Pakistan wants combat copters

[Aslan]

the problem is i am fatman so how can i give a non-fatman answer?

let me ask you a question back?

would US and NATO as a close ally of Pakistan, a "frontline country in the GWOT" as RescueRanger puts it, agree to invite Pak forces in fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan and rooting out once and for all this scourge from the face of the Earth?

Sir ji shall I add one more query to your question, the main point.

Apart from US and NATO how comfortable will the GOI themselves be if we are to go into Afghanistan with our forces.

 

[vsdoc]

And to you it may seem, US is fighting Pakistan also, in reality they are fighting the Afghan themselves only, if Pakistan gets into the game, do remember what happened to the Soviets.

We on the other hand are trying to safe guard our own interests, which unfortunately the US is not doing, and letting external players meddle in Pakistan by using the land of Afghanistan, that is where the main disagreement is. If US hears us out, we will heart them out too, but more then friendship of US, Pakistan has its own interests more dear.

And wiping out Taliban is out of the question till the border is not squeezed and those who run from here and intercepted there, to the contrary, when we launch operations, the US forces empty their posts on the border, which is already less then hundred compared to the 800+ which we are manning. They open up the border, empty their bases and the Taliban running away from this side are having a wonderful time over there and rearming and regrouping.

So till this double game is played out by US, we will also do our game and safe our interests, as US will go one day, and we will have to then face these people, so better we keep them as friends.

And also don't let the external players stuck their feet forever and be a nuisance for us later on.

Seems to me that you guys and the US are not seeing eye to eye off late brother. A very shaky "alliance" I must say.

First things first. Please for God's sake do not even try to take even some of the credit for the USSR pulling out man. The whole world knows why it happened and Pakistan does not feature in the top 10 reasons. You've seen old Raj days hunting fotos? Someone kills the lion. And 20 other guys one by one hold a hunting rifle, one leg on the carcass, and get their foto taken.

And where are the circumstances even similar brother. The USSR had the US to deal with. If for some reason you guys totally lose it and do go against the US, do you think today Russia (or your fair weather capitalist friend China) would follow suit?

Remember one thing Taimi. In any relationship, be it at home, or at work, in politics, or on the battlefield. One does not bite the hand that feeds you. So please keep aside the testosterone fueled bravado alluding to US's plight were Pakistan to turn on them!

The fact is pakistan is very much "in the game" .... but by proxy, as is their style elsewhere too. The problem with proxies however is that 20 years from now Taimi Jr. will not be able to brag to Doc Jr. about how his country brought about the downfall of a superpower!

Secondly, you example about the US being around for 10 odd years yet not even "holding" 20% of Afghan territory is flawed I feel. But here you are free to correct me as you have a better grasp on matters military. It is my opinion that the US operations and objectives and operational realities in Afghanistan are very different from yours in Pakistan. You are trying to recover and hold territory ..... your own territory. While the US is not interested in holding territory. Not interested in staying on once their objectives are met and order is passed on to the hands of the local forces and governement. Their objective is simple. To break the back of the forces that attacked their country. Territorial objectives are only important in terms of operational objectives. Nothing more, nothing less.

Lastly, your sad tale of no help from the US in closing the gates when you have your bad guys on the run. Taimi bhai, do you not see that their bad guys have confortable and protected haven in your country, from where they can choose to hit and run and hide? Bhai taali to do haath se bajti hai (for S2 and other "allies" here - "one can only clap with two hands!" )

Cheers, Doc

 

[fatman17]

Seems to me that you guys and the US are not seeing eye to eye off late brother. A very shaky "alliance" I must say.

always was this way - 65-sanctioned, 71-sanctioned,92-sanctioned,98-sanctioned - but they keep coming back and we welcome them with open arms!

 

[Aslan]

Seems to me that you guys and the US are not seeing eye to eye off late brother. A very shaky "alliance" I must say.

First things first. Please for God's sake do not even try to take even some of the credit for the USSR pulling out man. The whole world knows why it happened and Pakistan does not feature in the top 10 reasons. You've seen old Raj days hunting fotos? Someone kills the lion. And 20 other guys one by one hold a hunting rifle, one leg on the carcass, and get their foto taken.

And where are the circumstances even similar brother. The USSR had the US to deal with. If for some reason you guys totally lose it and do go against the US, do you think today Russia (or your fair weather capitalist friend China) would follow suit?

Remember one thing Taimi. In any relationship, be it at home, or at work, in politics, or on the battlefield. One does not bite the hand that feeds you. So please keep aside the testosterone fueled bravado alluding to US's plight were Pakistan to turn on them!

Lastly, your sad tale of no help from the US in closing the gates when you have your bad guys on the run. Taimi bhai, do you not see that their bad guys have confortable and protected haven in your country, from where they can choose to hit and run and hide? Bhai taali to do haath se bajti hai (for S2 - one can only clap with two hands! )

Cheers, Doc

So doc let me get this straight, you are saying that the US was the reason that the USSR is history. And Pakistan has nothing to do with it.

What about the logistics on the ground, I guess it dont matter eh.
What about the man power, ah who cares. Naam hi kafi hai (in this case the US)

• When I say logistics, it includes;
• Spies
• Supplies
• The continuous flow of Supplies into different areas
• Keeping the supply lines open
• Arming the men
• Training
• And a variety of other issues.
• Oh yes and the role that our AF played in keeping the Soviets at bay.

But who cares, you have to sleep at night dont you, and the only thing that gets you a good night sleep is your believe is that the US defeated the USSR all on its own and nothing else matters. regardless of the ground realities.

And nice analogy when you say about the dead lion and 20 guys in the photo, well the difference is that it is india that is lining up to get the photo taken and to make its self look like a hero in Afghanistan.
Take care

 

[vsdoc]

Seems to me that you guys and the US are not seeing eye to eye off late brother. A very shaky "alliance" I must say.

always was this way - 65-sanctioned, 71-sanctioned,92-sanctioned,98-sanctioned - but they keep coming back and we welcome them with open arms!

And we all know its out of the goodness of your hearts and your inherent forgiving nature towards old friends!

Cheers, Doc

 

[vsdoc]

So doc let me get this straight, you are saying that the US was the reason that the USSR is history. And Pakistan has nothing to do with it.

What about the logistics on the ground, I guess it dont matter eh.
What about the man power, ah who cares. Naam hi kafi hai (in this case the US)

• When I say logistics, it includes;
• Spies
• Supplies
• The continuous flow of Supplies into different areas
• Keeping the supply lines open
• Arming the men
• Training
• And a variety of other issues.
• Oh yes and the role that our AF played in keeping the Soviets at bay.

But who cares, you have to sleep at night dont you, and the only thing that gets you a good night sleep is your believe is that the US defeated the USSR all on its own and nothing else matters. regardless of the ground realities.

And nice analogy when you say about the dead lion and 20 guys in the photo, well the difference is that it is india that is lining up to get the photo taken and to make its self look like a hero in Afghanistan.
Take care

That's more like it Khalid.

So you played the role of a friendly conduit and staging area for hire. Very different to allusions of military greatness by Taimi.

In industry, we call specialised agencies like this P&F agents!

Hope that helps you sleep better.

Cheers, Doc

 

[fatman17]

And we all know its out of the goodness of your hearts and your inherent forgiving nature towards old friends!

Cheers, Doc

absolutely - let bygones be bygones I say. lets look forward and not backwards - history is history, no one can change that.

 

[farhan_9909]

USA::

we need about 1000 aim 120 more.
we will buy helicopters frm other nations

 

[Aslan]

That's more like it Khalid.

So you played the role of a friendly conduit and staging area for hire. Very different to allusions of military greatness by Taimi.

In industry, we call specialised agencies like this P&F agents!

Hope that helps you sleep better.

Cheers, Doc

Funny way to twist the reality, call it by what ever fancy name you want to doc but the reality is that you cant change the facts. You want to name us the P&F agents, and call us a friendly conduit and staging area provider. Nice, doc I wish wars were fought in this comfort zone of yours and it would have been as convenient as the way you want us to believe. But as I said contrary to your believes, things are different on the ground. You know when 'Abdul Rahman Al Ghafiqi went to war against the franks under Charlemagne he made 2 mistakes, not securing the camp and fighting the franks from a disadvantageous position. The franks had an upper hand as they were fighting from a higher ground. The reason that I gave that war as an example is that every thing in the war matters, and any small issue can cause a disaster. So your analogy that Pakistan had nothing to do with the defeat of the USSR is nothing but bogus and created for the purpose of inner satisfaction of ones own self.

 

[Mani2020]

VSDOC

From last 4 pages you are continuously asking same question in one or another way and you are getting same answers.Are u not still done with it?

Why few choppers (that by the way are on paper uptil now,no conformity of their induction) are irritating you so much instead of your so called military might that you are digging different issues and putting them in one post

Thats the mentality which lead us to keep indulge in wars than you people say why there is no peace?

After so much of our efforts you guys are not ready to accept it and you converted the whole damn thread of choppers into a WOT.

If you can digest it than good for you otherwise dont try to gulp something that you cant bear..

 

[MJaa]

Any one of the AH-1W/Z and AH-64 D will be a great addition in capability of Pakistan army in fight against terror

But at the same time small low cost option like AH-6 and MD-530 Little Bird will be great to supplement the expensive and much more capable AH-1W/Z and AH-64 D

UH-60 Black Hawk and CH-47 D Chinook can help Pakistan army’s air assault and rescue operation big time in these hilly terrain where only air assault units can achieve the elements of surprise and negate the ambush form unfriendly forces. Paikstan should insist on these assets as they are far more effective then few second hand Mi-17 that US have provided

I just hope that PA will consider some Mine Protected Vehicles with additional protection against RPG-7 rounds and ballistic protection against 7.62x39mm ammunition to make sure this time Pakistan Army dont suffer great losses this time from militants through ambush attacks.


Mine Protected Vehicles fitted with a remote-controlled turret can ensure that no losses will be suffered by the PA against Talibans

Even Indians have understood the importance of such vehicles and have developed three types of them; I don’t understand why HIT is not doing the same.

 

[sparklingway]

There seems to be at least some support among the higher ups in the US as can be seen from McCain's comments.

What I am wondering is that even if they agree to giving us some copters, it'll take some time for us to get them, probably even an year before we get the first one. Will they be useful by then? I mean hopefully we will have sent the Taliban to the grave by then and they'll be useful in keeping the situation under control but the primary use would have died out a bit.

Secondly, this will change the Army Aviation almost entirely. The whole ballgame will be changed and new squadrons will be raised besides up gradation of existing facilities. If they are serious about the proposal to acquire such copters, does anybody know about the Aviation's preparations on it or is it just a wild request?

 

[Mani2020]

There seems to be at least some support among the higher ups in the US as can be seen from McCain's comments.

What I am wondering is that even if they agree to giving us some copters, it'll take some time for us to get them, probably even an year before we get the first one. Will they be useful by then? I mean hopefully we will have sent the Taliban to the grave by then and they'll be useful in keeping the situation under control but the primary use would have died out a bit.

Secondly, this will change the Army Aviation almost entirely. The whole ballgame will be changed and new squadrons will be raised besides up gradation of existing facilities. If they are serious about the proposal to acquire such copters, does anybody know about the Aviation's preparations on it or is it just a wild request?

Most probably these copters will be ex-US army or airforce ones untill and unless we are fully paying for them, if they will be ex ones it will not take much time to deliver after they agreed to provide them


Its just a wish list uptill now so dun think so there will be any preparation about that as uptill now this list is not been accepted by US. Coz as far as i remember there were also many rumors regarding PA getting Apaches back in 2004 but nothing happened and same rumors appeared in 2009 as well but no result.So untill and unless this list is not agreed upon by US i dont see any preparation

 

[Awesome]

It will be a much more sensible and specific to this war type of purchase than the F-16s.

Pakistan's focus should be to obtain UCAVs and Combat choppers. However I'm concerned about our government pursuing such a big list from the US.

 

[welcome]

i think pakistan has already good combat copters.....