Pakistan wants combat copters

[Sialkoti]

I fully agree with Muse's assessment that Pakistan needs to learn from experience- particularly the painful experiences of the past. In times of need, nations will do what is required for themselves. In the event of a problem, Pakistan cannot rely on the US or any nation for her defense needs. And yes Muse, the nation shouldn't be overly reliant on weapons from one supplier. The US is the world's only superpower and they will necessarily do what is in their best interests. Pakistan must also do what is in its best interests. Whether we like it or not, the best weapons systems are made in the US- this includes helicopters. The Chinese are nowhere near the US manufactures in terms of technology. As for the Europeans, even the Germans refused delivery of the the attack helicopter some here have championed. As for South Africa and Russia, they too are not in the same league. At the end of the day, our pilots need to get the best equipment to get the job done which is why I still support the acquisition of the updated Apaches. That being said, we shold be prepared for a degree of self sufficiency in maintaining these systems. Getting back to the A 10 C I would point out that the A 10 C Warthog is in no means a substitute for the F 16. They are designed for radically different roles. However, if your goal is ground support on the battlefield, no air system can match the A 10 C. Despite being a 25 year old + platform, it is still used in Afghanistan and was used in Iraq with devestaing success. The new A 10 C is a superb plane which would be a real asset for the PAF for ground support operations.

 

[Sialkoti]

One more point, our folks at the top should be putting in a word on the acquisition of the JSF / F 35. This will be inducted shortly into many developing nations froces and represents a great leap in technology. As these things take time, Pakistan should try to obtain assurances for a squadron of these fighters for future use. The F 16 is due to be phased out in the necxt decade for a great number of squadrons- albeit the older variants.

 

[Donatello]

One more point, our folks at the top should be putting in a word on the acquisition of the JSF / F 35. This will be inducted shortly into many developing nations froces and represents a great leap in technology. As these things take time, Pakistan should try to obtain assurances for a squadron of these fighters for future use. The F 16 is due to be phased out in the necxt decade for a great number of squadrons- albeit the older variants.

I would disagree.

PAF is spending a lot of time and money on MLUs for old f-16s. They won't be ready by 2014 meaning they will have to serve well into 2024. That's the whole point of purchasing MLU STAR kits.
Also, next decade means until 2020......which as i said is too near to retire F-16s for PAF.

Lastly, as much as PAF would love to have F-35, the jet has proven nothing as of yet. Just tests and delays and component failures. Lastly, the price is too high and if India gets it, no point. Rather spend money on Electronic equipment that can work out low RCS, work with Turkey or China. F-35 ain't getting into export market anytime soon and we have funds for J-10 and JF-17 only at the moment.

We need a naval strike aircraft, and you never know what they might come up with. Next 4 years are crucial for PAF.

 

[Sialkoti]

I understand your concerns about the F 35 but I would hate to see the PAF lag behind in technology. The F 16 was developed as early as 1980. It's now 2010 and we as a nation still have a unabashed love for the F 16 but as all systems, it will become obsolete and dated. That's my only concern. You are right to point out that the next few years is critical and it would be great if the Chinese can produce somethingcomparable if not better but I still feel that the Chinese are one generation behind the West in avionics. I understand that a great deal of the F 35 may in fact be hype but if it really represents a leap in technology (the F 22 and the F 35) , we really can't afford to sit idle. I hope our air brass is keeping tabs on what's real and what's hype. I do not have a background in Air Force aviation but I follow the Pak military with interest. Most of the info I gleem is from the magazine Air Forces Monthly. They have been pumping up both the F 22 and the JSF F 35. Incidentally, I hear that the teething problems of both aircraft have been largely resolved. Then again, the frame and plane is only as good as the tehcnology put in it. You may be right that the F 16 will continue to serve for even 2 more decades. Again the Air Forces monthly article on the A 10 C warthg discussed many of the modern avionics on the ground attack plane that make it so useful for US forces in ground missions. That's why I was so impressed with the faith the US has placed on the A 10 C which has done a stellar job in Iraq and Afghanistan. The platform is thoroughly upgraded and incorporates the latest technology for weapons deleivery against ground targets.

 

[Donatello]

I understand your concerns about the F 35 but I would hate to see the PAF lag behind in technology. The F 16 was developed as early as 1980. It's now 2010 and we as a nation still have a unabashed love for the F 16 but as all systems, it will become obsolete and dated. That's my only concern. You are right to point out that the next few years is critical and it would be great if the Chinese can produce somethingcomparable if not better but I still feel that the Chinese are one generation behind the West in avionics. I understand that a great deal of the F 35 may in fact be hype but if it really represents a leap in technology (the F 22 and the F 35) , we really can't afford to sit idle. I hope our air brass is keeping tabs on what's real and what's hype. I do not have a background in Air Force aviation but I follow the Pak military with interest. Most of the info I gleem is from the magazine Air Forces Monthly. They have been pumping up both the F 22 and the JSF F 35. Incidentally, I hear that the teething problems of both aircraft have been largely resolved. Then again, the frame and plane is only as good as the tehcnology put in it. You may be right that the F 16 will continue to serve for even 2 more decades. Again the Air Forces monthly article on the A 10 C warthg discussed many of the modern avionics on the ground attack plane that make it so useful for US forces in ground missions. That's why I was so impressed with the faith the US has placed on the A 10 C which has done a stellar job in Iraq and Afghanistan. The platform is thoroughly upgraded and incorporates the latest technology for weapons deleivery against ground targets.

The concept of A-10 like aircraft won't work well with Pakistan, given the budget an multitude of threats we face. We cannot have a dedicated attack aircraft, but rather JF-17 like multi role ones so we don't have to rely on Mirage for Attack and F-7s for interception role.

 

[Sialkoti]

I appreciate that the PAF is under considerable financial constraints and cannot operate a multitude of planes because it would render maintenance difficult. My interest in the A 10 C was piqued by reports that it consistently outperformed many newer planes on the battlefield. It is the close ground support plane most revered by Western ground forces- in Iraq and Afghanistan. The PE / Precision Engineer weapons is phenomenally accurate. Again this plane evolved from a clear weather ground support plane to an all weather precision weapons system using JDAMs. The helmet mounted display is as advanced as anything one can imagine. There are no plans to phase it out until after 2028 and some question whether its replacment ( for the ground attack role aspect of it) can do as well- incidentally the replacement is the F-35. I think the US should upgrade a squadron of A 10 to A 10 c and supply it to Pakistan for ground support operations against the criminals. The use of the 30 mm Gatling Gun which uses uranium depleted shells is like a knife thru butter on tanks- against hard fixed mountain enclosers, it would prove indispensible.

 

[Sapper]

I appreciate that the PAF is under considerable financial constraints and cannot operate a multitude of planes because it would render maintenance difficult. My interest in the A 10 C was piqued by reports that it consistently outperformed many newer planes on the battlefield. It is the close ground support plane most revered by Western ground forces- in Iraq and Afghanistan. The PE / Precision Engineer weapons is phenomenally accurate. Again this plane evolved from a clear weather ground support plane to an all weather precision weapons system using JDAMs. The helmet mounted display is as advanced as anything one can imagine. There are no plans to phase it out until after 2028 and some question whether its replacment ( for the ground attack role aspect of it) can do as well- incidentally the replacement is the F-35. I think the US should upgrade a squadron of A 10 to A 10 c and supply it to Pakistan for ground support operations against the criminals. The use of the 30 mm Gatling Gun which uses uranium depleted shells is like a knife thru butter on tanks- against hard fixed mountain enclosers, it would prove indispensible.

Dear,

Aircraft like A-10, predator and the likes are excellent in beating up an already "Beaten" foe, an enemy who has no SAMs, no fighter aircrafts, ineffective Ack-Ack and no radars. That is the only reason why they are effective in Iraq and Afghanistan. Only egoistic super powers can afford to buy these platforms to plough through defence-less enemy combatants and/or civilians in efforts to fuel the jingoism of their country mates back home.

In a balanced (or nearly balanced) conflict like India/Pakistan, both sides have ample resources and multiple alternative means to shoot these flying ducks off the sky with little or no effort.

Even with counter measures on automatic, A-10 will need a miracle to avoid any modern manpad. We don't need such liabilities to weigh down an already financially-over-extended PAF.

Same goes for fanboy infatuation with UCAV. Indian Pilots will have to decide on a lottery system to select the one who's going to claim the next UCAV kill, if Pakistan ever fielded UCAVs against the IAF, and vice-versa.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[General General]

Pakistan should not be looking for a wide variety of helicopters. They should select one, and stick with it. Pakistan already has facilities to maintain and service Cobras, therefore it should go for a similar type of gunship. This will allow existing facilities to support the new helis, and, if needed, salvage and cannibalise older ones to maintain newer ones. One of the main weapon of need is laser-guided-munition that can be delivered by these gunships.
As far as I have summarized, Pakistan has given the U.S. three choices; Either they provide the required equipment so that the Pak military can immediately go into N.W, wait for a year (if not more) till Pakistan can accumulate their own equipment before mounting an offensive, or make peace with the Afghan Taliban in N.W.

 

[TOPGUN]

We need Surplus upgraded cobras.. in additon we need new super cobra's and we need a heavy lift type heli as you all can see how much is there need for them as we are going through the flood issue i think this is the way it should be.

 

[Malik Usman]

In short, in the name of military aid, Pakistan wants to go with everything that they can lay their hands on, fighters, missiles, tanks, armoured brigades, choppers....

Making hay while the sun shines, huh!

Now don't tell me that you also guys also want the B-2's and the B-52's.

If we don't need those then why ur gove is crazy for its defence budget....and they also talking to US for F35 or F16 Fighters what u need for ............

---------- Post added at 11:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 PM ----------

In short, in the name of military aid, Pakistan wants to go with everything that they can lay their hands on, fighters, missiles, tanks, armoured brigades, choppers....

Making hay while the sun shines, huh!

Now don't tell me that you also guys also want the B-2's and the B-52's.

If we don't need those then why ur govt is crazy for its defence budget....and they also talking to US for F35 or F16 Fighters what u need for ............

 

[fatman17]

ASIA PACIFIC
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2010


Jane's Defence Weekly

Boeing in export discussions for AH-6i

Dzirhan Mahadzir JDW Correspondent - Singapore

Gareth Jennings Jane's Aviation Desk Editor -London

Boeing is currently engaged in discussions with a number of potential Middle East, South-Asian and Asia-Pacific customers regarding its AH-6i Little Bird light attack/armed reconnaissance helicopter.

The company's AH-6i Capture Team Leader, William Jernigan Jr, told Jane's at the Singapore Air Show on 5 February that it is looking at a Middle East & South Asian market of 24 helicopters per customer country and expects similar numbers for the Asia-Pacific region. He declined to specify who these customers might be.

Jernigan feels that the AH-6i will be a cost-effective solution for many countries, particularly as several could be purchased for the price of any one of the current heavier attack helicopters.

Boeing has been able to keep the unit price low by utilising many of the Block III Apache's systems (there is 80 per cent commonality in the display consoles of the two platforms), although Jernigan declined to state what the exact unit price might be.

He added that, beyond the military market, there is potential for unarmed AH-6is to be sold to civil authorities, given the capabilities of the integrated electro-optic/infrared (EO/IR) L-3 Wescam MX-15Di sensor system, which could be used for surveillance or search-and-rescue missions.

The AH-6i features a Rolls-Royce C30R/3M engine with 850 shp, giving it a better payload capability than the existing MH/AH-6s currently in US military service. The AH-6i's more powerful engine will also enable it to cope better with the high temperatures of the Middle East and Afghanistan.

The AH-6i's armament options include 7.62 mm or .50 cal miniguns, 70 mm (2.75 inch) rocket pods or Lockheed Martin's Direct Attack Guided Rocket (DAGR) and AGM-114 Hellfire missiles. Jernigan stated that, if required, the AH-6i could carry Stinger missiles for self-defence and also that it could easily be modified to carry any non-US helicopter weapon systems.

Also installed is a laser pointer that can be seen by ground troops with night-vision goggles, in order to overcome the disparity between having vision enhancement for ground personnel and IR for the aircraft. In addition, the MX-15Di has a laser designator and laser rangefinder as well as an eye-safe laser for training purposes.

To enable the fitting of additional avionics systems, the AH-6i's nose is more pointed than that of the standard variant, providing extra space between the display console and the front of the airframe. Valuable cabin space has been saved by a reduction in the number of system boxes required to control the wing-mounted stores, from four in the older aircraft to one in the AH-6i.

The new Little Bird variant features a 'glass cockpit'; the aircraft's main flight control and sensor information is presented to the pilot on two L-3 Communications multifunction displays mounted in the centrally located display console, which is accessible to both pilots. Boeing has not installed a standard radio fit on the AH-6i as the company has found that its international AH-64 customers usually opt to use their own radios. Two multiband commercial radios, which can easily be replaced, have therefore been fitted as a stop-gap measure.

With the additional avionics fitted in the nose of the aircraft, the rear cabin bay remains empty and can accommodate two people. Alternatively, the cabin can be used for additional ammunition or auxiliary fuel tanks.

In addition to the ballistically tolerant 62-US-gallon (235-litre) main internal fuel tank, the AH-6i can be fitted with up to three more tanks of different types, to increase its range and/or time on station. The 'T-tank' (27.5 US gallons), Goliath tank (62 US gallons) and side-mounted external tanks (two tanks each holding 31 US gallons) are already proven on the aircraft and are in use with US special forces on the MH-6 helicopter.

For increased survivability the AH-6i is configured to carry the AN/AAR-47 missile approach warning system (MAWS) and countermeasures as well as Wulfsberg RT5000/C5000 and LN251 INU/GPS enhanced communication and navigation equipment.

Although an in-service date (ISD) has not been announced, Jernigan previously told Jane's that, with the production line for the commercial MD500 variant already up and running, a launch customer for the AH-6i would be able to take delivery of its first aircraft within 21 months of signing a contract.

 

[Manticore]

 

[Manticore]

WASHINGTON, September 15, 2010 -- The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress on 14 September of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of BELL 412EP Helicopters as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $397 million.
The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of up to thirty BELL 412EP Helicopters, spare and repair parts, support equipment, ferry services, air worthiness certification, publications and technical data, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor logistics, engineering, and technical support services, and other related elements of logistics support.

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2010/pakistan_10-28.pdf

sorry if posted earlier!

 

[General General]

I think pakistan Army already operates around 2 dozen Bell 412 helicopters. I might have read somewhere that the AH 6i costs around $2 million each. If that is true, it would take just $100 million to more than double it's arsenal of attack helicopters. However, I think they have their eyes on the AH-1Z.