Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions.

[CriticalThought]

Hi,

Go back to feb 27th---the myht of the gun has been busted---.

No pilots worth his salt & common sense would stay in the dog fight range---. He would rather run away---.

@Khafee --- it would be absolutely stupid of any pilot---even the one who can get into a gun fight to get into a gun fight could also be the target of a BVR missiles---from another enemy aircraft---.

See---gun fight takes 110 % of the pilots attention---he is clueless about anything other than the target---he got target fixation---that is how he will get behind the enemy---he can't hear anything---he can't see anything other than the target and gun lock---which means that he has put the aircraft and his life in jeoardy against a BVR shot from an enemy aircraft 30-40 miles away---.

Even though missile warning launch would be screaming in his ears---he won't hear anything else other than looking for a target lock---.

You kids do not have a broader view of the combat---.

Complete hogwash. If you are caught in a furball with multiple hostiles armed to the teeth, turning tail means assured death from a fifth gen WVR. It is better to stay in the fight and take your chances with the cannon. On the modern battlefield, dumb bullets are still the only thing that cannot be jammed or subverted through spoofing.

 

[Humble Analyst]

Hi,

Go back to feb 27th---the myht of the gun has been busted---.

No pilots worth his salt & common sense would stay in the dog fight range---. He would rather run away---.

@Khafee --- it would be absolutely stupid of any pilot---even the one who can get into a gun fight to get into a gun fight could also be the target of a BVR missiles---from another enemy aircraft---.

See---gun fight takes 110 % of the pilots attention---he is clueless about anything other than the target---he got target fixation---that is how he will get behind the enemy---he can't hear anything---he can't see anything other than the target and gun lock---which means that he has put the aircraft and his life in jeoardy against a BVR shot from an enemy aircraft 30-40 miles away---.

Even though missile warning launch would be screaming in his ears---he won't hear anything else other than looking for a target lock---.

You kids do not have a broader view of the combat---.

Kids during 60s did not have the broader view either and Uncles had, also Pak needs multi role planes and gun is useful there too.

 

[Khafee]

Hi,

Go back to feb 27th---the myht of the gun has been busted---.

No pilots worth his salt & common sense would stay in the dog fight range---. He would rather run away---.

@Khafee --- it would be absolutely stupid of any pilot---even the one who can get into a gun fight to get into a gun fight could also be the target of a BVR missiles---from another enemy aircraft---.

See---gun fight takes 110 % of the pilots attention---he is clueless about anything other than the target---he got target fixation---that is how he will get behind the enemy---he can't hear anything---he can't see anything other than the target and gun lock---which means that he has put the aircraft and his life in jeoardy against a BVR shot from an enemy aircraft 30-40 miles away---.

Even though missile warning launch would be screaming in his ears---he won't hear anything else other than looking for a target lock---.

You kids do not have a broader view of the combat---.

Very well said!!

With advance IFF in place, even if a target is a few meters apart from a friendly, it will identify correctly, and neutralize the bogey. Thats how advance BVR missiles are today.

Kids during 60s did not have the broader view either and Uncles had, also Pak needs multi role planes and gun is useful there too.

Guns come with a weight penalty, and are useful against slower moving / less agile. fixed wing / rotary wing aircrafts, and ground targets.

In WVR they could actually prove to be a liability, giving the pilot a false sense of confidence, while another bogey is painting him.

 

[MastanKhan]

Kids during 60s did not have the broader view either and Uncles had, also Pak needs multi role planes and gun is useful there too.

Hi,

This is air combat we are talking about---ala 21st century---create a scenario and explain how a gun would be used in a dog fight---

 

[LKJ86]

Hi,

This is air combat we are talking about---ala 21st century---create a scenario and explain how a gun would be used in a dog fight---

J-20 has given up the gun.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

This is air combat we are talking about---ala 21st century---create a scenario and explain how a gun would be used in a dog fight---

Hi,

Modern day air combat is totally different than what it was in the 1960's---. At that time it was either one on one or two on two---.

Simply put---

Today---when you are in the hunt guided by your awac---someone else is on the hunt for you guided by their awacs---.

So---you ran out of missiles---and you find an enemy that you want to chase down with your guns---then there is a fair possibility of 90% that that someone is also looking at you thru their electronic eye---possibly guiding an aircraft 40-50 miles away to lock and launch their BVR at you---.

So---under those circumstances---who wants to get into a dog fight and get a bvr up their behind---?

So---anyone who wants to talk about the gun---please create scenario and show how the presence of a gun is a must---.

Don't pull out the examples of the 60's to justify your explanation---.

What that means is that you have no input of your own---you do not have the ability to think and analyze on your own---you don't understand the concept of modern day warfare---you don't understand the lethality of the modern day air to air missiles---.

There is an other guy giving the example of a SPARROW air to air missile and comparing it to the aamram---wasn't that a joke---totally clueless---. @Khafee

 

[Ultima Thule]

Kids during 60s did not have the broader view either and Uncles had, also Pak needs multi role planes and gun is useful there too.

gun is for last resort when all BVR/SRAAM are expired, and also that its a least accurate (unguided) weapons for air superiority jet @Humble Analyst

 

[Humble Analyst]

Hi,

This is air combat we are talking about---ala 21st century---create a scenario and explain how a gun would be used in a dog fight---

In my first post explained it because of shared border, interdiction of bombers when out of missiles. Use your imagination and do not get too pressured of 21st century and being a conformist.
These schools of thoughts come and go gun will stay for quite some time.

 

[denel]

we are thinking guns as being on for AA combat; please dont forget there are always times when you need to engage ground level targets especially - it does happen.

 

[Humble Analyst]

Hi,

Modern day air combat is totally different than what it was in the 1960's---. At that time it was either one on one or two on two---.

Simply put---

Today---when you are in the hunt guided by your awac---someone else is on the hunt for you guided by their awacs---.

So---you ran out of missiles---and you find an enemy that you want to chase down with your guns---then there is a fair possibility of 90% that that someone is also looking at you thru their electronic eye---possibly guiding an aircraft 40-50 miles away to lock and launch their BVR at you---.

So---under those circumstances---who wants to get into a dog fight and get a bvr up their behind---?

So---anyone who wants to talk about the gun---please create scenario and show how the presence of a gun is a must---.

Don't pull out the examples of the 60's to justify your explanation---.

What that means is that you have no input of your own---you do not have the ability to think and analyze on your own---you don't understand the concept of modern day warfare---you don't understand the lethality of the modern day air to air missiles---.

There is an other guy giving the example of a SPARROW air to air missile and comparing it to the aamram---wasn't that a joke---totally clueless---. @Khafee

You are just one track minded and do not understand that all air forces cannot have all aircraft as mission specific. Reading some material about BVR does not give a right to be arrogant, I have read those scenarios of BVR engagements, mostly in fiction books. If you cannot use your imagination then I am not going to bother any further.
I can and have given a few scenarios but you won’t get off your high horses because somehow the idea made it there and cannot get unstuck and blocking your imagination. Therefore you are resorting to negative tactics.
Next you will say short range missiles are use less all combat will be bvr.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

You are getting behind another aircraft---you need to get around 500---700 yards behind the enemy aircraft to use your guns to make the best use of the opportunity---.

To get that close to the target---you are using all your energy---your concentration---your resource---your focus to line up your aircraft to make the shot---.

So---basically---you are in your zone---you have tunnel vision---you can see nothing but the enemy in the pips of your gun sight---you are oblivious to what is happening around

You are just one track minded and do not understand that all air forces cannot have all aircraft as mission specific. Reading some material about BVR does not give a right to be arrogant, I have read those scenarios of BVR engagements, mostly in fiction books. If you cannot use your imagination then I am not going to bother any further.
I can and have given a few scenarios but you won’t get off your high horses because somehow the idea made it there and cannot get unstuck and blocking your imagination. Therefore you are resorting to negative tactics.
Next you will say short range missiles are use less all combat will be bvr.

Hi,

Create scenarios---.

 

[ziaulislam]

Hi,

This is air combat we are talking about---ala 21st century---create a scenario and explain how a gun would be used in a dog fight---

You can watch the sherdil movie

 

[Khafee]

You can watch the sherdil movie

He is trying to explain something to a member, and you jump in with this.......

 

[Army research]

we are thinking guns as being on for AA combat; please dont forget there are always times when you need to engage ground level targets especially - it does happen.

Yup exactly what I thought when I saw people debating it , they tend to forget we have no dedicated strike craft so in war if desperate CAS is needed any aircraft doing CAP would be routed to provide cannon fire ,

 

[denel]

Yup exactly what I thought when I saw people debating it , they tend to forget we have no dedicated strike craft so in war if desperate CAS is needed any aircraft doing CAP would be routed to provide cannon fire ,

trust me. i have seen crazy things happen. - two incidents; when daks returning from low level drop offs; one had an RPG-7 go right thru the fuselage - just 2 holes; plane flew back all ok - the other - rpg lodged in the tail.