PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[Rafi]

It's hard to believe that will happen,unless PLAAF already has something new that is totally different to PL-15 from seeker to range.

Yes China has moved on.......that is why the PL15 has become available...nuff said.

 

[MastanKhan]

It's hard to believe that will happen,unless PLAAF already has something new that is totally different to PL-15 from seeker to range.

Hi,

That is incorrect.

China has realized that without pakistan covering its flank---it is in deep sh-it.

Pakistan will get chinese tier 1 equipment if it needs it and if it wants it and when it wants it---.

 

[SQ8]

Thanx bro.. that 180s latency is ridiculous now but was the best at that time like from fighter to AD.

Anyway, I asked that question bcz of Chinese centric system. I think all th radars are made by the same company so perhaps that is possible such as direct link from AWACS to the AD unit. But remembering Sajjad Haider interview I think that centricity already existed through network centre.

The centricity has been there since project crystal in late 70s. Radar manufacturers are not as relevant in this discussion as are transmission protocols and compatibility. That is why you have common standards such as Link-16(no different than GSM or CDMA as a standard) but the PAF has gone for Link-17 which began developing next to my desk. It is a hybrid of link-16 and Link-22 that allows it to absorb and transmit data from western Link-16 systems (F-16, SAAB and others) while being able to Also interact with the JF-17 and ZDK and now the J-10C. With the JF-17 it has additional features in terms of robustness and those apply elsewhere where custom hardware capabilities able to support this.

 

[Raider 21]

@WebMaster ,

Why is @Deino a member of this forum. He has never had a nice thing to say about pakistan---.On sino def forum he always had insulting things to say about pakistan.


He never missed a chance to insult pakistan's inability to pay for weapons.

This person degraded pakistan every which way and you have him as a senior member.

He just recently insulted and degrade one of our very respected and esteemed member 'Messiach' and YOU DID NOT do anything to top him.

What a shame.

Mastan,

Criticism is not the same as insults. If there is anything in particular that you find insulting, there is a Report tab under posts. You can describe your report there and it would be looked into.

 

[araz]

waz - if we are to take the AL31 as a base figure; it was 1000hrs. If any addition hrs are to be had, it is bonus. But given where the chinese engine tech is right now; i would tamper my expectation to be lower. What i had been hearing is they tend to swap out the engines regularly because of very low MTBO; that means - the big question with PAF opt for the Russian engines simply because it is a proven entity and existing relationship for RD93s?

Thank you very much for pointing this out. Due to secrecy we actually do not know what the MTBO of WS10B vs AL31 is. What are the Chinese doing to ensure they maintain the reliability of the WS10s? Why did PAF continue with the 93s instead of adopting the WS13?(I do not think PAF would have hesitated if reliability and MTBO of WS 13 was equal/better than RD 93s) Does anyone here know what the relative answers are. Sure the Chinese have not bought a single AL engine since 2017 but what is their production numbers vs their local demand?(we have recently seen a lot of J10s standing outside the factory, allegedly waiting engines) Is it a factor why the Chinese allowed AL31 to be fitted into J10? I am merely pointing out some of the complexities in trying to sift through information in the light of secrecy of the order that exists in PLAAF and now in PAF. Heck we still have not had a DIRECT answer that j10s are coming!!!(I am aware of the indirect use of words and have no doubts personally in the matter).
@TP and @Deino are the Chinese buffs of airplanes but I doubt even they can give you answers on what these numbers are. So the question remains is there a possibility of the AL31 in PAF J10s.
On the other hand there are counter questions about why PAF has waited so long if it wanted the J10 with AL31.
The botttom line is no one knows for sure and those that do are not saying. Let us wait and see.
No disrespect to anyone , However these questions are puzzling. I am happy for more knowledgeable members to give me an answer and would happily change my views if the answers are logical.
A

 

[siegecrossbow]

Thank you very much for pointing this out. Due to secrecy we actually do not know what the MTBO of WS10B vs AL31 is. What are the Chinese doing to ensure they maintain the reliability of the WS10s? Why did PAF continue with the 93s instead of adopting the WS13?(I do not think PAF would have hesitated if reliability and MTBO of WS 13 was equal/better than RD 93s) Does anyone here know what the relative answers are. Sure the Chinese have not bought a single AL engine since 2017 but what is their production numbers vs their local demand?(we have recently seen a lot of J10s standing outside the factory, allegedly waiting engines) Is it a factor why the Chinese allowed AL31 to be fitted into J10? I am merely pointing out some of the complexities in trying to sift through information in the light of secrecy of the order that exists in PLAAF and now in PAF. Heck we still have not had a DIRECT answer that j10s are coming!!!(I am aware of the indirect use of words and have no doubts personally in the matter).
@TP and @Deino are the Chinese buffs of airplanes but I doubt even they can give you answers on what these numbers are. So the question remains is there a possibility of the AL31 in PAF J10s.
On the other hand there are counter questions about why PAF has waited so long if it wanted the J10 with AL31.
The botttom line is no one knows for sure and those that do are not saying. Let us wait and see.
No disrespect to anyone , However these questions are puzzling. I am happy for more knowledgeable members to give me an answer and would happily change my views if the answers are logical.
A

That was February 2021 and even back then all of them had their engines. There is no repeat of the engineless J-11B debacle, that much could be assured.

 

[messiach]

Ok.

@messiach claims on PDF:
1) Pakistan is working on indeginous ramjet powered AAM.
2) J10 coming with Al 31 engine
3)Local assembly of AESA radars.
4) Russian support for NGFA.

Except point no.3, others are just unbelievable.

 

[PakShaheen79]

I am looking for another 50 pages at least.

Don't insult Su-35 or AL-31 Turbofans ... make that 150 minimum.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

It's hard to believe that will happen,unless PLAAF already has something new that is totally different to PL-15 from seeker to range.

It maybe a good idea to start thinking Sino-Pak relationship is heading towards a US-UK type special relationship.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Yes China has moved on.......that is why the PL15 has become available...nuff said.

From what I've heard the new missile doesn't improve on the PL-15 too much in terms of range but is much lighter and compact. They could fit six of them into the J-20's main weaponsbay.

 

[SQ8]

Do you feel better now, I know to have Tourette's syndrome is sometimes quite hard.

Forgetting the geriatric ranting truck salesman who is running out of his preparation H - The problem with information sources for people formerly associated with the Pakistani defense circles such as @messiach is that information isn’t always delivered exactly in terms of where a project stands in terms of development nor is it delivered always through the right individual or context. I had highlighted this earlier in another thread as well which really is the exact same process as any researcher. Except the bar for a scholarly publications is different to say a defense forum. All of the following is something you are likely aware of but just repeating it for others.I am not going to disclose opsec compromising data to anyone no longer in the loop or provide complete details.

After all, the Mig-25 was exaggerated until it actually landed in Japan. The M-50 bounder was thought to be a short stubby aircraft until better pictures emerged and the theories surrounding the F-117 and Aurora are numerous.

I oft repeat the following examples because they are both very old and also examples of unbelievable ideas back in their times: back in 1997 the sanctioned and barely fourth gen airforce Pakistan was studying a neurological link simulator for the F-16 which would have bald pilots experiencing physical sensations such as G’s and attitude through stimulation of their nerves - it might have gotten laughing responses right?. at that time I spoke to the person involved with that and can verify the source - but since I am anonymous how do you verify me?

Nothing came of that project but it went to a few dollars spent. The same way a Mirage was modified to get a radar cross section below 1sqm but again - the source was the former head of Kamra who passed away recently. But, I am anonymous and no proof of that project exists at all.

Now if I heard from the brother of a F-16 pilot that they were practicing BVR shots when they were on the F-7PG I would take that with a bit of salt because a the brother doesn’t understand the subject matter as well and what context did the pilot tell his brother regarding it?
Turns out the pilot was referring to simulating the shots but that did not mean the F-7PG has a BVR weapon(but do have a monocle sight whose origins or use is a mystery).

Take it further to a Army Armored corps person mentioning something regarding the Pakistan Navy Supersonic AsHM program - that veracity of the source’s statements keeps getting more and more thin.
My uncle was in the Navy and in mid 2001 he was adamant that the JF-17 had already flown in Pakistan and he saw it himself. I kept arguing with him that it hasn’t since its out of chengdu but he kept saying he has seen it fly himself but wouldn’t mention where - what does one do with that statement? Regardless of his position and reputation besides the relationship I don’t think he was being accurate.

As a more personal example - In my role as PLM I came up with the idea of a low cost game chamger device - built the business case for it, presented it but my VP shot it down due to higher priority projects and lack of funds. Now as I was brainstorming it once while on a field visit with one of my account executives I mentioned the idea to him and he got excited even though I mentioned we are just thinking about it. A few months in one of his customers asked me where that project stood as they were interested even though it was shelved before a single penny was allocated.

So even if a concept was thought up(Ramjet powered AAM , suicide gyrocopter drone or otherwise) and shared with someone - it doesn’t necessarily mean it went beyond the drawing or even creating a folder on some person’s pc stage nor does it mean it doesn’t exist however we cannot verify it.
Definitely more formalized for an organization like the PAF but I still see the same dilution of information happening.

 

[maverick1977]

Any sneak peak pics of Pakistani J10Cs?

 

[araz]

That was February 2021 and even back then all of them had their engines. There is no repeat of the engineless J-11B debacle, that much could be assured.

Fine. But my point still remains in tbat no one knows those figures to be able to give a constrjctive judgement. As soon as those figures come out we will know. I expect the Cbinese to eventually surpass tbe Russians in all aspects of engine manufacturing, but their manufacturi g is-still in its infancy compared to Russia, USA, France etc.
A

 

[Gripen9]

The centricity has been there since project crystal in late 70s. Radar manufacturers are not as relevant in this discussion as are transmission protocols and compatibility. That is why you have common standards such as Link-16(no different than GSM or CDMA as a standard) but the PAF has gone for Link-17 which began developing next to my desk. It is a hybrid of link-16 and Link-22 that allows it to absorb and transmit data from western Link-16 systems (F-16, SAAB and others) while being able to Also interact with the JF-17 and ZDK and now the J-10C. With the JF-17 it has additional features in terms of robustness and those apply elsewhere where custom hardware capabilities able to support this.

Project Crystal was acquisition of MPDRs was it not? Or did it encompass the whole automation of PakADGE or which Hughes & Siemens where a part of?

 

[araz]

It maybe a good idea to start thinking Sino-Pak relationship is heading towards a US-UK type special relationship.

Let us hope it does not turn into a US Canada relationship!. We need to stop relying on others and making an effort to step out of our poverty and into financial stability so we can develop relations as equals.
A