Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions.

[Adam_Khan]

Hi guys,
The Mothers Day video from PAF showed a lady Squadron Leader behind the controls of an interesting cockpit which I haven't been able to identify. The yoke in the Flight Deck seems very...Rusian.

It isn't the Saab 2000 or the Y-8. It isn't the Falcon 20, nor the Gulfstream G450. It isn't the CASA CN-235 either. And it isn't that Bombardier Challenger 605 (EYE 77) that we've been discussing - recently.

Any takers?

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@araz @airomerix @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Knuckles @Adam_Khan @GriffinsRule @ziaulislam

@airomerix is correct, it's a Phenom and the squadron has quite a few female pilots by now.
I don't seem to grasp the logic behind sending women to fighter OCU's when none have actually gone beyond that point and served in fighter squadrons,it's sad to be honest.

 

[airomerix]

You know, I noticed a lot of the ones who were shown as GD(P) trainees are now non-fighter flying or in other areas (e.g., AEW&C).

@airomerix are numbers in decline, or is the inflow of female fighter flying trainees consistent each year?

Yes, the numbers are definitely in decline. We have learned our lessons. The routine of a GdP is not well suited for a woman in our culture. Requires long hours, over night duties. It is essentially how we prepare them for war like situation every day. We cannot necessarily adjust the roaster to accommodate females as this luxury is simply not there in wars.

Furthermore, females typically ask for alot of leaves due to medical/biological reasons. It again hampers the training and operational schedule. As we wouldnt want to send up a female with her back hurting. Alot goes into it. It's a long debate and i dont want to be tagged a misogynist as i'm merely stating the learnings.

Lastly, PAF does not have a strict quota for females to join GDP. If they all qualify, good. If not, no one gets the wings.

Roughly how many female combat pilots does PAF has?

I'm not sure. I think only one is left on F-7s. There is none on F-16s, JF-17s and Mirages.

@airomerix is correct, it's a Phenom and the squadron has quite a few female pilots by now.
I don't seem to grasp the logic behind sending women to fighter OCU's when none have actually gone beyond that point and served in fighter squadrons,it's sad to be honest.

OCU is very tough to qualify. It is commendable that they make it past FCU atleast, which on in its own is very difficult and disqualifies more than 60% of the batch to slow flying, log sqn,'s and other arms.

But yes, sadly, none of the females have qualified for even a pair leader. Let alone, becoming a section leader/flight cmdr and going upto OC.

 

[Raider 21]

Losing a fighter rating is never a step up. Even if you get C-130's which is the most favorite in combat support role.

She's currently doing a captain course at Y-12. Very soon she will command an aircraft of her own. Also, aircraft like Y-12, C-130 open doors for pilots to airlines due to 4 engine ratings.

Some officers are better as transport pilots as opposed to being mediocre fighter pilots. Same goes the other way around, seen plenty successful fighter jocks struggle to grasp basic airliner flying concepts.

@airomerix is correct, it's a Phenom and the squadron has quite a few female pilots by now.
I don't seem to grasp the logic behind sending women to fighter OCU's when none have actually gone beyond that point and served in fighter squadrons,it's sad to be honest.

That's how the system is. The OCU course flying can't differentiate between males and females, same goes for the jets. They do well, they'll pass ahead. They don't, other streams follow. Yes some skirmishes do exist with some instructors but it is all about performance and potential.

 

[airomerix]

Some officers are better as transport pilots as opposed to being mediocre fighter pilots. Same goes the other way around, seen plenty successful fighter jocks struggle to grasp basic airliner flying concepts.


That's how the system is. The OCU course flying can't differentiate between males and females, same goes for the jets. They do well, they'll pass ahead. They don't, other streams follow. Yes some skirmishes do exist with some instructors but it is all about performance and potential.

True.

However, i've heard quite alot of stories of these 'skirmishes' between good pilots and their instructors over petty issues. I know a pilot who was sidelined because he took a shot of the sqn flt cmdr during a 2v2. He was roasted because he took a shot of a senior sqn ldr as a flg officer.

I know another one who used to bring in ideas of air combat off the internet from the literature available from ex USAF pilots and other sources, he was roasted too because the instructor's ego was hurt.

CCS is known for the clash of ego's. I met someone who is in Qatar Airways right now. He gave CCS instructors a run for their money during engagements. Top notch material! Was a Sher Afghan had he completed the last two missions. But in the process, developed hostility with OC CCS. He was chewed out and sent to AHQ. Never wanted to fly again despite Sohail Aman's repeated requests. Left the Air force for Airblue and now he's in Qatar.

 

[Raider 21]

True.

However, i've heard quite alot of stories of these 'skirmishes' between good pilots and their instructors over petty issues. I know a pilot who was sidelined because he took a shot of the sqn flt cmdr during a 2v2. He was roasted because he took a shot of a senior sqn ldr as a flg officer.

I know another one who used to bring in ideas of air combat off the internet from the literature available from ex USAF pilots and other sources, he was roasted too because the instructor's ego was hurt.

CCS is known for the clash of ego's. I met someone who is in Qatar Airways right now. He gave CCS instructors a run for their money during engagements. Top notch material! Was a Sher Afghan had he completed the last two missions. But in the process, developed hostility with OC CCS. He was chewed out and sent to AHQ. Never wanted to fly again despite Sohail Aman's repeated requests. Left the Air force for Airblue and now he's in Qatar.

My dad experienced similar fights, one notably during the evaluation of the ATLIS pod in the 90s on the F-16.

I've heard of the last one. Here's another bad one. An OCU IP suspended some officers from fighters, turns out the IP had a bad habit of failing students for nothing. IP sacked, the unfortunate students under them ended up moving to helicopters.

 

[Adam_Khan]

Some officers are better as transport pilots as opposed to being mediocre fighter pilots. Same goes the other way around, seen plenty successful fighter jocks struggle to grasp basic airliner flying concepts.


That's how the system is. The OCU course flying can't differentiate between males and females, same goes for the jets. They do well, they'll pass ahead. They don't, other streams follow. Yes some skirmishes do exist with some instructors but it is all about performance and potential.

I've personally seen guys who are more keen on going to transport/ AWACS just because it improves their chance of getting into airline flying later on and these days quite a few of them think along these lines.

You're right that they can't change the OCU curriculum but my point is that if not a single female pilot has gone beyond that stage then shouldn't sending them to OCU's for fighter aircraft be stopped.

Ps,from what I've heard the induction rate of women in GDP branch is already falling.

 

[Raider 21]

I've personally seen guys who are more keen on going to transport/ AWACS just because it improves their chance of getting into airline flying later on and these days quite a few of them think along these lines.

You're right that they can't change the OCU curriculum but my point is that if not a single female pilot has gone beyond that stage then shouldn't sending them to OCU's for fighter aircraft be stopped.

Ps,from what I've heard the induction rate of women in GDP branch is already falling.

I'd say negative on that because you never know if a female pilot trainee passes and exceeds her male counterparts at some point.

 

[Adam_Khan]

I'd say negative on that because you never know if a female pilot trainee passes and exceeds her male counterparts at some point.

In our society I doubt that's going to happen anytime soon,not that I'm being a misogynist though. There was one who won the sword of honor, heard her husband was an Army Captain and because of social pressure had to join ATC.

 

[Talon]

Roughly how many female combat pilots does PAF has?

None

@airomerix is correct, it's a Phenom and the squadron has quite a few female pilots by now.
I don't seem to grasp the logic behind sending women to fighter OCU's when none have actually gone beyond that point and served in fighter squadrons,it's sad to be honest.

S/L Ayesha Farooq and F/O Maryam both qualified OCU, unfortunately we lost Maryam and Ayesha was in slow flying last time I checked.

OCU isnt easy,even 3-4 male pilots of each course fail in it, sometimes more.

True.

However, i've heard quite alot of stories of these 'skirmishes' between good pilots and their instructors over petty issues. I know a pilot who was sidelined because he took a shot of the sqn flt cmdr during a 2v2. He was roasted because he took a shot of a senior sqn ldr as a flg officer.

I know another one who used to bring in ideas of air combat off the internet from the literature available from ex USAF pilots and other sources, he was roasted too because the instructor's ego was hurt.

CCS is known for the clash of ego's. I met someone who is in Qatar Airways right now. He gave CCS instructors a run for their money during engagements. Top notch material! Was a Sher Afghan had he completed the last two missions. But in the process, developed hostility with OC CCS. He was chewed out and sent to AHQ. Never wanted to fly again despite Sohail Aman's repeated requests. Left the Air force for Airblue and now he's in Qatar.

Couldn't say better.If you want to excel in the Air Force just do Jee Sir and dont bring up creative ideas unless you are very senior.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

F-7

Was it saved or crashed?

I think only one is left on F-7s. There is none on F-16s, JF-17s and Mirages.

None

BTW Why do PAF have qouta for females? Why don't they compete in similar tests to males?
@Adam_Khan

 

[Raider 21]

True.

However, i've heard quite alot of stories of these 'skirmishes' between good pilots and their instructors over petty issues. I know a pilot who was sidelined because he took a shot of the sqn flt cmdr during a 2v2. He was roasted because he took a shot of a senior sqn ldr as a flg officer.

I know another one who used to bring in ideas of air combat off the internet from the literature available from ex USAF pilots and other sources, he was roasted too because the instructor's ego was hurt.

CCS is known for the clash of ego's. I met someone who is in Qatar Airways right now. He gave CCS instructors a run for their money during engagements. Top notch material! Was a Sher Afghan had he completed the last two missions. But in the process, developed hostility with OC CCS. He was chewed out and sent to AHQ. Never wanted to fly again despite Sohail Aman's repeated requests. Left the Air force for Airblue and now he's in Qatar.

I got a scenario from 1993. 2 v 4 CCS. 2 Vipers, 4 Mirages. One of the Vipers developed engine problems and egressed. The sole Viper (lead) shot all 4 Mirages. Imagine how the debriefing was, I'll leave that up to you to think as it was a Sqn Ldr against the judgment of senior staff pilots (by rank, not flying hours).

 

[Armchair]

I got a scenario from 1993. 2 v 4 CCS. 2 Vipers, 4 Mirages. One of the Vipers developed engine problems and egressed. The sole Viper (lead) shot all 4 Mirages. Imagine how the debriefing was, I'll leave that up to you to think as it was a Sqn Ldr against the judgment of senior staff pilots (by rank, not flying hours).

Shameful to read the stories here. This is why PAF should not be allowed to keep things in the dark. Pakistan deserves better. PAF is not a fiefdom for anyone, if competence is not honoured, no amount of feel good stories will help PAF win the next air war.

 

[Maxpane]

thats shame ful why dnt they change their culture

 

[Talon]

Was it saved or crashed?

BTW Why do PAF have qouta for females? Why don't they compete in similar tests to males?
@Adam_Khan

Yeah I know her,she recently cleared her FCU and I don't know if she has even flown the F-7 yet or not,even if she is flying it she is not a fighter pilot untill she passes OCU and becomes an Ops pilot which will take 1 to 1.5 years from her current stage.

How can an aircraft be saved if its pilot ejects? AutoBot hy ya F7?

 

[Raider 21]

Shameful to read the stories here. This is why PAF should not be allowed to keep things in the dark. Pakistan deserves better. PAF is not a fiefdom for anyone, if competence is not honoured, no amount of feel good stories will help PAF win the next air war.

It is not to say it this is normal.But highlighting that it is not uncommon. And it has a lot do with the cultural aspect, which won't change overnight,