PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[Rafi]

I remember one of the senior members at the PakDef forum (now defunct) mentioning something like, that US officials had once queried Pakistani officials about Pakistan sharing F-16 technology with the Chinese.

The Pakistanis swore with their lives that no such thing happened. Then US officials showed them photographs of Chinese personnel inspecting the F-16s. And, that was that.

LoL as if the yanks aren't doing crazy underhand shit all the time, "just take it bitch" like I sometimes say.

 

[Windjammer]

PAF’s acquisition of J10-C

S.M. Hali
07TH JAN, 2022. 08:04 PM

File photo

Pakistan’s interior minister, the loquacious Sheikh Rasheed Ahmed, re- cently informed the media that PAF is acquiring the Chinese J-10C “Fire- bird” fighter, which is slated to arrive in time to take part in the March 23 Pakistan Day parade. The confirmation should have come from the Ministry of Defence, but the Interior Minister chose to make the announcement, link- ing the fresh acquisition as a counter to India’s recently inducted Rafale.
The declaration set the Indian media’s wheels into motion, spinning tales of speculation, disinformation and denigration of Pakistan with its usual xenophobia. Some elements of Pakistani media too indulged in half-baked theories of praise along with criticism, depending on which side of the fence they were sitting.
Hence, it is imperative to provide a ratio- nale for Pakistan’s procurement of the Chinese fighters, put to rest the conjectures and present a comparison of the two weapons systems.

Quantitatively, Indian Air Force (IAF) has always enjoyed an edge over Pakistan Air Force (PAF) as the former is the fourth-larg- est air force in the world after the US, China, and Russia with around 1,70,000 personnel and 1,500 aircraft. However, the IAF currently has a ratio of 1.5 pilots per aircraft as against 2,5 pilots per aircraft for the PAF. India’s squadron numbers have also dwindled which is at its lowest point since the 1970s with just 28 fighter squadrons operational as against the authorised 42. Despite IAF’s clear advantage over PAF in terms of both quality and quantity espe- cially after the addition of Rafale jets, PAF hasshown time and time again that despite a small fleet of jets and limited defence budget, they are no way inferior to the Indian Air Force. PAF offsets its adversary’s numerical and qual- itative advantage through better weapon sys- tems maintenance, higher sortie generation and hard training.
Pakistan’s decision to opt for the Chinese J-10C is not a knee-jerk reaction to the in- duction of Rafales in IAF. In fact, on 31 Jan- uary 2012, the Indian Ministry of Defence announced that Dassault Rafale had won the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMR- CA) competition to supply the Indian Air Force with 126 aircraft, along with an option for 63 additional aircraft.
The first 18 aircraft were to be supplied by Dassault Aviation fully built and the remain- ing 108 aircraft were to be manufactured un- der license by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) with a transfer of technology from Das- sault. Later the deal fell through due to cost inflation and disagreements on warranty for aircraft produced by HAL. India wanted Das- sault to ensure the quality of aircraft produced by HAL, but Dassault refused to do so.
The agreement was revived in 2015 with In- dia opting to acquire 36 Rafale multirole fight- er aircraft for a price estimated at €7.87 ($8.8) billion. The contract was tainted with accusa- tions of kickbacks, but that is another story.
Pakistan’s quest for acquiring the J-10 also commenced in 2015. Its first choice would have been the upgrade of its F-16 fleet to Block 70/72, which met snags of financing. PAF’ purely indigenous efforts were initiated in July 2017, under Project Azm to develop a fifth-generation heavy fighter aircraft pow- ered by twin engines, having stealth features. This ambitious project also comprises the development of medium-altitude, long-en- durance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) capable of operating at an altitude window of 10,000 to 30,000 feet for extended durations of time, typically 24 to 48 hours, new munitions, and multiple other projects.
The caveat is that the next-generation air- craft under Project Azm is not going to make its flight by the end of this decade, thus the PAF had been considering the induction of a new system due to the geopolitical and geostra- tegic situations of the region to fill the gap.
Another disinformation being spread by the Indian media is that the JF-17 Thunder Block iii is a failure and unable to match the Rafale, thus the decision to induct the J-10C. This couldn’t be further from the truth. JF-17 Thunder has been tried and tested as a light- weight fighter aircraft, which held its own during Operation Swift Retort on 27 February 2019, in which India got a bloody nose caus- ing the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi to lament that if only his air force had theRafale, it could have taught Pakistan a lesson.
The capabilities of the JF-17iii are quite im- pressive, considering the price-tag and avail- ability. In terms of avionics and weapons load,AESA/IRST/Datalink/BVR/HMD+Off-bore- sight WVR missiles, and a reasonably decent EW suite all make for a good Gen 4+ fighter platform. Its range can be enhanced as in the Block 2’s in-flight refueling capability, while the reduction in weight as well on the Block 3, due to composite materials will also in-
crease agility. PAF considers the JF-17 as its mainstay aircraft as it is going to replace the ageing F-7s. The JF-17 has become a mature platform with the Block III variant in the as- sembling lines.
The J-10C, are expected to replace the PAF’s 87 delta-wing Mirage III ROSE fight- ers, which remain quite old despite integra- tion of modern avionics, satellite navigation and Italian Grifo radar.
Now for a comparison of the Rafale and the J-10C: in size, Rafale is 15.27 metres in length and has a wingspan of 10.80 m. The J-10C, which is an upgraded version of the J-10, measures 15.49 metre in length and has a wingspan of 9.75 m. In terms of thrust, weight and range, the J-10C has an empty weight of 8,850 kg against Rafale’s empty weight of 9,850 kg. The Rafale is heavier by one tonne when empty but has a far greater thrust coming out of its twin engines.
The Rafale has a 20 percent greater thrust for just 11 percent higher weight than the J-10C. This means for the same weight of fuel and weapons, Rafale is going to have a thrust- to-weight ratio far better than the J-10C which means better agility and higher energy which is the deciding factor within visual range (WVR) combat. Moreover, the Rafale has a range of 3,700 km as compared to the 1,850 km that the J-10C offers. One aspect where the Rafale trails behind the J-10C is speed; while the Rafale has a maximum speed of Mach 1 (1,912 km/h), the J-10C is blazing ahead at Mach 2.2 (2,400 km/h). The J10C also in- corporates thrust vectoring on its engine for enhanced manoeuvrability, which the Rafale lacks. The J10C also has the upper hand in speed, climb rate, and operational altitude over Rafale. Although Rafale is a twin-engine fighter, its engines’ thrust is similar to J10C. J10C’s 19.3 tons maximum take-off weight is much better than both F-16 and JF-17, however short of Rafale’s 24.5. The larger the take- off weight, the larger payload and fuel an air- craft can carry. Thus, J10C can perform close to Rafale, giving it an upper hand against the current aircraft in the PAF fleet.
In terms of air-to-air missiles, the Rafale is equipped with the Meteor BVR missile, which has a range of 100 kilometers plus on the other hand, J10C is coming with the PL-15 air-to-air missiles, which have a range of 200 kilometers plus. Thus, the J-10C is considered one of the most capable single-engine fighters in the world and is comparable to Rafale in size, aerodynamic characteristics, aviation, and weapon systems.

The writer is a former PAF Group Captain and an author

 

[Windjammer]

For those wondering about the number of hard points on a J-10......here all 11 stations visible and loaded.

 

[KaiserX]

J10C fits in perfectly with the PAF's mix of F16MLU/JF17B3. All F7s will be retired by the end of 2022. Around 40-50 new AESA capable jets expected to be inducted into the PAF this year enough for 2 new squadrons.

Mirage ROSEs will remain for dedicated tactical/anti ship strikes.

 

[Gripen9]

J10C fits in perfectly with the PAF's mix of F16MLU/JF17B3. All F7s will be retired by the end of 2022. Around 40-50 new AESA capable jets expected to be inducted into the PAF this year enough for 2 new squadrons.

Mirage ROSEs will remain for dedicated tactical/anti ship strikes.

From what I have been told, No 8 sqn is no longer tasked with Anti Ship role and the exocets have been transferred back to PN.
No 2 Sqn is now primary Anti Ship sqn with C-802s.

 

[arjunk]

It however remains to be seen whether they are A/B/C/S models

J-10CE

 

[cssniper]

A lot of the Chinese technology leap has come from
1.getting access to technology through various third party channels
2. reverse engineering it to understand how it works and build knowledge
3. Build upon that knowledge to create better and improved versions initially and then indigenous designs

These points are truths.
It just may not happened specifically to "the F-16's fuselage" and J-10.(And this really did not matter in the discussion)

In my opinion,these things always happened in human history and any countries, it's the easy way to catch up with developing techniques.
USSR's Tu-4 is an exact copy of US's B-29 bomber,and surely we know US got many German techniques after World War II.(By the way I've heard rumors that USSR got its Nuclear tech from US,though highly unlikel)
As for China, it's industralising and modernizing its armament , the western world don't like that. China won't give up any necessary ways to achieve it.

That's a little off topic, so back to the J-10's deal.
Rafael no dout has a better design for a multirole fighter, given the experience that French have in aviation industry.
But J-10c is design for air combat supremacy, with the newest radar and misssles,I think it will defeat Rafael in equal fight.

Well,it is a little fun that if 611institute really got aid from Dassault according to some article,then Rafael vs J-10c is a classic type story about teacher and students.
Here's another joke to share, got it from chinese internet.Pakistan will become "the second country" which get both F-16 and J-10 in service, guess who's first haha.

 

[Ali_Baba]

The certain Iron brother was rumored to have sent copies of CATIA CAD designing software as well that it had gotten from DCN as part of A90B ToT.

Please dont spread rubbish ...

 

[KaiserX]

From what I have been told, No 8 sqn is no longer tasked with Anti Ship role and the exocets have been transferred back to PN.
No 2 Sqn is now primary Anti Ship sqn with C-802s.

Exocets cant be tossed around. The air launched versions cant be modified. PAF specifically modified a squadrons of Mirages for anti ship missions. The PAF will use both Mirages/JF17s for anti shipping operations. PN will provide Orions/Propellers/Helicopters for its air arm.

Neither the PAF nor the PN will carry out a long range anti shipping mission for which a SU35 would be needed. Pakistans coastline is not too far. Can easily be covered by existing platforms let alone land based launchers.

 

[Ali_Baba]

For those wondering about the number of hard points on a J-10......here all 11 stations visible and loaded.

View attachment 806707

For the 11 hardpoints, we still need to know if the last 2 hardpoints carrying dumb bombs in that picture can host smart weapons with a databus to them or not... That is the million dollar question right now ( well - to me at least - but i dont have a million dollars if anyone asks ... ).

The front 2 hardpoints under the chin are smart - as they can carry jammers and laserr designation pods - the question is really for the last 2 which are just infront of the engine on the underside of the fuselage..

 

[tphuang]

I've seen some hesitations on this and other thread about purchasing Chinese weapons, whether it's J-10C or Z-10. So, I will try to put you guys at ease about this. There has been huge technological advances in the Chinese military industrial complex in the past 20 years. But for the sake of this thread, I will just use fighter jet as an example. Back 20 years ago, China was still iterating through J-8II variants as its best aircraft. Just last month, they flew the first twin-seated 5th generation aircraft in the world.

If you look at Rafale's development from its first flight in 1991 until now and compare that to J-10 from 1998 until now. There has been a greater improvement in J-10 over a shorter timeframe. Just take a look at how long it took the Europeans to put AESA radars on the Eurocanards. China did not even have a modern mechanically scanned radar on a fighter jet until early 2000. The reason is pretty simple. China has put far more investment in its military industrial complex in the past 20 years. The gap in that investment will keep increasing as the Chinese economy keep growing.

As PAF receives its JF-17 and J-10C, it will also see their combat capabilities go up more quickly than IAF's Rafale. We may not see changes from external appearance, but you can make a lot of upgrades with software upgrades and also with newer generation electronic equipment. One good example is J-20 two seaters. From the outside, it looks like they just added a second seat, but this project was actually delayed by a couple of years as they are trying to incorporate the latest technological upgrades. And supposedly these changes will allow them to achieve a level of situation awareness that's not even possible with the original J-20. That's a lot of where future upgrades for these fighter jets come from. How good are their situation awareness? How good are they at keeping themselves hidden from different opposing fighters? I'd bet over the next 10 to 15 years, you will see greater improvements in this area in J-10C than Rafale as it leverages some of the gains from J-20 program.

When JF-17 first came out, PAF did not feel comfortable with Chinese avionics. How many people have the same hesitations now with JF-17 Block 3? I'm sure everyone on this board and with PAF has seen how much improvement have been made in block 3 compared to the original version. Have faith that you will see the same improvement in J-10 or Z-10 or whatever else Pakistan might be interested in the future.

There has been a view that Chinese product is behind the west and Russia. Chinese training is also behind. In fact, I find that's something Indian Internet warriors (and maybe even more serious people inside Indian military) hold on to in order to justify their belief that all the stuff China is building is overhyped. I don't have a problem with it. Even I'm surprised by some of the improvements they have made. It's hard to keep track of all the improvements they've made. I will use China and Russia as an example. You may have noticed that PLAAF and RuAF have not had any joint exercises even though China has annual exercises with PAF. The main reason from Chinese side is that they don't want to embarrass the Russians (who have helped them a lot to get to this point). When they got su-35, they could not believe how much of a gap existed in the radar/avionics between their own J-16 and Su-35. They asked the Russians repeatedly and that really was the best that the Russians could offer. You know Su-30MKIs are in trouble when the most realistic future upgrade plan is to use the same radar/EW suites that Su-35 uses. While J-10C and JF-17 block 3 are smaller, they will be able to have much better situation awareness than MKIs through this newer generation of electronics. Rafale is a different story, but IAF has a limited number of them. The biggest mistake India made was getting themselves into the MKI project and than into Su-57. These 2 Russian projects have squandered all the financial advantage they have over PAF.

There has also been a desire on this thread for flankers. I think flankers do have a pretty big advantage over J-10/JF-17 by being just a lot larger. They basically fitted the largest and most power consuming radar/avionics they can put on J-10 and JF-17. But obviously, there are realistic space limitations on J-10 compared to flankers. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure China would never export flankers due to its Russian relationship. It actually would be of help for PAF I think. J-16D recently entered into service with PLAAF. I think it's going to be a true force multiplier. I don't think IAF has a dedicated EW aircraft. If PAF can work with China to get a dedicated one (whether based on like a two seat version of J-10 or something larger), it would give PAF quite an advantage here.

 

[tphuang]

The J-10C, are expected to replace the PAF’s 87 delta-wing Mirage III ROSE fight- ers, which remain quite old despite integra- tion of modern avionics, satellite navigation and Italian Grifo radar.
Now for a comparison of the Rafale and the J-10C: in size, Rafale is 15.27 metres in length and has a wingspan of 10.80 m. The J-10C, which is an upgraded version of the J-10, measures 15.49 metre in length and has a wingspan of 9.75 m. In terms of thrust, weight and range, the J-10C has an empty weight of 8,850 kg against Rafale’s empty weight of 9,850 kg. The Rafale is heavier by one tonne when empty but has a far greater thrust coming out of its twin engines.
The Rafale has a 20 percent greater thrust for just 11 percent higher weight than the J-10C. This means for the same weight of fuel and weapons, Rafale is going to have a thrust- to-weight ratio far better than the J-10C which means better agility and higher energy which is the deciding factor within visual range (WVR) combat. Moreover, the Rafale has a range of 3,700 km as compared to the 1,850 km that the J-10C offers. One aspect where the Rafale trails behind the J-10C is speed; while the Rafale has a maximum speed of Mach 1 (1,912 km/h), the J-10C is blazing ahead at Mach 2.2 (2,400 km/h). The J10C also in- corporates thrust vectoring on its engine for enhanced manoeuvrability, which the Rafale lacks. The J10C also has the upper hand in speed, climb rate, and operational altitude over Rafale. Although Rafale is a twin-engine fighter, its engines’ thrust is similar to J10C. J10C’s 19.3 tons maximum take-off weight is much better than both F-16 and JF-17, however short of Rafale’s 24.5. The larger the take- off weight, the larger payload and fuel an air- craft can carry. Thus, J10C can perform close to Rafale, giving it an upper hand against the current aircraft in the PAF fleet.
In terms of air-to-air missiles, the Rafale is equipped with the Meteor BVR missile, which has a range of 100 kilometers plus on the other hand, J10C is coming with the PL-15 air-to-air missiles, which have a range of 200 kilometers plus. Thus, the J-10C is considered one of the most capable single-engine fighters in the world and is comparable to Rafale in size, aerodynamic characteristics, aviation, and weapon systems.

The writer is a former PAF Group Captain and an author

I have to dispute this part. J-10C will be use probably a 14t engine rather than the original 12.5 AL-31F. As far as I can tell, Rafale is still using 2 M88s which produces about 15t in wet thrust. I don't think Rafale will have a noticeable advantage over J-10C in T/W ratio. Now, it may turn better than J-10C for other reasons, but the engine part is not true.

Where I think Rafale really excels in is stealth. It's probably the most stealthy 4th generation aircraft if you just look at it. On top of that, it seems to me that the French really worked hard to lower its emissions, so that it's radar scanning is harder to pick up by opposing passive receivers. On the flip side, J-10C probably will have a more powerful radar (it has a lot more T/R modules) doing scanning. So, it will be interesting to see how that works out. Again, detection through active or passive means can all be improved over time through training and software upgrades.

 

[Super Falcon]

Paf should opt new colour scheme thunder and falcon schemes sucks

 

[JawadKKhan]

Here's another joke to share, got it from chinese internet.Pakistan will become "the second country" which get both F-16 and J-10 in service, guess who's first haha.

: ) Well that could be the same theory which people were discussing here OR it could be referring to island of Taiwan.. As Taiwan also comes under One country policy of China.

So, yeah Pakistan will become only second country to have these 2 birds

 

[Bossman]

Paf should opt new colour scheme thunder and falcon schemes sucks

Why don’t you suggest one? I think there is nothing wrong with the color scheme.