Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions.

[GriffinsRule]

Yep. If you also factor-out the DACT hours CCS uses on the F-16s, the LIFT ends up saving even more.

You cant have DACT with LIFT trainers alone... how are you supposed to know the strengths and weaknesses of your fighter jet platform while flying something that is a watered down version of frontline jets and meant to ease with the transition and introducing some other flight dynamics up from a basic/intermediate jet trainer?
A trainer would not give you that experience. I am really surprised you would bring this up as a point in favor or LIFT.

 

[Armchair]

The problem is to find a LIFT that has similar flight characteristics and instrumentation to an F-16. Perhaps the JFT-B can be tailored for this. T-50s are ideal but way too expensive. Don't know if the L-15 is junk or would have usefulness.

Modern LIFT often come with special programming that allows them to mimic (roughly) a certain aircraft) can the Italian M-346 do this for the F-16? Can the L-15 be setup that way? It looks like a simple decision but once you look at the nitty gritty the issue becomes complex.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

You cant have DACT with LIFT trainers ... how are you supposed to know the strengths and weaknesses of your fighter jet platform while flying something that is a watered down version of frontline jets and meant to ease with the transition and introducing some other flight dynamics up from a basic/intermediate jet trainer?
A trainer would not give you that experience. I am really surprised you would bring this up as a point in favor or LIFT.

You wouldn't take out other fighters entirely, just reduce the # of DACT hours they're spending by giving some hours to a LIFT. The LIFT can help with other parts at a lower cost, e.g., simulating an enemy asset with BVR and network-enabled support. You might not need an F-16 to provide that for every DACT mission, only some.

 

[MastanKhan]

I think what we should be offering foreign air forces is:

1. PAF's vaunted role in training fighter pilots.
2. Package deals - buy the aircraft, support and training all put together
3. Package deals 2 - lease a squadron, fighter pilots and maintenance crew come with the aircraft.

Deal 3 is something we can offer that almost no one else can competitively offer.

Hi,

We are desperately trying---. We missed the boat because we did not have the two seater---.

Otherwise it would have been a different story---.

 

[GriffinsRule]

You wouldn't take out other fighters entirely, just reduce the # of DACT hours they're spending by giving some hours to a LIFT. The LIFT can help with other parts at a lower cost, e.g., simulating an enemy asset with BVR and network-enabled support. You might not need an F-16 to provide that for every DACT mission, only some.

Ah I see what you were trying to say.

 

[MastanKhan]

You cant have DACT with LIFT trainers alone... how are you supposed to know the strengths and weaknesses of your fighter jet platform while flying something that is a watered down version of frontline jets and meant to ease with the transition and introducing some other flight dynamics up from a basic/intermediate jet trainer?
A trainer would not give you that experience. I am really surprised you would bring this up as a point in favor or LIFT.

Hi,

The environment that we live in---with such a large modern enemy fleet next door---we really cannot afford to have lesser capability aircraft to train on or for the pilots to keep their hours---.

To hone our abilities to the sharpest & to best utilize our resources---we will have to fly our aircraft that we will fly into the battle with---.

The JF17 is our best assets---we can fly it as much as we can---because the rebuilt cost or the cost of a new aircraft is extremely low---.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Ah I see what you were trying to say.

It seems the Italian Air Force is already doing this with its M-346s.

From Feb. 4 to 12, two T-346As (Italian Air Force designation for the AleniaAermacchi* M346 “Master”) belonging to the 61° Stormo (Wing) based at Lecce Galatina airport, Italy, deployed to Albacete airbase, Spain, to take part in the TLP (Tactical Leadership Programme) in the “Aggressors” role.

The Italian Masters had already successfully undertaken such task at Grosseto airbase in May 2015, when the T-346 jets conducted several aerial combat sorties against the local-based F-2000A Typhoons of the 4° Stormo.

https://theaviationist.com/2016/02/...or-during-nato-tactical-leadership-programme/
​

...and Leonardo's marketing it too:

https://www.leonardocompany.com/doc...et_Aermacchi_M_346RedAir_.pdf?t=1538987671612

 

[Armchair]

It seems the Italian Air Force is already doing this with its M-346s.

From Feb. 4 to 12, two T-346As (Italian Air Force designation for the AleniaAermacchi* M346 “Master”) belonging to the 61° Stormo (Wing) based at Lecce Galatina airport, Italy, deployed to Albacete airbase, Spain, to take part in the TLP (Tactical Leadership Programme) in the “Aggressors” role.

The Italian Masters had already successfully undertaken such task at Grosseto airbase in May 2015, when the T-346 jets conducted several aerial combat sorties against the local-based F-2000A Typhoons of the 4° Stormo.

https://theaviationist.com/2016/02/...or-during-nato-tactical-leadership-programme/
​

...and Leonardo's marketing it too:

View attachment 572482
https://www.leonardocompany.com/doc...et_Aermacchi_M_346RedAir_.pdf?t=1538987671612

The M-346 is designed to mimic the control and flight characteristics of multiple aircraft, thus they can be used in this way to a good extent.

 

[messiach]

Good catch Khan Sahib. I have the answer but very unfortunately cant discuss.

Hi,

So if I may ask---why did the Paf generals claim around that time a few years later---that Paf did not need a trainer---JF17 was a very easy aircraft to fly---.

Why did they need an advanced trainer---?

Yes this is interesting news. I know.

J10C with...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1156824542188363777

 

[Raider 21]

Hi,

So if I may ask---why did the Paf generals claim around that time a few years later---that Paf did not need a trainer---JF17 was a very easy aircraft to fly---.

Why did they need an advanced trainer---?

I knew ex-Wing Commanders flying as IPs. Don't know about generals. You can relay that question to them....

 

[Raider 21]

Hi,

That is understood---it is by default---.

Maybe they need to invest in a real time flight simulator---maybe more than one---.

But what happened to " we have superior pilots---we don't need a lift---single seater JF17 would do the job---it is very easy to fly "---.

Now which ACM needs to put his head on the chopping block---because a twin seater was the need of the hour right from day one---. We would have sold so many JF17's by now with the twin seater package---.

They have a very good flight simulator. Very good setup, almost at every air base that has a Thunder squadron.

 

[Silicon0000]

NGFA is on track then.

I never said it will be using turbines from A,B or C. All it meant is we have backup availability.

Hi,

So if I may ask---why did the Paf generals claim around that time a few years later---that Paf did not need a trainer---JF17 was a very easy aircraft to fly---.

Why did they need an advanced trainer---?

Good catch Khan Sahib. I have the answer but very unfortunately cant discuss.


Yes this is interesting news. I know.

I am getting a feeling that AZM/NGFA is single engine and in a sense evolution of J10

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I am getting a feeling that AZM/NGFA is single engine and in a sense evolution of J10

The PAF CAS' words (via IHS Jane's, May 2019)

 

[Tamiyah]

The PAF CAS' words (via IHS Jane's, May 2019)

View attachment 572618

It means that it would be a collabration with China or Turkey. Bilal Do you think TF-X stand a chance in this?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

It means that it would be a collabration with China or Turkey. Bilal Do you think TF-X stand a chance in this?

The key is "ITAR-free." In other words, for the TF-X to stand a chance, Turkey will need to eliminate any and all US inputs and, in turn, ensure that the technology (their own or from Europe) has no regulatory links to the US.