and 12 year old capabilities. Mirage-2000 is a wonderful aircraft but does it have AESA or DRFM which F-16 Block-50/52 will not have either. What F-16s come with are the latest and uptodated equipment and a brand new airframe at a cheaper price.

Your post indicates that you believe that Mirages will come with AESA and DRFM. Is that true. Do you feel spending that kind of money on an old aircraft is a "strategic brilliance" I personally like the aircraft but not at that price.

I also prefer PAF to diversify and start distancing away from US. But F-16s are great machines. One more thing I will like to stress is the man-machine relationship. By simply acquiring a new aircraft does not mean that it will provide you 100% of its potential capabilities. PAF pilots have been flying them for last 26 years and know every little secret and every trick to get the best out of it. Even if India opts to buy them, it will take them years before they can master it. But by then world would have moved ahead of them.

No one has offered JSF to India ahead of JSF partners. It is only if India acquires F-16 first and then buy JSF in future.

That is all Lockheed talk. I ought to know. I was part of the Business Development team at General Dynamics before it was acquired by Lockheed Martin.

Please reconsider the reasons for why PAF did not go for Qatari and UAE Mirages. I am sure Pakistan will buy these Mirages in a heartbeat if price is right and they could form Pakistan Navy/Pakistan Air Force Fighter squadrons. I consider them to more potent as ground support or Naval support roles.

 

[Zob]

sir i would like to add something else as well u can't buy mirages until and unless the French approve the sales just like i read someone saying why not buy some F16s from TURKEY....secondly sir i believe india has cash....upfront cash and that makes suppliers of equipment lean towards them...the IRONIC THING IS THE MONEY IS USED FOR MORE R&D and then conutires like INDIA pay more to buy the newer technology so it is a good chain for suppliers.....so bascially i might be going out on a limb here but pakistan is better off like our ex CAS said that sanctions r a blessing in disguise...we got to do our own R&D and came up with a joint venture of JF-17 which is a small step for PAF inshallah in 50 years we would have evolved into a lean mean fighter producing country.

but sir i have a question why are none of the charactersitics of the mirage fighter that pakistan has being copied by the chinese not even the engines are being copied from russian desgins

 

[Munir]

but sir i have a question why are none of the charactersitics of the mirage fighter that pakistan has being copied by the chinese not even the engines are being copied from russian desgins

The Mirage is an design handy for high, fast and lots of load... The Mirage 3/5 are outdated but even MK2 has its time... Now we are moving towards delta's with canards... Optimizing agility with high load and high speed... We will move to that with FC20.

About PAF and copying Mirages. PAF is a defensive force. It needs low flying, highly agile dogfighters. And surely a lower landing speed. Planes like F16 and JF17 are suited for that. The delta is much easier to produce (simple FBW, few controls, simple calculations compared to normal plane) but it is less handy in PAF scenario. IT would be nice for long range interceptions (sea) but besides that it is no longer needed. PAF has weapons like Ra'ad that can handle pretty much Mirage could do. No need to build a delta.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hello Zob,

French never had an issue with pakistan buying the used mirage 2k---secondly---mirage 2k qatari or uae are superior to anything that the PAF has or will have for the next 2 plus years---in any shape or form.

PAF got into the denial mode for its capabilities since the early 90's and then went into the slumber mode after the Musharraf handshake.

Niether is the PAF prepared to fight its tomorrow battles today---nor do most of the pakistani posters understand the significance of lack of quality equipment to confront the enemy today. It is all about what we willl have two years from now.

Here is a link what the australian aiforce fears about the flankers---it is an old article---but still very valid. If you cannot connect to the web-site---then please go the the missile section and look up a new thread started by MaximMarz about information needed on missiles adder, archer etc etc.


http://www.ausairpower.net/air-superiority-1.html