Pakistan wants combat copters

[ambidex]

I agree with you completely. 2 days back there was a video in one of the threads about a documentary which shows the NATO and Pakistani offensive against these elements and how dangerous the whole operation is.

While NATO has got the advantage of supporting their troops by neutralizing the enemy by first giving an offensive move by copters while Pakistani forces were living dangerously by attacking the conventional way.

I have fully agreed that copters are indeed needed and its a necessity that this menace of terrorism should be wiped out from the region for the better of the world ( which includes India).

You guys carry on the discussion as i am not an expert in defense related things but i speak with commonsense.


Thanks

I totally agrees with you Benny. Attack copter will make PA task many folds easier. I think this is the most genuine demand by PA army. Rather getting drones(strings attached, difficult {technology/satellite dependent} to absorb quickly), operating attack copters would have flushed Taliban more precisely and saved many lives.

 

[Aslan]

i think pakistan has already good combat aircraft.....

Yes but then there is a difference between a combat aircraft and a combat chopper aint it.

 

[Aslan]

I totally agrees with you Benny. Attack copter will make PA task many folds easier. I think this is the most genuine demand by PA army. Rather getting drones(strings attached, difficult {technology/satellite dependent} to absorb quickly), operating attack copters would have flushed Taliban more precisely and saved many lives.

Both Drones and Choppers are equally as important. And the need of the hour is for PA to have both.

 

[humblehobbes]

I think people are missing the point that IF Afghanistan is clear of Taliban which are supposedly being joint-hunted by the US and Pakistan, It gives the Indians a stronger foothold in Afghanistan.

and whether the Heli is a aid heli or paid Heli, it is still gonna have large caliber bullets and hole thru your head is still a hole thru you. Does not matter whether its Paid or AID.

Also understand that Pakistan is far more dependable and a comparitively better country to deal with rather than the Talibans. Would the Indians like Talibans in Pakistan? Imagine the what would happen to the Kashmir dams if the Taliban were going to spread in Pakistan Anyone remembers what happened to the Buddha StatueS? Who would the Indians want in Afghanistan? the Taliban?

I detect something called as missing the woods for the trees. (correct me If am wrong, Hobbes is rather poor in such flamboyant phrases and vocabulary)

 

[Awesome]

There seems to be at least some support among the higher ups in the US as can be seen from McCain's comments.

What I am wondering is that even if they agree to giving us some copters, it'll take some time for us to get them, probably even an year before we get the first one. Will they be useful by then? I mean hopefully we will have sent the Taliban to the grave by then and they'll be useful in keeping the situation under control but the primary use would have died out a bit.

However you cut it, the fight's not going to be over in at least 10 years. The US would back off after July 2011, but Pakistan's fight would go on.

Secondly, this will change the Army Aviation almost entirely. The whole ballgame will be changed and new squadrons will be raised besides up gradation of existing facilities. If they are serious about the proposal to acquire such copters, does anybody know about the Aviation's preparations on it or is it just a wild request?

Add a couple years more into the training.

Also once the deal is signed off, as tradition dictates (for example with the new F-16s) we'll probably be sending our guys to the US for training.

Both the drones and choppers are very specific to hunting militants and conducting battle in close proximity to civilian populations. Without the right equipment, the civilian casualties would be high and once that happens the popularity of the fight starts to go south.

 

[ambidex]

Both Drones and Choppers are equally as important. And the need of the hour is for PA to have both.

Out of topic:Not really, drones have prolonged the war and Taliban has deceived many confirmed kills so far. Pakistan has to win this war by sanitizing tehsil to tehsil and district to district other wise chances are very slim. (This is what PA is doing and taking toll of precious lives).

Drones are ineffectual against already scattered Taliban. Furthermore Pakistan do not have i repeat do not have technological base/infrastructure to operate drones independently so better leave it with USA. I mean you have to send a new dedicated satellite in space to start operating drones of that kind. Asking drones to boost present offences from USA is like making fun of your self.

 

[Awesome]

Out of topic:Not really, drones have prolonged the war and Taliban has deceived many confirmed kills so far. Pakistan has to win this war by sanitizing tehsil to tehsil and district to district other wise chances are very slim. (This is what PA is doing and taking toll of precious lives).

Drones are ineffectual against already scattered Taliban. Furthermore Pakistan do not have i repeat do not have technological base/infrastructure to operate drones independently so better leave it with USA. I mean you have to send a new dedicated satellite in space to start operating drones of that kind. Asking drones to boost present offences from USA is like making fun of your self.

Drones are ineffectual against already scattered Taliban.

That is factually incorrect, the drones have changed the outlook of the war. The idea is not to hit scattered Taliban men walking about. You hit their leaders, convoys, bases, houses - and sometimes play dirty and hit their family members.

They are highly accurate and afford you the capability to sneak up on to the enemy and make a kill from up close. The only issue remains of having prior knowledge where the enemy is.

That won't change if we went in by foot or not. Only one confirmed kill was deceived that is Hakimullah Mehsud. That too the hit was clean, he just got injured and did not die.

It's a flying bazooka. If you aim it at the right target, you'll get the right kill, if not civilians will die. The drones make up for a great anti-terrorist weapon.

The Satellite link up is mostly necessary to operate the drones from many continents away. Granted there's a huge targeting component as well, but its not like they can't be operated from our forward bases as well. They have cameras, they have transceivers, you aim, you shoot.

 

[Icarus]

I dont think u people required special chopper to counter Taliban...even a simple civil chopper having gun attached to it can counter taliban...but if ur target is india...
then i will say....you will not get anything....lol

They have shot down more than 2 Mi-17s, about 3 bells and 2 cobras, civil copter with gun you say ? I think quite the opposite.

 

[MKI 30]

I don't think pakistan will get these copters. They will give you outdated copters which has seen its life in US Military, like they have been doing in the past.
pakistan should rather look towards china than US.

 

[Icarus]

After reading the past few pages of discussion I can only sum up that Indians believe that we want choppers for them, to which I would reply, please don't flatter yourself, If we had any plans for going a round with India, we wouldn't have taken a third of our force off the eastern border. These choppers are solely meant for use against the Taliban(for the time being) however should the need arise, we will feel no hesitation in using these against India either. The current fleet of Pakistani helicopters is under severe stress, they are performing duties all over the country, from aerial recon over Islamabad, bombing Taliban hideouts, supplying food/ammo/supplies to posts, carrying out medivacs, transporting goods to the battlefield, and transporting troops.
During all this helicopters are being fired at from AK AKs and RPG-7s, the fleet needs to be enlarged to take some load off the machines and pilots who are under severe strain. Talks for up to 64 Apache Longbows have been under way since 2008. Apaches or Bells/Chinooks/Blackhawks are desperately required for operations against the terrorists.
Many Indians also seem to be of the view that these helicopters will be given to us under an aid package, to which I would like to say: "Amreeki sadi phoophi day puttar nai haighay jairay sanoo anay helicopter muft ich dain noo tayar ho jaan gay.

 

[Sapper]

During all this helicopters are being fired at from AK AKs and RPG-7s

Dear,

A little correction is due here, so please don't mind.

Taliban's have a huge number of anti aircraft (low level flight only) gun of 14.7mm and 12.7mm caliber of Soviet, Local Dara, and allegedly Indian origins. Ammo for them is no problem since local made bullets/shells are easily available in Darra and FATA.

They mount these on hidden elevated positions and wait for any choppers to fly by at low altitudes and fire on them very regularly. Cobra's retaliate from a safe distance, but Transport Heli's usually try to get the hell out of there ASAP.

Mostly they cause minor damage and usually miss, but most of the Heli losses and damage have been attributed to these large caliber guns rather than RPG's and AK47's.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[maverick1977]

if pakistan wants to give a big punch to taligoons and keep the loss of our precious soldiers lives to minimum then we need more choppers. this demand is genuine. However, Pakistan to trying to kill two birds with one arrow.

1) to get rid of talis
2) is to use the latest airpower against india later if needed, the reason being that Pakistan couldve requested any number of Cobra helicopters but they have requested apaches instead.

Now having said that, a strong heavy lift capability is a must of PA which they have lacked for a long time...

 

[Icarus]

Dear,

A little correction is due here, so please don't mind.

Taliban's have a huge number of anti aircraft (low level flight only) gun of 14.7mm and 12.7mm caliber of Soviet, Local Dara, and allegedly Indian origins. Ammo for them is no problem since local made bullets/shells are easily available in Darra and FATA.

They mount these on hidden elevated positions and wait for any choppers to fly by at low altitudes and fire on them very regularly. Cobra's retaliate from a safe distance, but Transport Heli's usually try to get the hell out of there ASAP.

Mostly they cause minor damage and usually miss, but most of the Heli losses and damage have been attributed to these large caliber guns rather than RPG's and AK47's.

Regards,
Sapper

Thank you for your interest in the topic sir, so far in Bajaur, I have yet to see the Taliban with surface to air missiles, I am not sure about other areas though, by AKAK I was not referring to the Klashnikov but rather to the anti-aircraft guns which are known as AKAKs.
In Bajaur, all the helicopters that were shot at reported being targeted by RPG-7s and anti-aircraft guns rather than shoulder mounted SAMs, although one Mi-17 was shot down with what was believed to be a Stinger, however the investigation and subsequent findings did not involve me therefore I am unaware of the outcome.
Hope I managed to clear any doubts,
Regards,

 

[Icarus]

if pakistan wants to give a big punch to taligoons and keep the loss of our precious soldiers lives to minimum then we need more choppers. this demand is genuine. However, Pakistan to trying to kill two birds with one arrow.

1) to get rid of talis
2) is to use the latest airpower against india later if needed, the reason being that Pakistan couldve requested any number of Cobra helicopters but they have requested apaches instead.

Now having said that, a strong heavy lift capability is a must of PA which they have lacked for a long time...

I do not agree with point number 2, Cobras have been outdated for quite some time, Apaches have been requested because of certain feature that make them desirable for LIC.
1) Better Radar
2) Machine gun that moves with the pilots sight, often talib transport has to be targeted on public roads, the slightest miscalculations as to where to place the cannon can have disastrous consequences and can result in enormous collateral damage.
3) Fire an forget capability
4) With a difference of only about 3 million per piece between Cobras and Apaches, the latter seems to be the wiser choice.
5) The latest Cobra version AH-1Z is not available for export.

 

[Sapper]

Thank you for your interest in the topic sir, so far in Bajaur, I have yet to see the Taliban with surface to air missiles, I am not sure about other areas though, by AKAK I was not referring to the Klashnikov but rather to the anti-aircraft guns which are known as AKAKs.
In Bajaur, all the helicopters that were shot at reported being targeted by RPG-7s and anti-aircraft guns rather than shoulder mounted SAMs, although one Mi-17 was shot down with what was believed to be a Stinger, however the investigation and subsequent findings did not involve me therefore I am unaware of the outcome.
Hope I managed to clear any doubts,
Regards,

Dear,

Sorry for confusing your Ack-Acks with AKs , since i have never experienced this Army slang in written form before ... Please accept my apologies.

My sources tell me the same, that there are no evidence of guided Manpads in Fata, and RPGs are useless in targeting a moving air target at ranges of probably more than 50~100 meters. They indeed have a lot of 14.7mm guns in possession, which is the biggest threat posed by them.

I believe you are referring to the last Mi17 loss by PA, losing 26 souls aboard. A course-mate of my friend was co-pilot of that ill-fated bird, which was heavily overladen and was flying hill-top level due to excess weight. The last communication from that bird were "fire fire" and mayday calls, probably reporting internal fire due to some hits they took, or to communicate that they were being fired upon by automatic munition. May their souls rest in peace.

Regards,
Sapper