IAF Mirage 2000 upgrade: Scam of Biblical Proportions

[Abingdonboy]

The Article is a fun read.. but then again.. it also testifies that as a pilots airplane..the M2K is simply easier to employ more effectively. That being said, with fly-by-wire and more ergonomics.. the Mig-35 is a superb aircraft... the upgraded M2K might be slightly better at it job than the 29UPG... this may have to do again with ergonomics and flight controls that demand more pilot attention than anything else.

Indeed, the M2K has been adored by all those who flew it and hence it is so well-liked within the IAF.


Wrt the -29UPG vs the M2K-5 MK.2, I don't know really- it is certainly a close fight. It's a case of swings and roundabouts but no doubt in their upgraded forms both are capable beasts.

 

[sancho]

Btw don't you guys know before the debate that retirement phase of mirage 2000 started during 2006.
Even rich Arabs didn't upgrade and want to sell their mirage for peanuts.

It

It's called high cost of maintenance and service.
Also these fighter were offered to Pakistan who very much rejected

Both nonsene, the UAE even recently further upgraded their M2Ks, with additional capabilities and have no intention to sell them, unless they get a better offer and that's what happend! The French came to them and made an offer for Rafale and not the other way around, the UAE only smartly play the game now, to get more benefits out of the French.
Also Pakistan would never had denied the M2K-9s if finance and EUM wouldn't be an issue, but that's another story.

The fact is, the M2K remains to be a highly capabe interceptor and for many countries also an excellent strike plattform, which btw is the reason why the UAE would never sell them, unless they get another plattform to use the Black Shaheen missiles, but the US won't allow the integration, which leaves only Rafale, or the EF.

 

[sancho]

Extending the life and opting for newer jet like MIG-35 or Grippen would have been great for future.

M2K upgrades are indeed damn costly.Upgrade of jags was like replacing the stock music system with a newer one in a maruti 800. Even after the upgrades, they can never be a honda brio or a swift.

The reason they say is IAF's affinity for them, not an excuse for such a costly expenditure for public.

True in case of the jags, way off about the M2K upgrade. The reason why they insist on not only a basic upgrade, but a comprehensive one (keep in mind that Israeli companies offered at least radar and avionics at lower costs and even Dassault stated that IAF insisted on more than they normally propose for upgrades) clearly shows the importance that the M2K has in IAF's strategies and in this case most likely the nuklear strike role.
It should be a nobrainer that IAF wants a reliable, proven and capable plattform for this role, that they have trained and gained experience and tactics in the last decades and not a paperplane with no future potential, or an light class fighter (Gripen E/F will be available only by 2018) with a lot of strings attached.
Until Rafale, but more likely even FGFA and AURA arrives, the M2K is the most proven and reliable fighter in the IAF fleet and capability wise will only get more capable as they already are (multi role and with IFR capability since decades, not only with the current uprade like the Migs). With MICA and Topsight it will be even better in close combat than the Migs with the R73, besides that they now have BVR capability and carry 6 x AAMs in any role (all of them BVR capable), we already have heared that SPICE 2000 will be added, which means the M2K-5 will be IAFs first choice for stand off strikes (hopefully in a package with SPICE 250s too) and if we can get Scalp cruise missiles, it offers the best strike package in IAF, which only the MKI and Rafale could top.
But we did wasted time and money by let HAL do the upgrade, instead of letting Dassault do it, only because we feel the need to do anything at home now. The plain fact that HAL needs to construct a new facility for the upgrade alone should had been a point to back out of the idea.
Another point is, that the cost comparison with the Mig upgrade is always flawed, since only the $900 million for the base upgrade costs are quoted. Not included are the Indian and western (including several French) parts, that we have to add to the Russian fighters, because they don't have comparable techs, just like the fact that we had to pay another $250 millions for new engines for the Migs, because they engine life of the Russian engines is far lower than western once. When you add all the cost for new capabilities of the Migs, you roughly get around $30 millions per Mig upgrade too, so does it mean we should have paid $46 million for new Mig 29Ks too, instead of upgrading the older Migs? Obviously not, the fact is, these fighters are meant to remain in service for up to 40 years if they are capable enough, for the Migs and the M2Ks that is the case, for the Jags it is not and for the Mig 21s and 27s we had to extend the service to such lenghts as sad as it is.

 

[Bang Galore]

The IAF are not idiots, if it was cheaper to get new platforms, they would do so - after all, who wouldn't like to fly spanking new jets? They know much better than us, that getting a new platform would mean giving up all the costs that have been sunk into the mirage platform so far, for setting up infra and training, and also spending all that on the new platform.

It was not that the IAF was unanimous in their backing for the M2k idea. As reported, there were many who were opposed to this upgrade (almost evenly split) & precisely for the reasons quoted here - too expensive, not worth it, not enough life to justify it, air frame etc... Many did opine that new a/c's would be better. This is not to suggest that there necessarily is a scam but to point out that the arguments exist for the opposing argument.

 

[cirr]

French perfume，it sure smells good。

 

[duhastmish]

Both nonsene, the UAE even recently further upgraded their M2Ks, with additional capabilities and have no intention to sell them, unless they get a better offer and that's what happend! The French came to them and made an offer for Rafale and not the other way around, the UAE only smartly play the game now, to get more benefits out of the French.
Also Pakistan would never had denied the M2K-9s if finance and EUM wouldn't be an issue, but that's another story.

The fact is, the M2K remains to be a highly capabe interceptor and for many countries also an excellent strike plattform, which btw is the reason why the UAE would never sell them, unless they get another plattform to use the Black Shaheen missiles, but the US won't allow the integration, which leaves only Rafale, or the EF.

Dear m2k are up for sale to any vendor. More over Arabs can splurge a little money but even they played smartly as u said that will make indian idiots or dumb. Arabs have a good offer of American and European fighters to run saheeen. Although unlike India they don't have big airforce enemy surrounding them

 

[janon]

It was not that the IAF was unanimous in their backing for the M2k idea. As reported, there were many who were opposed to this upgrade (almost evenly split) & precisely for the reasons quoted here - too expensive, not worth it, not enough life to justify it, air frame etc... Many did opine that new a/c's would be better. This is not to suggest that there necessarily is a scam but to point out that the arguments exist for the opposing argument.

Yes, I am aware that there were arguments and counter arguments. But finally the opinion that they should be upgraded prevailed. I am not even trying to justify the upgrade, but merely pointing out to the OP that it is not as simple as the flyaway cost of new platforms - there are many other factors to be taken into account.

 

[he-man]

Yes, I am aware that there were arguments and counter arguments. But finally the opinion that they should be upgraded prevailed. I am not even trying to justify the upgrade, but merely pointing out to the OP that it is not as simple as the flyaway cost of new platforms - there are many other factors to be taken into account.

its fine yaar...........i am happy we discussed it 

There's no doubt the M2K is loved by the IAF, if things had gone a little differently they'd have got 126-200 more back in the early 2000s.

thank god it didn't happen

that would be a disaster in this day and age

 

[he-man]

now pls consider this

"even if the Mirage 2000H/THs are to receive a brand-new open-architecture mission/cockpit avionics suite and see their airframes being refurbished and re-lifed to stay in airworthy condition for the next 20 years, they still will not be able to remain flyable till 2038 (due to the 35-year guaranteed service-life warranty issued by Dassault Aviation) simply because the existing SNECMA Moteurs-built M53P2 turbofans would have reached the end of their certified total technical service lives (TTSL) by 2029."

 

[Harisudan]

He man,

just prove ur point man...........

where is mirage 2000 better than mig-29 k

just name one parameter...............except a to g role where it is.

anything else??

no

so why does upgrade cost the price of a new mig-29k??its a simple question 


i really doubt it

airframe is same and so are engines

mirages wee sourced between 1985 and 88

now tell me how is it possible that aircraft will have life of 50 years even after upgrades??

its impossible 
@janon
do u know the ew suite of upgraded mirage 2000 or jammers??
i know only of rdy-2 radar and mig-29k zhuk me is better than it

i am interested in a discussion but pls give objective analysis of whats in upgraded mirage 2000??[/quote

He- Man,
Your arguments are floppy..M2K is better than Mig-29K in one area, i.e Air to ground role(According to your statement)..Heck yea, that's what their main purpose is..That's what the IAF expect them to do..IAF doesn't expect M2K to intercept and engage in a dog fight with an Intruder..It just wants Mirage 2000 to attack valuable ground targets such as radar stations Air defence batteries, command centres etc..In the process of bombing, limited air to air ability is given to survive and shoot down if at all any foe is locked on in its vicinity.. That's it...
Comparing Mig29K to M2K is like comparing Apples and Oranges..MIG 29k is specifically given the role of Air dominance, That's it..M2k after upgradation to 2000-5 Mk2 standards, will become the best multirole aircraft in the region next only to rafale, in the near future..
Putting it in simple words, M2K can Survive and air warfare and also bomb the vital installations, but Mig 29 can't...Hence the Upgradation is justified...Case closed..

 

[KalaGhoda]

in hindsight, those uae m2ks were a good deal, no ? about 60 of them, in top condition, all it needed was a weapons package to suit iaf.

 

[Talha Mateen]

So is India looking to buy some more M-2000s like from Greece or France or even Taiwan which might be buying Rafale too, to replace 150+ F-16s and 70 M-2000s.

 

[mehboobkz]

So is India looking to buy some more M-2000s like from Greece or France or even Taiwan which might be buying Rafale too, to replace 150+ F-16s and 70 M-2000s.

Do you know what have you written?

That the Taj mahal is in Islamabad...Lol

 

[Talha Mateen]

Do you know what have you written?

That the Taj mahal is in Islamabad...Lol

Why not?

 

[KalaGhoda]

Do you know what have you written?

He meant Taiwan. Taiwan F-16s.