Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions.

[MastanKhan]

Yup exactly what I thought when I saw people debating it , they tend to forget we have no dedicated strike craft so in war if desperate CAS is needed any aircraft doing CAP would be routed to provide cannon fire ,

Hi,

But this scenario is different that what other posters are saying---they are giving the examples of the 60's---and using the gun for dog fights---and dog fights---they are not against slow moving air crafts---but against air crafts with similar capabilities---.

And what I am saying is---dog fights against similar aircraft era is gone---you may dog fight with a WVR missile---but using guns---next to impossible---.

That slow moving target that posters are talking about---it is the " death trap " laid by the enemy against your aircraft---.

LR sams---BVR missiles---high high accuracy of both systems---it is not the 60's gun battle any more---.

He is trying to explain something to a member, and you jump in with this.......

Hi,

When educated pakistanis talk like that---what to say of the discussion---.

I don't watch any pakistani or indian movies---it has been decades a minimum of 3 1/2 at that---.

So---what it comes to is---what you see in the movies is "truth"---.

 

[ziaulislam]

He is trying to explain something to a member, and you jump in with this.......

To lighten the mood lol..

 

[MIRauf]

Guns will come back in near future, just in a different format ( Energy weapons. ) Today they are liability in A2A as MK has stated.

 

[denel]

Guns will come back in near future, just in a different format ( Energy weapons. ) Today they are liability in A2A as MK has stated.

One analogy i can suggest to level set the discussion; i still have my bayonet that goes on R4/R5; we still have a knife issued as an additional side weapon. Same would be asked why have a knife when we have a rifle plus a sidearm.

 

[SQ8]

Guns will come back in near future, just in a different format ( Energy weapons. ) Today they are liability in A2A as MK has stated.

Yet most US fighters have them, practice with them in A2A and even employ them in complex A2A and A2G scenarios such as red flag. Ill trust the premier airforces of the world and not random internet babas.

 

[Humble Analyst]

He is trying to explain something to a member, and you jump in with this.......[/QUOT
Appreciate you looking out for us all

 

[Keysersoze]

One analogy i can suggest to level set the discussion; i still have my bayonet that goes on R4/R5; we still have a knife issued as an additional side weapon. Same would be asked why have a knife when we have a rifle plus a sidearm.

I think a better analogy would be a pistol. When my rifle jams I go to my pistol. Bayonets are for clearing positions lol

 

[Humble Analyst]

Yet most US fighters have them, practice with them in A2A and even employ them in complex A2A and A2G scenarios such as red flag. Ill trust the premier airforces of the world and not random internet babas.

Exactly in different form maybe not necessarily the rockets or bullets of today but they will stay.

I think a better analogy would be a pistol. When my rifle jams I go to my pistol. Bayonets are for clearing positions lol

You will throw away the pistol because you have a long range rifle?

 

[SQ8]

Exactly in different form maybe not necessarily the rockets or bullets of today but they will stay.

Projectile weapons can’t be equated with energy weapons. The behavior and usage will change.

The common aspect will be usage as a close in weapons system.

 

[Army research]

trust me. i have seen crazy things happen. - two incidents; when daks returning from low level drop offs; one had an RPG-7 go right thru the fuselage - just 2 holes; plane flew back all ok - the other - rpg lodged in the tail.

That must be a cheaply made rpg,
Also albeit being inexperienced my self, i have learend from the memoirs of my late uncle who fought as a major in 1971 , South Kashmir,
A single cannon fire run on advancing or withdrawing enemy troops , especially if they are ill disciplined Indians, has enough physch potential to route them, let alone the fact that it is futile to use expensive Air to ground missile in supply convoy hit missions were cannons are enough to shread trucks,

Hi,

But this scenario is different that what other posters are saying---they are giving the examples of the 60's---and using the gun for dog fights---and dog fights---they are not against slow moving air crafts---but against air crafts with similar capabilities---.

And what I am saying is---dog fights against similar aircraft era is gone---you may dog fight with a WVR missile---but using guns---next to impossible---.

That slow moving target that posters are talking about---it is the " death trap " laid by the enemy against your aircraft---.

LR sams---BVR missiles---high high accuracy of both systems---it is not the 60's gun battle any more---.



Hi,

When educated pakistanis talk like that---what to say of the discussion---.

I don't watch any pakistani or indian movies---it has been decades a minimum of 3 1/2 at that---.

So---what it comes to is---what you see in the movies is "truth"---.

I agree sir , but a multi role aircraft must have a cannon , for cas, if we are rich to have separate strike craft, as of now USA and China only , then the cannon would be a glad omission, as for your point of posters citing the ineffectiveness of 60's and Vietnam BVR , I agree , one look at the technical specifications of the meteor is enough

 

[Khafee]

Appreciate you looking out for us all

Thank You Bro!

Some people on this forum are plain idiots. They don't want t learn, they are happy with their preconceived notions.

To learn, you need an open mind, and carefully read what is written, and ignore by whom. Then analyze it your self.

I'm not a pilot, but flying is my passion, and I have been studying it from the first gulf war. Aircrafts, tactics, and I still consider myself a novice.

This was one book, that opened up my mind, and ultimately made me a nightmare for my opponents.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-un-intended-eye-opener-of-27th-feb.609124/page-14#post-11299427

I have learnt a lot on this forum, and from people I can't stand, and I would suggest to anyone who wants to "learn" to put his ego aside, and not let it become a detrimental factor in learning. Ultimately you benefit from that knowledge, and the more you share it, the more you benefit. Just like money, sitting in a bank it's just paper, spending in the right cause, enriching someone else's life, brings YOU happiness.

 

[denel]

That must be a cheaply made rpg,
Also albeit being inexperienced my self, i have learend from the memoirs of my late uncle who fought as a major in 1971 , South Kashmir,
A single cannon fire run on advancing or withdrawing enemy troops , especially if they are ill disciplined Indians, has enough physch potential to route them, let alone the fact that it is futile to use expensive Air to ground missile in supply convoy hit missions were cannons are enough to shread trucks,

Nope. It was a good old made in Soviet Union - it was sheer luck; it was stuck in the tail. because daks' skin is light aluminium; just went thru.

I think a better analogy would be a pistol. When my rifle jams I go to my pistol. Bayonets are for clearing positions lol

- bayonets have multiple uses in our cases - it comes with a tin opener - that is what we used it for most.

 

[Army research]

Nope. It was a good old made in Soviet Union - it was sheer luck; it was stuck in the tail. because daks' skin is light aluminium; just went thru.

- bayonets have multiple uses in our cases - it comes with a tin opener - that is what we used it for most.

I thought of that , it may have had a hard impact fuze , lucky pilot

 

[MastanKhan]

I think a better analogy would be a pistol. When my rifle jams I go to my pistol. Bayonets are for clearing positions lol

Hi,

And you are correct---you are in close combat---you can use your pistol---as your rifle has jammed.

The long range enemy shooter cannot target you YET---because smart bullet technology that will target just you and not the other guy has not been invented yet---.

But for aircraft---that technology has been invented---. You fell into the trap of a 'dogfight'---the enemy awacs has you targetted---orders the fighter aircraft 40 miles away to launch its missile at you---the missile is smart---it knows the difference between you and your opponent---you are busy lining up your aircraft behind your enemy and KABOOM---

 

[Humble Analyst]

Thank You Bro!

Some people on this forum are plain idiots. They don't want t learn, they are happy with their preconceived notions.

To learn, you need an open mind, and carefully read what is written, and ignore by whom. Then analyze it your self.

I'm not a pilot, but flying is my passion, and I have been studying it from the first gulf war. Aircrafts, tactics, and I still consider myself a novice.

This was one book, that opened up my mind, and ultimately made me a nightmare

Some people on this forum are plain idiots. They don't want t learn, they are happy with their preconceived notions.

To learn, you need an open mind, and carefully read what is written, and ignore by whom. Then analyze it your self.

I'm not a pilot, but flying is my passion, and I have been studying it from the first gulf war. Aircrafts, tactics, and I still consider myself a novice.

This was one book, that opened up my mind, and ultimately made me a nightmare for my opponents.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-un-intended-eye-opener-of-27th-feb.609124/page-14#post-11299427

I have learnt a lot on this forum, and from people I can't stand, and I would suggest to anyone who wants to "learn" to put his ego aside, and not let it become a detrimental factor in learning. Ultimately you benefit from that knowledge, and the more you share it, the more you benefit. Just like money, sitting in a bank it's just paper, spending in the right cause, enriching someone else's life, brings YOU happiness.

Thanks for sharing I have that book and last weekend I took it out to restart reading this Tom Clancy book.
I read Dale Brown as well, however I am not rigid in my thoughts and maybe those who say gun is useless in dog fight have rigid attitude.
Drones are the future and a lot of other changes in air warfare but this will take time.