Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions.

[Ali_Baba]

PAF has singled engined fighters, so LIFT roled aircraft only ever needed to be single engined. Now, that Azm will be twin engined, PAF will revist its training pipeline and associated procurement to ensure it has the processes and tools in place to train PAF pilots of the future. Chances are that the new LIFT procurement will need to be twin engined ?

 

[messiach]

I never said it will be using turbines from A,B or C. All it meant is we have backup availability.

M'am why do i get this impression that AZM will be employing chinese turbofans...

 

[Raider 21]

Sir,
It is interesting to note that M-346 was a joint venture between Russia and Italy which was abandoned because of sanctions imposed by USA on Russia, Russia however modified and improved on the M346 to produce YAK-140 and the Chinese developed the L-15 with some collaboration with Russia. All these aircraft have one thing in common that is these are twin engined aircraft.

KAI/LM T-50 is a mini F-16 using a single F-18 engine. T-50 that are being flown in Korean Air Force have not gone through upgrades that USAF had requested LM for. The upgrades are designed similar to F-16 block upgrades. This aircraft uses a single General Electric F404-102 turbofan engine with Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC) system. The engine consists of three-staged fans, seven axial stage arrangement, and an afterburner. The aircraft has a maximum speed of Mach 1.5. Its engine produces a maximum of 78.7 kN (17,700 lbf) of thrust with afterburner making it the only supersonic LIFT platform.

Paf has historically relied more on single engined platforms but there were many twin engined aircraft flown as well by PAF. The Karakorum 8 that is being used is a single engined aircraft but it is only used as an intermediate trainer where as F-6T (now decommissioned) was used for supersonic flight training which added both expense and time. Since this is gone supersonic training is done on OCU aircraft and simulators. Though training done on simulators is far more advance and beyond what can be achieved in a real aircraft still some consider that it is not the real thing (something I personally disagree).

Irrespective to what were the parameters set by PAF for evaluation of LIFT platforms would it not be in the best interest to have something that can give both transonic and supersonic capability with also attack capability and limited area deniability.

T-50 would have been great. 2 ex-PAF pilots in UAE did an initial evaluation of it back in 2005, it was very impressive in their opinion.

 

[Beethoven]

I never said it will be using turbines from A,B or C. All it meant is we have backup availability.

Ok.....it means chinese turbofans will be used as backup just in case we dont get them from......

 

[GriffinsRule]

T-37 used in PAF for jet training along with the K-8 is a twin engine aircraft as well.

 

[Dazzler]

NGFA is on track then.

J10C with...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1156824542188363777

 

[MastanKhan]

T-50 would have been great. 2 ex-PAF pilots in UAE did an initial evaluation of it back in 2005, it was very impressive in their opinion.

Hi,

So if I may ask---why did the Paf generals claim around that time a few years later---that Paf did not need a trainer---JF17 was a very easy aircraft to fly---.

Why did they need an advanced trainer---?

 

[GriffinsRule]

Hi,

So if I may ask---why did the Paf generals claim around that time a few years later---that Paf did not need a trainer---JF17 was a very easy aircraft to fly---.

Why did they need an advanced trainer---?

Cost. I recall watching an interview with the previous chief that actually stated something along the lines of, we are interesting in a LIFT but the current offerings have added on too many other features, that they find secondary for the role, which has resulted in the prices being too high to justify the cost. So they were always interested in getting one, but didnt want a gold plated edition, of sorts.
That was still a while ago, before AZM and before the idea of Pakistan going for its own NGFA. Maybe they updated where the PAF should be in 10-20 years and are accordingly pursuing or prioritizing a different strategy.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi,

So if I may ask---why did the Paf generals claim around that time a few years later---that Paf did not need a trainer---JF17 was a very easy aircraft to fly---.

Why did they need an advanced trainer---?

Cost. I recall watching an interview with the previous chief that actually stated something along the lines of, we are interesting in a LIFT but the current offerings have added on too many other features, that they find secondary for the role, which has resulted in the prices being too high to justify the cost. So they were always interested in getting one, but didnt want a gold plated edition, of sorts.
That was still a while ago, before AZM and before the idea of Pakistan going for its own NGFA. Maybe they updated where the PAF should be in 10-20 years and are accordingly pursuing or prioritizing a different strategy.

It looks like it.

According to IHS Jane's interview with the PAF CAS in May 2019, the PAF's ordering 26 JF-17Bs to train young pilots "without first putting them through the F-16, Mirage or F-7P/PG as they are now." So, that big tells me that the PAF wants to start assigning rookie pilots to the JF-17, right away.

But in the same interview, the CAS says the PAF needs a LIFT with "an air interdiction radar and datalink training system," and that it must happen before the "FGFA capability comes online."

So, the PAF wants a LIFT to prepare pilots for a 4+/5th-gen cockpit right away: finish FCU on the LIFT, and then move onto the OCU on the JF-17B or F-16B/D.

In other words, it's more than learning how to fly the JF-17, but now also knowing BVR, network-enabled operations, using a targeting or recon pod, EW/ECM, etc before doing any OCU flying.

I think there's also a secondary intent, and that is to lessen the Mirage and F-16s' DACT usage at CCS.

 

[MastanKhan]

It looks like it.

According to IHS Jane's interview with the PAF CAS in May 2019, the PAF's ordering 26 JF-17Bs to train young pilots "without first putting them through the F-16, Mirage or F-7P/PG as they are now." So, that big tells me that the PAF wants to start assigning rookie pilots to the JF-17, right away.

But in the same interview, the CAS says the PAF needs a LIFT with "an air interdiction radar and datalink training system," and that it must happen before the "FGFA capability comes online."

So, the PAF wants a LIFT to prepare pilots for a 4+/5th-gen cockpit right away: finish FCU on the LIFT, and then move onto the OCU on the JF-17B or F-16B/D.

In other words, it's more than learning how to fly the JF-17, but now also knowing BVR, network-enabled operations, using a targeting or recon pod, EW/ECM, etc before doing any OCU flying.

I think there's also a secondary intent, and that is to lessen the Mirage and F-16s' DACT usage at CCS.

Hi,

Technology---so much technology overload---. That is why I was always in favor of more 2 seaters than single seaters---.

The single seaters were like cowboys going in with their six shooters---.

The 2 seaters were like the team that went into the gunfight at the ok corral---. The better team won.

Here is what I think---. Paf need to find a way to load the JF17 with around 5 or 6 BVR's---the datalink is obviously there between all aircraft of the group---.

On an air superiority mission---the twin seater would be the leader and the back seater would be the mission incharge---be able to lock and launch all the missiles from the individual aircrafts within that air superiority group at the enemy aircaft or it it is a strike mission against enemy assets then launch the appropriate weapons---.

 

[Armchair]

If you can subtract some of the hours a PAF pilot needs to fly in an F-16, you increase the operational life of the jet. If LIFT aircraft can be used for keeping pilots current while using F-16 hours less, they are well worth the money.

Hi,

Technology---so much technology overload---. That is why I was always in favor of more 2 seaters than single seaters---.

The single seaters were like cowboys going in with their six shooters---.

The 2 seaters were like the team that went into the gunfight at the ok corral---. The better team won.

Here is what I think---. Paf need to find a way to load the JF17 with around 5 or 6 BVR's---the datalink is obviously there between all aircraft of the group---.

On an air superiority mission---the twin seater would be the leader and the back seater would be the mission incharge---be able to lock and launch all the missiles from the individual aircrafts within that air superiority group at the enemy aircaft or it it is a strike mission against enemy assets then launch the appropriate weapons---.

If you can include UCAVs into that group, that second seat "commander" can use the racks on the UCAVs as BVR carriers.

 

[MastanKhan]

If you can subtract some of the hours a PAF pilot needs to fly in an F-16, you increase the operational life of the jet. If LIFT aircraft can be used for keeping pilots current while using F-16 hours less, they are well worth the money.



If you can include UCAVs into that group, that second seat "commander" can use the racks on the UCAVs as BVR carriers.

Hi,

That is understood---it is by default---.

Maybe they need to invest in a real time flight simulator---maybe more than one---.

But what happened to " we have superior pilots---we don't need a lift---single seater JF17 would do the job---it is very easy to fly "---.

Now which ACM needs to put his head on the chopping block---because a twin seater was the need of the hour right from day one---. We would have sold so many JF17's by now with the twin seater package---.

 

[Armchair]

Hi,

That is understood---it is by default---.

Maybe they need to invest in a real time flight simulator---maybe more than one---.

But what happened to " we have superior pilots---we don't need a lift---single seater JF17 would do the job---it is very easy to fly "---.

Now which ACM needs to put his head on the chopping block---because a twin seater was the need of the hour right from day one---. We would have sold so many JF17's by now with the twin seater package---.

I think what we should be offering foreign air forces is:

1. PAF's vaunted role in training fighter pilots.
2. Package deals - buy the aircraft, support and training all put together
3. Package deals 2 - lease a squadron, fighter pilots and maintenance crew come with the aircraft.

Deal 3 is something we can offer that almost no one else can competitively offer.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

If you can subtract some of the hours a PAF pilot needs to fly in an F-16, you increase the operational life of the jet. If LIFT aircraft can be used for keeping pilots current while using F-16 hours less, they are well worth the money.



If you can include UCAVs into that group, that second seat "commander" can use the racks on the UCAVs as BVR carriers.

Yep. If you also factor-out the DACT hours CCS uses on the F-16s, the LIFT ends up saving even more.

 

[Armchair]

Yep. If you also factor-out the DACT hours CCS uses on the F-16s, the LIFT ends up saving even more.

Even the US uses F-5s / T-38s in DACT