IAF Mirage 2000 upgrade: Scam of Biblical Proportions

[he-man]

PAF planes have one of the most advance jammers pods, and same jammer version is inbuilt in new ones. PAF planes new and old are customized as per PAF requirements, one of which was to get capability to handle all sorts of EW environment, they are upgraded to handle MKI and MMRCA only problem is that they are low on numbers. US has offered better version but PAF did not had funds to procure and handle such tech.

there are rumors that even now some US companies are pushing for radar upgrade to AESA standard for PAF F-16s which they offer in the market.

actually the new mig-29 upg and k have very superior equipment

in radar too zhuk me is a bit better than apg-66v9

but yes all in all a comparable deal but the thing to note is india has option to upgrade the mig-29 to have aesas if it feels like in future. 

Btw don't you guys know before the debate that retirement phase of mirage 2000 started during 2006.
Even rich Arabs didn't upgrade and want to sell their mirage for peanuts.

this upgrade smells of bribe and kickbacks

why didn't they go for new platform??

 

[Basel]

Btw don't you guys know before the debate that retirement phase of mirage 2000 started during 2006.
Even rich Arabs didn't upgrade and want to sell their mirage for peanuts.

There were news that UAE want to sell its Mirage 2009 which are way advance than old Mirage 2000H, there must be some reason for that.

 

[duhastmish]

It

There were news that UAE want to sell its Mirage 2009 which are way advance than old Mirage 2000H, there must be some reason for that.

It's called high cost of maintenance and service.
Also these fighter were offered to Pakistan who very much rejected

 

[he-man]

There were news that UAE want to sell its Mirage 2009 which are way advance than old Mirage 2000H, there must be some reason for that.

its the kickbacks man what else

just like ur military is taking money to sanction drone strikes,,,our officials are also involved in shady deals

 

[Basel]

why your military establishment fall prey to kickbacks? your economy is good and your govt is ready to pour money in armed forces.

 

[he-man]

why your military establishment fall prey to kickbacks? your economy is good and your govt is ready to pour money in armed forces.

they want personal wealth
ur military officials control lot of businesses so they don't need much kickbacks i think

our military is under civilian rule so they need a new source of income via these kickbacks

 

[Basel]

It's called high cost of maintenance and service.
Also these fighter were offered to Pakistan who very much rejected

PAF don't want mirages any more, don't know the reason, may be they are less maneuverable in WVR combat and IAF is fielding high maneuverable planes coupled with off bore attack capable missiles and HMCS which are more than current fleet of F-16s PAF field.

 

[he-man]

PAF don't want mirages any more, don't know the reason, may be they are less maneuverable in WVR combat and IAF is fielding high maneuverable planes coupled with off bore attack capable missiles and HMCS which are more than current fleet of F-16s PAF field.

in my opinion in a few upgrades even jf-17 will be better tan an old platform like mirage 2000

 

[duhastmish]

Be

why your military establishment fall prey to kickbacks? your economy is good and your govt is ready to pour money in armed forces.

cause of corruption and greed. And mainly because IAF don't look at its requirement from nation's point of view. Also it takes so much time to decide that by the time it's decision it's already obsolete and not worthy

 

[Water Car Engineer]

MIG 29s will get ELT-568 AESA-based jamming system, Phazatron Zhuk-M radar, E, extended fuel capacity/range, new avionics kit, etc.

Those are only the few things I know about that upgrade. Anyone wanna tell us about the Mirage ones?

 

[Abingdonboy]

why were these jets not upgraded at mid life??any answer

Mid-life would have been,what, in late 90s/early 2000s? Or about the period where India had literally no money for military procurements/upgrades, also known as the "lost decade".

When India eventually got the money it started looking to replace/upgrade its inventory but the M2K upgrade was not a high priority understandably. 

and




now u have nothing to counter??

my points are well founded

why didn't we get a new platform looking at future??

Are my points not well-founded? You've got literally nothing to counter my points with have you?

You're advocating spending MORE on machines that have arguably less utility to the IAF and will cost the IAF significantly MORE over their life spans. What kind of logic is this? 

its the kickbacks man what else

just like ur military is taking money to sanction drone strikes,,,our officials are also involved in shady deals

What kind of BS is this? Just because a decision is made that you,personally, don't agree with you use the scam/kickback word?? 

in my opinion in a few upgrades even jf-17 will be better tan an old platform like mirage 2000

Well now you've really lost any credibility you might have had with me. JF-17s will be more capable than M2K-5 MK.2s will they?? Are you high or something?

 

[Abingdonboy]

The better option was

1)mig-35
2)mig-29 upg



if everyone starts justifying these things like u then yes we are actually doomed

reasons??

1)upgradation of a 30 year old platform for 40 million
2)trying to buy a 4.5 gen jet for more than 120 million each
3)simultaneously trying to develop a 5 th generation fighter
4)simultaneously working on a 4 th gen fighter


all this when growth rate is 4.5 percent

You've still not actually addressed @janon and my comments- at all.


The simple fact is you CANNOT get ANY new 4.5+ gen fighter that will be as capable as the IAF Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s for less than $40 mill apiece- it simply can't be done.


Yes yes, the MIG-35 looks like a good machine but let's not forget one of the most professional and comprehensive selection programs in recent times (MMRCA) found the MIG-35 technically lacking and not up to scratch. So basically you want to subvert the entire selection process and go for the MIG-35 outright despite it failing to match up to the IAF's standards? I think Dassualt, Lockhead Martin, Boeing and co. would have something to say on this matter. Basically they'd have every right to seek back their costs for the MMRCA trails and participation in the MMRCA bid. You'd make India look a joke on the world stage and make arms companies reluctant to take part in any future deals in India pretty much damaging India's national security no end.


Then there's the fact the MIG-35 isn't even in service to date and if orders were made tomorrow don't expect any deliveries before 2018/19- whereas the M2Ks will all be upgraded by 2017.


Then there's the life cycle costs that are going to hurt and i mean HURT. How many times do I have to reiterate this? Russian products cost 4-5 times the value their intial unit costs to maintain over their life spans. Western products cost only 2-3 times their unit costs.


Then there's the fact that the -35s are twin engined so every every flight hour is going to cost significantly more.


Then there are the costs to train ground crews and pilots, set up logistics etc etc


What you're saying just isn't viable if you're looking at this from a cost POV- in any shape or form.



The M2K upgrade covers the basics, keeps a war-proven platform the IAF is very happy and comfortable with, that is easy to maintain and relatively cheap to operate around a few more years to halt declining IAF SQD levels whilst the IAF undergoes a period of change and expansion that it has not sen before in its history. The very last thing you want to do is throw in yet another new platform into the mix and an unproven platform at that.



It is a very logical thing the IAF has done, when you look at it objectively. Good call IAF brass! 
Oh and your comment about India's growth rate is entirely moot as this is a very, VERY short term issue. Within the next 3-4 years India will be back to 6-8%+ growth.

 

[SQ8]

Let me put this in another context from the other side of the border on grapevines and discussions. When the initial batches of PAF pilots were training in the USA on the F-16s.. their instructors were asked on certain tactical ideas. These instructors expected the PAF pilots to ask about the Mig-29.. however, to their(USAF instructors) surprise.. the PAF pilots were not interested in the Mig-29 and instead wanted ideas on how to fight the Mirage-2000. years later, when PAF and IAF pilots interact from time to time.. the only fighter is recalled with affection by senior IAF pilots is the M2K.
take them as true or false.. but in my view it tells a whole story right there

 

[Abingdonboy]

Let me put this in another context from the other side of the border on grapevines and discussions. When the initial batches of PAF pilots were training in the USA on the F-16s.. their instructors were asked on certain tactical ideas. These instructors expected the PAF pilots to ask about the Mig-29.. however, to their(USAF instructors) surprise.. the PAF pilots were not interested in the Mig-29 and instead wanted ideas on how to fight the Mirage-2000. years later, when PAF and IAF pilots interact from time to time.. the only fighter is recalled with affection by senior IAF pilots is the M2K.
take them as true or false.. but in my view it tells a whole story right there

There's no doubt the M2K is loved by the IAF, if things had gone a little differently they'd have got 126-200 more back in the early 2000s.

 

[SQ8]

There's no doubt the M2K is loved by the IAF, if things had gone a little differently they'd have got 126-200 more back in the early 2000s.

The Article is a fun read.. but then again.. it also testifies that as a pilots airplane..the M2K is simply easier to employ more effectively. That being said, with fly-by-wire and more ergonomics.. the Mig-35 is a superb aircraft... the upgraded M2K might be slightly better at it job than the 29UPG... this may have to do again with ergonomics and flight controls that demand more pilot attention than anything else.