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PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

PL-15 used by PLAAF is not 300km! where is that rumor from?
Not much of a rumor, but based on an article... Obviously can't back up the authenticity of its content.
GlobalSecurity.org

Also, those are numbers mentioned on PL-15's Wiki-page, but can't trust that site either.

Note: Plus there isn't any mention of it on AVIC or CATIC's official website...

41c598e6-2115-11ec-83d0-b8338c7f9150_image_hires_024706.jpeg
 
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I'm thinking more along the lines of PAF skipping fifth gen all together and co-developing sixth generation laser totting unmanned space capable fighter with the CAC.

To be frank, I think this is the future of fighter jets. In generation 7 or 8 I expect them to travel in the atmosphere as well as out in space (like to the moon or any other mother ship in the space). Like the one we seen in independence day : Resurgence movie.

Edit : its name is H-8 global defender.

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Not much of a rumor, but based on an article... Obviously can't back up the authenticity of its content.
GlobalSecurity.org

Also, those are numbers mentioned on PL-15's Wiki-page, but can't trust that site either.

Note: Plus there isn't any mention of it on AVIC or CATIC's official website...

41c598e6-2115-11ec-83d0-b8338c7f9150_image_hires_024706.jpeg

If I am not totally wrong on this, PLAAF PL-15 has range around 180KM or 200KM and PAF will be acquiring PLAAF inventory PL-15 not the one PL-15E with 145+- range. Secondly, BVVRAAM PL-21 or PL-XXX the AWACS killer was discussed with 300 KM or around that range.
 
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Not much of a rumor, but based on an article... Obviously can't back up the authenticity of its content.
GlobalSecurity.org

Also, those are numbers mentioned on PL-15's Wiki-page, but can't trust that site either.

Note: Plus there isn't any mention of it on AVIC or CATIC's official website...

41c598e6-2115-11ec-83d0-b8338c7f9150_image_hires_024706.jpeg

Global Security has some very outdated information as well and others are from unreputable sources too.

PL-15 is roughly 150km range as usual NATO range calculation method I am guessing. This is proven by the PL-15E export version having declared range of 145km or so. Of course all serious military nations understate their missile range and USA and China definitely both tend to understate because overstating is suicidal. Russia does a lot of overstating due to needing to sell many.

So my guess is PL-15E maybe has 170km or so range who knows maybe 200km absolute maximum depending on the country that buys PL-15E. We should remember that PL-15E is just a name holder and not actual missile. Depending on sensitivity and likelihood of war of the purchasing country and who the war would be against, PL-15 sold may change. Half is given internal systems and also half can be controlled by software to reduce or enhance range like a speed limiter on cars in some countries for example.

I do not believe PL-15 is 300km as Global Security suggests it might be. They are themselves either guessing or based on information that is guessing or misquoted and misunderstood. Possibly confused it with other PL-xx projects that have been revealed or not.
 
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PL-15 used by PLAAF is not 300km! where is that rumor from?

PL-xx range being 300km is believable. It is a long range missile seen on J-16. It is one of many, many, many Chinese long range air to air missile projects that have also looked at extending range of PL-12 and PL-15.

PL-15 itself as photographed in public is no 300km range missile! this rumor from this forum is repeated by members who are either still not aware of it or choosing to believe PL-15 is 300km ranged.

View attachment 807593

This unknown PL-xx photographed from around 2016 or earlier is NOT PL-15.

For true long ranged missiles both USA and China have looked at ways to extend the BVR range against fighters through many techniques. Chinese first looked at multi missile carrying rockets that can be carried by H-6 or even heavy aircraft like Flanker and JH-7A but no idea if that was pursued. Probably not. USA then also explored this field and I think they prefer loyal wingman style method instead as well. Basically drone missile carrier is more effective at the job than rocket that shoots or drops already developed BVR missiles. It seems the way both airforces want to be extending the BVR range is through loyal wingman using AI command to optimize all the movement and positioning then of course both have high manufacturing capacity for such aircraft and so is preferred. As a side from that it is only these types of long range missiles that are much less effective against fighter targets at very long ranges. Drones carry some network of electronic attack too don't forget which is why that method is superior.

This is China's loyal wingman first exhibited as model indicating program existence back in 2006.

View attachment 807594

View attachment 807595

You want real long range BVR?

This is long range BVR in currently most effective form.

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Do you guys notice something??


This aircraft is flying right now. The only twin seater 5th generation and not for ground attack or electronic warfare (at least not the current intention although I'm guessing they want some sort of J-20D as well).

View attachment 807604
I think they got it from Google (Wiki) as its operational range is stated to be 200-300KM
 
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china doesnt have old AL31 to spare. it hasnt ordered any in years and older jets still use it so any still on hand would be used as replacement engines for those older jets.

i also doubt new j-10c would come with al31 and the only way for pakistan to get the j10c with al31 is if they took delivery of in service plaaf stock of used j10c, but this is unlikely.

j10c isnt a collaboration project and china isnt going to spend millions restarting the j10c/al031 line just for pakistan when it has just switched over to ws10.

of course we'll have to wait til the planes are in PAF service to be sure.

What is wrong with people here?
Just because you have access to the net doesn't mean you waffle off anything you like.

$^%&$&*#(#)(#(*$&$&%$^$&$&#*#($&*
Then you go and waffle a whole post on no new al31 when we know that China stopped buying these....ugh...the frustration.
 
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In addition to local assembly of AESA, J10 comes with AL-31 ToT. We are looking towards a greater russian input in our NGFA program.

I am quoting this post as a reference (not directed to @messiach ) to say that members totally in shock or surprise or even denying such with plain face without putting much in reply, should understand that not to take everything for word to word on Internet. There are always some sort of open ended statements which may be the very reason that leads to so much speculations or even call it a rumor.

Secondly, newbies totally unaware of previous discussions on different threads regarding cooperation & NGF/AZM buildup will have to go through all the pages and understand the backdrop of such a statement.

It was said before and discussed that PAC/PAF is working closely with friendly countries & the new friendship is formed as well. That is infact not easy to sum up in two lines but just look at new regional geopolitics & strategical changes. Pakistan-China-Russia & Turkiye are already if not may be, cooperating closely and have read the situation before hand about future eventualities. It was said that PAC will be working closely with partners/friends to uplift defence programs. There are lot of things happening behind closed doors.

From in-house AESA production to modern AAM of our own with the help of friends; to AZM and tech absorption are well worked out. We might not be very useful for these sort of developments given the so much lag in past and the secrecy around defence projects but it doesn't mean that nothing is happening.

Whether this ToT means a total transfer or maintenance but on other hand, why not to pay attention as what really derived from AL-31 power plant for China? As I said before and I will repeat myself in humble opinion that IF, J-10C is not the only equipment/capability coming to Pakistan. The same statement exist on this thread way before above quoted post and it was merely my observation and how I see certain things. I am taking full responsibility of these words because this is not some sort of insider news or a leak but what I really observed throughout such kind of acquisition processes from the past and an upgraded mindset with all the hard-work for modernization of Defence Production procedure and advance ourselves towards self reliance. I also mentioned before that look at how China advanced in many of defence production fields with the help of Russia but that all came after procurement and years of experience of those platforms.

We will not buy anything to merely catch a fish. The more of emphasis is on learn to how to catch the fish which includes everything from experience, knowledge, tactics to manufacturing & producing the relevant equipment. May be this is not about exact AL-31 engine and I wouldn't comment further as whatever I may know is purely for own knowledge & satisfaction to believe that we are excelling well and far ahead of an adversary can really think about.

Just look at Thunder program in it all self. Then we announced to go for 5th Gen under AZM. Look at Milgem program off the shelf purchase & Jinnah Class built in house - Look at Type 054-AP for PN and producing few locally. Just look at Augusta 90B upgradation - Look at PN acquiring Hangoor Class Subs and preparing to have in-house production as well. Why we merely disclosed the working on hypersonic CM by PN? Didn't we discuss that PAF will be having our own BVR and I say that it might be something like between PL-12 to PL-XX in future. What you think that those busy bees at AWC are just sitting idle? There is lot of progress being made in different areas and if told openly, I am sure many Pakistanis will deny those in offending manners given our mindset of past by believing that Pakistan ain't producing nothing or not even trying to self reliance in view of political myths.

Above are few examples in short for some people here about how the development may take place. I am not claiming anything in regard to AL-31 ToT but one should not limit him/herself merely to words being said in above quoted post and keep asking for proof or any sense which is more of self issue. If you are looking at an NGF after 15 years, that means you will have to stepping up the game already. It may sound ridiculous by instant reading but there might be few things not said openly.

That argument of large wingspan of Block-III is valid compare to Block-II wingspan. Then speaking of changes in rear fuselage may sound false but none of us have any clear image & all side view to compare as to how these changes taking place. For example, just look at sensor placements & then inner changes which will not be visible for anyone as of yet or unless some official speaks so. So conclusively for me, not everything is taken merely for the words about it. Keep your mind open and exhaust all the possibilities before a final say and even resorting ourselves to belittle someone having far more credit on subject than most of us. Agree to disagree and counter the arguments without questioning the personality.
What is wrong with people here?
Just because you have access to the net doesn't mean you waffle off anything you like.

$%&%&$&$&$*#*#(#)(*$*%&%&%&%*$*$*$*
Then you go and waffle a whole post on no new al31 when we know that China stopped buying these....ugh...the frustration.

You can either agree or disagree but you shouldn't be offending like that. I am really sorry but ethics & behaviour be maintained on the Forum. No one is forced to remain present here and no one is shoving any information down the throat of others. Be respectful and that's all I mean to say.
 
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To be frank, I think this is the future of fighter jets. In generation 7 or 8 I expect them to travel in the atmosphere as well as out in space (like to the moon or any other mother ship in the space). Like the one we seen in independence day : Resurgence movie.

Edit : its name is H-8 global defender.

View attachment 807607

I was joking.
 
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I was joking.

I know. That's why I said " I expect " generation 7 or 8 ( not JF-17 or J-10 or other 5th generation jets) to be able to go up in space too. Like really up. Mig-29 once managed to travel upto 23 km height. Its a technology of 80's which come under generation 3.5++ or 4 generation. I can expect generation 7 or 8 to atleast pass 50 km height mark . No ?
 
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Lets celebrate 100 Pages of Sheikh Rasheed & his deliberate spill that has led to so much interest* in so many parts of the World.

*enough for Maj. Gubar Arya to dedicate an entire show & questioning as to where Pakistan is getting the money to pay for these new toys (not limiting the conversation to just the J-10C).

nJy1W5YR_400x400.png
 
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Lets celebrate 100 Pages of Sheikh Rasheed & his deliberate spill that has led to so much interest* in so many parts of the World.

*enough for Maj. Gubar Arya to dedicate an entire show & questioning as to where Pakistan is getting the money to pay for these new toys (not limiting the conversation to just the J-10C).

nJy1W5YR_400x400.png

The butthurt is fantastic.
 
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J-10Cs are not coming with AL-31. China waited until WS-10B is mature on J-10Cs before exporting them. There is no need for local assembly of AESA radar when JF-17 project already has AESA radar that I'm sure PAC can request to locally assemble. Russia's 5th generation project is a disaster right now. Why would anyone want to join that?

The biggest mistake India made were participating in the Su-30MKI project and then Su-57. They ended giving a lot of money to fund Russia development for years and got no 5th generation aircraft and an improved su-27 that took years to mature and is now way behind other 4.5 generation aircraft in electronics. Of course, it gave armchair QBs on Internet as lot of time to boast about what great weapons their trusted Russian friend was giving them (that China didn't have access to) and how they were going to destroy China. In reality, it was a big waste of their time for a fleet that is still struggling to achieve availability on it.

Don't get obsessed with stuff like PL-15E vs PL-15. No one here knows how capable the version PL-15 version is or what version PAF is getting for sure. It doesn't really matter. The published range on these things are meaningless. PAF will have to do its own testing to see what is a realistic NEZ on it and then utilize that in the battle field. It's more useful for combat readiness to have a reliable and available aircraft in service as soon as possible. That allows you to train with it, develop tactics and discover/improve its capability.

I'm sure that's not as fun as telling Indians my radar has 400 more T/R modules and sees 10 km further out than yours, so I will win. That kind of arguments is meaningless. You have something that will be in your service with basically similar size, payload and generation of electronics. It's up to PAF now to bring it up to the best combat capability and work with CAC to improve it. Not only will PLAAF help PAF with getting trained on J-10Cs, but PAF will also help CAC/PLAAF with knowledge and ideas from its own experience. That's how this kind of stuff works. China is delivering J-10Cs on a very tight schedule due to its close relationship with Pakistan at the cost of its own production slots. This is not about making money off PAF as a couple of people alluded to up the thread. This is about helping a friend out and then helping each other out.

No, the regular WS-10B has 2only“ 132 kN
Deino, did you see some recent source that pointed to this? I admit that I haven't tracked things closely in the recent years. Back 5 years ago, I remember a lot of rumbling coming out that the first major improved variant for J-10/flankers coming out was going to have 12% greater thrust than 12.5t of the first iteration of production WS-10. Which would point to 14t or about 137kN. Based on the time frame, the first batch of J-10Cs that received WS-10B should be getting that variant. The version they built for J-20 may or may not have greater thrust. Unfortunately, with the death of CJDBY, it's hard to find a good place to read up on this.
 
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That is correct, the PL-15 is obviously far better OR superior to its Export Variant, the PL-15E in range.

Range (reported):
PL-15 - 200 to 300km (in use by the PLAAF)
PL-15E - 145km

image.jpg

@Salza - so there is no reason why PAF would want to go for the "E" variant in the not-so-distant future.
The PL15 cannot have 300 km, and the PL2X has 300+km. But PL2X is obviously used to hunt large aircraft, I don't think it can hunt Rafale.
And for the time being, only J16 can carry PL2X, and there is no photo to prove that J10C can use PL2X.
 
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