PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[Aesterix]

Not sure what irrelevance you refer to with what subject but your first paragraph talks on rumors and then you go ahead and make a statement worthy of the said 11 year old's youtube channel.
Please go through the multiples and multiples of accounts by both publicly and known individuals on where the Indians came and how far they went along with the geographic distance of Balakot from the border.
Here's a hint - its less than 60km and an aircraft travelling at 380 knots covers 10km in 1 minute. So you could be flying 30 seconds distracted from launching your guided weapon and have breached another countries airspace some 5km without even realizing it.
However, Balakot is very irrelevant to this thread in general.

On the roll tonight
Now I can make a YouTube video on Balakot intrusion after 2 years

 

[SQ8]

On the roll tonight
Now I can make a YouTube video on Balakot intrusion after 2 years

You are free to express yourself based on that platforms contend moderation policies and effectiveness in enforcing them.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

The Indians are just baffled where Pakistan gets the money to buy military weapons from especially the J-10C. Indians believe only they can buy military weapons despite their country is well over half-a-trillion-dollars in external debt with loans also owed to the IMF ($23.3 billion).

Here's a table of the last 4 Federal Budgets of Pakistan under the incumbent PTI Government. X-Rates website used to convert Rupees to dollars as per the budget presented date. Please point out any errors.

Financial Year	Presented	Budget (PKR)	Budget ($)	Source
2021-2022	Friday 11/06/2021	Rs 8.487 trillion	$55 billion	Dawn News
2020-2021	Friday 12/06/2020	Rs 7.2949 trillion	$44 billion	Samaa News
2019-2020	Tuesday 11/06/2019	Rs 7.022 trillion	$46 billion	The News
2018-2019*	Tuesday 18/09/2018	Rs 5.385 trillion	$44 billion	The Tribune Express

*2018-2019 budget was revised from 27 April 2018 to 18 September 2018 after the new PTI Government took over.

 

[Aesterix]

The Indians are just baffled where Pakistan gets the money to buy military weapons from especially the J-10C. Indians believe only they can buy military weapons despite their country is well over half-a-trillion-dollars in external debt with loans also owed to the IMF ($23.3 billion).

Here's a table of the last 4 Federal Budgets of Pakistan under the incumbent PTI Government. X-Rates website used to convert Rupees to dollars as per the budget presented date. Please point out any errors.

Financial Year	Presented	Budget (PKR)	Budget ($)	Source
2021-2022	Friday 11/06/2021	Rs 8.487 trillion	$55 billion	Dawn News
2020-2021	Friday 12/06/2020	Rs 7.2949 trillion	$44 billion	Samaa News
2019-2020	Tuesday 11/06/2019	Rs 7.022 trillion	$46 billion	The News
2018-2019*	Tuesday 18/09/2018	Rs 5.385 trillion	$44 billion	The Tribune Express

*2018-2019 budget was revised from 27 April 2018 to 18 September 2018 after the new PTI Government took over.

Indians and their superiority complex

 

[The Eagle]

Has Pakistan considered producing SD10 by itself? Now that China has opened up the export of PL15, it should agree to sell the production line and technology of SD10. Has Pakistan considered this direction of development?

This one is different. Made in Pakistan. Indeed with help of friends.

What are the odds that Azm will be powered by the same engine as J-10? Unless of course Azm is just a rebranded FC-35

May be, the base and foundation might be the same but a new engine x 2 for AZM NGF.

 

[The Eagle]

Forgetting the geriatric ranting truck salesman who is running out of his preparation H - The problem with information sources for people formerly associated with the Pakistani defense circles such as @messiach is that information isn’t always delivered exactly in terms of where a project stands in terms of development nor is it delivered always through the right individual or context. I had highlighted this earlier in another thread as well which really is the exact same process as any researcher. Except the bar for a scholarly publications is different to say a defense forum. All of the following is something you are likely aware of but just repeating it for others.I am not going to disclose opsec compromising data to anyone no longer in the loop or provide complete details.

After all, the Mig-25 was exaggerated until it actually landed in Japan. The M-50 bounder was thought to be a short stubby aircraft until better pictures emerged and the theories surrounding the F-117 and Aurora are numerous.

I oft repeat the following examples because they are both very old and also examples of unbelievable ideas back in their times: back in 1997 the sanctioned and barely fourth gen airforce Pakistan was studying a neurological link simulator for the F-16 which would have bald pilots experiencing physical sensations such as G’s and attitude through stimulation of their nerves - it might have gotten laughing responses right?. at that time I spoke to the person involved with that and can verify the source - but since I am anonymous how do you verify me?

Nothing came of that project but it went to a few dollars spent. The same way a Mirage was modified to get a radar cross section below 1sqm but again - the source was the former head of Kamra who passed away recently. But, I am anonymous and no proof of that project exists at all.

Now if I heard from the brother of a F-16 pilot that they were practicing BVR shots when they were on the F-7PG I would take that with a bit of salt because a the brother doesn’t understand the subject matter as well and what context did the pilot tell his brother regarding it?
Turns out the pilot was referring to simulating the shots but that did not mean the F-7PG has a BVR weapon(but do have a monocle sight whose origins or use is a mystery).

Take it further to a Army Armored corps person mentioning something regarding the Pakistan Navy Supersonic AsHM program - that veracity of the source’s statements keeps getting more and more thin.
My uncle was in the Navy and in mid 2001 he was adamant that the JF-17 had already flown in Pakistan and he saw it himself. I kept arguing with him that it hasn’t since its out of chengdu but he kept saying he has seen it fly himself but wouldn’t mention where - what does one do with that statement? Regardless of his position and reputation besides the relationship I don’t think he was being accurate.

As a more personal example - In my role as PLM I came up with the idea of a low cost game chamger device - built the business case for it, presented it but my VP shot it down due to higher priority projects and lack of funds. Now as I was brainstorming it once while on a field visit with one of my account executives I mentioned the idea to him and he got excited even though I mentioned we are just thinking about it. A few months in one of his customers asked me where that project stood as they were interested even though it was shelved before a single penny was allocated.

So even if a concept was thought up(Ramjet powered AAM , suicide gyrocopter drone or otherwise) and shared with someone - it doesn’t necessarily mean it went beyond the drawing or even creating a folder on some person’s pc stage nor does it mean it doesn’t exist however we cannot verify it.
Definitely more formalized for an organization like the PAF but I still see the same dilution of information happening.

Allama Sahib strikes again. I am in no position to suggest you to keep cool but you know better particularly when you are provoked. Most of keyboard geniuses are nitpicking here & there, sees a post from someone with credits and then start stretching the idea to any end merely to claim some Brownie points and then question others credentials. I think you have enlightened us all enough already.

 

[SQ8]

Allama Sahib strikes again. I am in no position to suggest you to keep cool but you know better particularly when you are provoked. Most of keyboard geniuses are nitpicking here & there, sees a post from someone with credits and then start stretching the idea to any end merely to claim some Brownie points and then question others credentials. I think you have enlightened us all enough already.

The problem is none of us get paid for this yet everyone is out to shine their nametag. A lot of what gets talked here - I’d say about 90% ranges from fairly inaccurate to plain idiotic if you get any career military person worth their salt to go through it. Yet, people like to maintain they are the most intelligent ones out here only because either it provides meaning to some missing or desired aspect in their lives or they do have a passion for the subject but lack competence in it so they offset that by a facade of false confidence.

Most people including myself will disregard the 1001 factors that go into military(or any other profession that is not related to my own) procurement, integration and usage (or any other tasks) that you only learn from either on the job training and experience. Even consulting firms have their consultants spends days if not weeks shadowing their clients day-in-the-life tasks before offering suggestions. Those that don’t either don’t offer good solutions and have idiotic clients who just like to throw money away.

To end the derailed topic here - I do have a keen interest in automobiles and own an Audi(hence the model username harking back to the Santro days.. how far life has come). I can talk to its performance, handling and day to day experience along with getting some feel if an issue has occurred.My cousin in Pakistan who owns a dealership bought a different older audi but has been a car fanatic all his life showered me with facts on my car which I had no idea of. However when he was describing the handling and performance it was slightly incorrect because he has never driven my model and he has no idea of my particular car and its options along with the environment it is being driven in - altitude, temperatures, road conditions and so on so not only are his knowledge assumptions incorrect but also best guesses even though he may have good input on other aspects.
His favorite car however is the Merc S65 AMG.

My friend is the top Audi salesman in his city, he can sell my car in an instant because he knows all the ins and outs of it and other Audi models. He thinks the S65 is great car too but expensive and difficult to find parts for the engine. However, despite his knowledge of Audis in general when he developed a fault in his S6 he had to get it to his shop and needed the technician to identify the actual fault, drive his car even though he has experience with the model and then certify the fault was rectified before he did his acceptance of it. His mechanic does agree with the part issue with the S65 but suggests the S63 because to him the real world day to day experience is also delivered by the model that costs $60k less. Some part of his opinion is that of a mechanic and some part of that is experience and preference since he has a customs shop on the side as well. Each have their own knowledge, day to day experience with the platform and input on the overall subject of automobiles.

Now if another cousin of mine who has only worked in banks and while does have a passive interest in cars hasn’t been able to either experience or own any of these particular models but starts passing authoritative statements on them expects me to pay any attention to him or respect his opinion.. well he has another thing coming. Especially since he doesn’t write my checks nor has any capacity nor capability to exert even an ounce of influence in my life - so I could try to spend a little time convincing him otherwise but at the end I have more pressing and much more rewarding things in my life to focus on instead of arguing with someone trying have a win on a subject just for the sake of winning.

Lets replace the cars with aircraft or tanks or submarines and PDF.. and tell me what is different?

 

[PanzerKiel]

To end the derailed topic here - I do have a keen interest in automobiles and own an Audi
His favorite car however is the Merc S65 AMG.

You are someone one must ought to be friend with.

 

[SQ8]

You are someone one must ought to be friend with.

I use automobiles because they are a very common subject anyone can relate to.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Yeah I lived through it. My father was part of the MPDR evaluation, then commanded one of the CRC wings. I still have a "Project Crystal" coffee mug somewhere But usually when people talked about it, it referred more to the MPDR acquisition versus PakADGE upgrade including tipsies.

We have that same mug at our home too

 

[Goritoes]

Since we are on discussing Nawaz Shareef's engineering capabilities, the following video would explain his role in Pakistan's nuclear program

On topic of J-10 and AL-31, it does not make any logical sense !

Mian sahab ne Atom Bomb banaya ho ya nai lakin is ko aur buhat saare Pakistaniyo ko Chuity@ zaroor banaya hai

 

[TigerOfMysore]

I've seen some hesitations on this and other thread about purchasing Chinese weapons, whether it's J-10C or Z-10. So, I will try to put you guys at ease about this. There has been huge technological advances in the Chinese military industrial complex in the past 20 years. But for the sake of this thread, I will just use fighter jet as an example. Back 20 years ago, China was still iterating through J-8II variants as its best aircraft. Just last month, they flew the first twin-seated 5th generation aircraft in the world.

If you look at Rafale's development from its first flight in 1991 until now and compare that to J-10 from 1998 until now. There has been a greater improvement in J-10 over a shorter timeframe. Just take a look at how long it took the Europeans to put AESA radars on the Eurocanards. China did not even have a modern mechanically scanned radar on a fighter jet until early 2000. The reason is pretty simple. China has put far more investment in its military industrial complex in the past 20 years. The gap in that investment will keep increasing as the Chinese economy keep growing.

As PAF receives its JF-17 and J-10C, it will also see their combat capabilities go up more quickly than IAF's Rafale. We may not see changes from external appearance, but you can make a lot of upgrades with software upgrades and also with newer generation electronic equipment. One good example is J-20 two seaters. From the outside, it looks like they just added a second seat, but this project was actually delayed by a couple of years as they are trying to incorporate the latest technological upgrades. And supposedly these changes will allow them to achieve a level of situation awareness that's not even possible with the original J-20. That's a lot of where future upgrades for these fighter jets come from. How good are their situation awareness? How good are they at keeping themselves hidden from different opposing fighters? I'd bet over the next 10 to 15 years, you will see greater improvements in this area in J-10C than Rafale as it leverages some of the gains from J-20 program.

When JF-17 first came out, PAF did not feel comfortable with Chinese avionics. How many people have the same hesitations now with JF-17 Block 3? I'm sure everyone on this board and with PAF has seen how much improvement have been made in block 3 compared to the original version. Have faith that you will see the same improvement in J-10 or Z-10 or whatever else Pakistan might be interested in the future.

There has been a view that Chinese product is behind the west and Russia. Chinese training is also behind. In fact, I find that's something Indian Internet warriors (and maybe even more serious people inside Indian military) hold on to in order to justify their belief that all the stuff China is building is overhyped. I don't have a problem with it. Even I'm surprised by some of the improvements they have made. It's hard to keep track of all the improvements they've made. I will use China and Russia as an example. You may have noticed that PLAAF and RuAF have not had any joint exercises even though China has annual exercises with PAF. The main reason from Chinese side is that they don't want to embarrass the Russians (who have helped them a lot to get to this point). When they got su-35, they could not believe how much of a gap existed in the radar/avionics between their own J-16 and Su-35. They asked the Russians repeatedly and that really was the best that the Russians could offer. You know Su-30MKIs are in trouble when the most realistic future upgrade plan is to use the same radar/EW suites that Su-35 uses. While J-10C and JF-17 block 3 are smaller, they will be able to have much better situation awareness than MKIs through this newer generation of electronics. Rafale is a different story, but IAF has a limited number of them. The biggest mistake India made was getting themselves into the MKI project and than into Su-57. These 2 Russian projects have squandered all the financial advantage they have over PAF.

There has also been a desire on this thread for flankers. I think flankers do have a pretty big advantage over J-10/JF-17 by being just a lot larger. They basically fitted the largest and most power consuming radar/avionics they can put on J-10 and JF-17. But obviously, there are realistic space limitations on J-10 compared to flankers. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure China would never export flankers due to its Russian relationship. It actually would be of help for PAF I think. J-16D recently entered into service with PLAAF. I think it's going to be a true force multiplier. I don't think IAF has a dedicated EW aircraft. If PAF can work with China to get a dedicated one (whether based on like a two seat version of J-10 or something larger), it would give PAF quite an advantage here.

Well written. Btw we should be expecting F18s in our neighborhood within the next 5 years. That is a dynamic we need to be planning for. Just a matter of time.

Why don’t you suggest one? I think there is nothing wrong with the color scheme.

Truckart!!!

 

[baqai]

To end the derailed topic here - I do have a keen interest in automobiles and own an Audi

to cool things a little bit ... your statement somehow reminded me of this

 

[Goritoes]

Forgetting the geriatric ranting truck salesman who is running out of his preparation H - The problem with information sources for people formerly associated with the Pakistani defense circles such as @messiach is that information isn’t always delivered exactly in terms of where a project stands in terms of development nor is it delivered always through the right individual or context. I had highlighted this earlier in another thread as well which really is the exact same process as any researcher. Except the bar for a scholarly publications is different to say a defense forum. All of the following is something you are likely aware of but just repeating it for others.I am not going to disclose opsec compromising data to anyone no longer in the loop or provide complete details.

After all, the Mig-25 was exaggerated until it actually landed in Japan. The M-50 bounder was thought to be a short stubby aircraft until better pictures emerged and the theories surrounding the F-117 and Aurora are numerous.

I oft repeat the following examples because they are both very old and also examples of unbelievable ideas back in their times: back in 1997 the sanctioned and barely fourth gen airforce Pakistan was studying a neurological link simulator for the F-16 which would have bald pilots experiencing physical sensations such as G’s and attitude through stimulation of their nerves - it might have gotten laughing responses right?. at that time I spoke to the person involved with that and can verify the source - but since I am anonymous how do you verify me?

Nothing came of that project but it went to a few dollars spent. The same way a Mirage was modified to get a radar cross section below 1sqm but again - the source was the former head of Kamra who passed away recently. But, I am anonymous and no proof of that project exists at all.

Now if I heard from the brother of a F-16 pilot that they were practicing BVR shots when they were on the F-7PG I would take that with a bit of salt because a the brother doesn’t understand the subject matter as well and what context did the pilot tell his brother regarding it?
Turns out the pilot was referring to simulating the shots but that did not mean the F-7PG has a BVR weapon(but do have a monocle sight whose origins or use is a mystery).

Take it further to a Army Armored corps person mentioning something regarding the Pakistan Navy Supersonic AsHM program - that veracity of the source’s statements keeps getting more and more thin.
My uncle was in the Navy and in mid 2001 he was adamant that the JF-17 had already flown in Pakistan and he saw it himself. I kept arguing with him that it hasn’t since its out of chengdu but he kept saying he has seen it fly himself but wouldn’t mention where - what does one do with that statement? Regardless of his position and reputation besides the relationship I don’t think he was being accurate.

As a more personal example - In my role as PLM I came up with the idea of a low cost game chamger device - built the business case for it, presented it but my VP shot it down due to higher priority projects and lack of funds. Now as I was brainstorming it once while on a field visit with one of my account executives I mentioned the idea to him and he got excited even though I mentioned we are just thinking about it. A few months in one of his customers asked me where that project stood as they were interested even though it was shelved before a single penny was allocated.

So even if a concept was thought up(Ramjet powered AAM , suicide gyrocopter drone or otherwise) and shared with someone - it doesn’t necessarily mean it went beyond the drawing or even creating a folder on some person’s pc stage nor does it mean it doesn’t exist however we cannot verify it.
Definitely more formalized for an organization like the PAF but I still see the same dilution of information happening.

I don't think you and others (PDF reliable people) has to defend their news or share sources to anyone like Mastan or me because we are nobody's and we are not here to argue and fight over who's source is bigger and more accurate, projects starts and closed, some progresses and some never leave the planning table, but anyone in that planning room or brainstorming session can claim to have heard or " work " on a certain project that never sees the day light. Take America as example, how many Projects and their reports were declassified, and I can bet my Green Card that they won't make 10% of what American researchers are working on. PDF people ask for source and when they don't like it they don't just walk away they start getting personal with the person just sharing something he may or may not have heard from someone.

@Deino unacceptance towards certain projects that rumored in PDF is justifiable because Pakistan as a poor country does not make a decision out of the blue, because their funds and resources are limited they often take years making a decision and even then many projects in final stages have been cancelled, some because of sudden fluctuation of economy, natural disaster (2005 Earthquake) and some because of Sanctions (T-129) but here, we as nobody's expect first hand intel from the Horse mouth, as in such information will see the light of the day without the permission of the Top brass.

Every thread, even if it starts with a rumor ended up getting ruined by people fighting over disagreements, technical aspects , getting personal or just d!ck measuring over their sources, where did that time go for PDF when disagreements were handled professionally ? where did that time go when discussions were purely on technical terms and even that was under extreme respect for the poster, Now everyone is hyper nationalist and super crazy about their own country. Chinese (not all) don't want to hear anything against or any critic regarding their country's technological advancements or products, Europeans don't want to accept anyone else's progress over certain fields. PDF is losing its charm and attraction for even someone like me who is here to read and learn without even understanding much of the technical details, but now most of the pages are filled with personal attacks or disrespectful posts.

 

[arjunk]

Hindutva sentiments amongst a section of Indians

BJP won a landslide victory in the elections. Hindutva is the majority in India.