PAF AND IAF 4th gen Aircraft Losses, shocking comparison

[Windjammer]

Actually one was friendly fire kill too(f16)
PAF lost 5 in first 5 years due to active war situation, did multiple kills

Once the war was over the 4th gen loss is extremely rare...

THUS in last 25 years only 2 f16s and 1 or some say 2 jf17 were lost..
1 of the jf17 during testing

India lost more 4th gen in a year than what pakistan lost in 25 years!

At least 1 F-16 loss was unavoidable as the aircraft hit a wild boar during take off run while 2 F-16s and i JF-17 was lost due to pilot disorientation while on night sorties.

 

[ziaulislam]

In total there were 10 afghan/sovet air to air kills. This was no "training" but full fledge war....after 1991 the sanctions was disadvantage for PAF and should have caused more losses ...

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

Two wrong data (In both Mirage 2000 incident of Oct 2004 & Su-30 incident of Apr 2012 the jets were fully repaired back into service).
So correct figure is 40.

Now India accquired a total of 470 4th gen jets as of Nov 2019 ( 266 Su-30s, 125 MiG-29, 59 Mirage 200, 20 Tejas) which means the crash rate is only 8.5% of fleet strength.

Pakistan accquired around 85 F-16s & 112 JF-17 (total 197) so crash rate is 5.6% of fleet strength.
A very minor difference considering that US made planes have a much lower crash rate than Russian ones.

Hahahaha funny Endian

 

[Signalian]

That includes all types (and aircrew losses includes even helo), here is list of your link you gave:

Wrong.
Su-30 airworthiness crossed 70% whereas IAF MiG 29 always had more than 75% airworthiness & even IN MiG 29K is at 68% since 2018.

It is actually PAF F-16 fleet which had quite low flight hours in the 90s due to US sanctions forcing PAF to reduce flying hours to save spares.

I have read most of your posts in 4 pages. The way you are justifying IAF crashes, the image being shown is that IAF planes HAVE to crash either way. You justified IAF has more aircrafts, then IAF has more flying hours, then Russian origin planes crash more than US origin planes.

Reading posts as a neutral observer, all i see is that IAF puts aircraft in air, it will crash !

 

[GriffinsRule]

Does the Indian attrition list include Mig-23s as well or just Mig-21/27s?

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

If the Indians had the majority of their pilots from the Muslims outcomes would have been different....

 

[GriffinsRule]

If the Indians had the majority of their pilots from the Muslims outcomes would have been different....

Probably not because their ground crew would still be shit, as would the quality of their locally manufactured parts.

 

[Pak-Canuck]

IAF Mig-21/23/27 and Jaguar Fleet since 2012 = 325

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Indian_military_aircraft

so with 32 planes lost rate is = 9.8%

PAF Mirage and F-7 fleet since 2012 = 260

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Pakistan_Air_Force_aircraft

with 25 planes lost (though if you can provide source I would appreciate it) rate is = 9.6%

so no, IAF gen 3 loss rate is not lower it is the same or in fact very marginally higher, that too if we take 2012 as the benchmark and not earlier.

IAF practice missions are far more than PAF practixe +strike missions.
Also this IAF is in track to get 280,000 flying hours which is far far more than PAF


PAF has no more than 120 mirages (6 sqdns and a few in CCS)
Also in between 2012-19 PAF F7 fleet strength fell from 100 to 70.

So here is a COMPLETE list of all aviation accidents in Pakistan,

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dblist.php?Country=AP&sorteer=datekey_desc&page=2

which list 18 (NOT the 25 you quoted) F-7 and Mirages lost since 2012, and we have at least 157 Mirage III/V and 178 F-7P's and PG/P/MP's as of January 2013 as per THIS SOURCE which is actually trying to Paf in a negative light

https://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/Pakistan-Air-Force-Crumbling-Away-1-13-2013.asp


which would bring the Pak gen 3 aircraft attrition rate down to 18 / 335 = 5.4% compared to the IAF's 9.8%, contrary to what I said before when I said the gen 3 aircraft loss was about equal. Should have quit while you were ahead

 

[GriffinsRule]

So here is a COMPLETE list of all aviation accidents in Pakistan,

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dblist.php?Country=AP&sorteer=datekey_desc&page=2

which list 18 (NOT the 25 you quoted) F-7 and Mirages lost since 2012, and we have at least 157 Mirage III/V and 178 F-7P's and PG/P/MP's as of January 2013 as per THIS SOURCE which is actually trying to Paf in a negative light

https://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/Pakistan-Air-Force-Crumbling-Away-1-13-2013.asp


which would bring the Pak gen 3 aircraft attrition rate down to 18 / 335 = 5.4% compared to the IAF's 9.8%, contrary to what I said before when I said the gen 3 aircraft loss was about equal. Should have quit while you were ahead

Its not a complete list of PAF accidents. 25 is more or less correct

 

[Tejas Spokesman]

Actually one was friendly fire kill too(f16)
PAF lost 5 in first 5 years due to active war situation, did multiple kills

Once the war was over the 4th gen loss is extremely rare...

THUS in last 25 years only 2 f16s and 1 or some say 2 jf17 were lost..
1 of the jf17 during testing

India lost more 4th gen in a year than what pakistan lost in 25 years!

A few interception is not war.
Only 10 shootdowns in 6-7 years cannot be classifed as war.
You cannot exclude years as you wiah just because there were a number of crashes.

So here is a COMPLETE list of all aviation accidents in Pakistan,

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dblist.php?Country=AP&sorteer=datekey_desc&page=2

which list 18 (NOT the 25 you quoted) F-7 and Mirages lost since 2012, and we have at least 157 Mirage III/V and 178 F-7P's and PG/P/MP's as of January 2013 as per THIS SOURCE which is actually trying to Paf in a negative light

Lol.
Why are you skipping page 1 of your link. If you include page 1 the number is 25.

Strategy page is not a reliable source.
PAF has 6.5 sqdns of Mirages so max number in fleet is 120-125 since a squadron has on average 18 jets


Also in 2019 PAF has 75 F-7s (45 F-7PG, 9 FT-7PG and 20 odd F-7P/FT-7P).

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Its 11 crashes not 3.

9 f16 +2 jf17

Indiot, its 8 F-16 not 9. Are you trying to include 1 imaginary F-16 kill even though all abhinonedone missiles have been recovered and not even a single russian defence sources confirm F-16 kill?

I never said PAF does not reveal crashes.
I said PAF never reveals availability rates of any aircraft to public

PAF F-16s have 90+% availability rate since almost entire F-16 squadron was up in air providing escort to PAF strike package during 28th feb PAF raid on Indian territory.
IAF could not even manage to airborne more then 2 su-30 in entire northern sector, they were scared to scramble more fighters to prevent further losses.

Only idiot here is you

but u are an indiot

Mirages are comparble to Jaguars and MiG21s are comparable to F104 and F7s all three have very high crash rates.

Wrong, PAF Mirages are comparable to Mig-21 Bison and PAF F-104 were not dog fighters and were only used for reconnaissance and deep strike mostly. they avoided dog fights most of the time. so dont know how you came to conclusion that 1950s technology is comparable to 2000s Mig-21 technology which is packed with Isreali French and Russian technologies. F-104 are comparable with 1960s Mig-21 which had better radar, better gun site and AAM but they were all destroyed on ground by F-86 sabers.

A few interception is not war.
Only 10 shootdowns in 6-7 years cannot be classifed as war.
You cannot exclude years as you wiah just because there were a number of crashes.

PAF was in content air skirmish with Afghan and soviet air force. Mostly they were lock on and would escape back to enemy territory and only those were engaged if wreckage would fall inside pakistan. So yes, PAF had to stay up in air alot more then peace time.

 

[Thorough Pro]

When common sense doesn't help, statistics however weird, is your friend.

Two wrong data (In both Mirage 2000 incident of Oct 2004 & Su-30 incident of Apr 2012 the jets were fully repaired back into service).
So correct figure is 40.

Now India accquired a total of 470 4th gen jets as of Nov 2019 ( 266 Su-30s, 125 MiG-29, 59 Mirage 200, 20 Tejas) which means the crash rate is only 8.5% of fleet strength.

Pakistan accquired around 85 F-16s & 112 JF-17 (total 197) so crash rate is 5.6% of fleet strength.
A very minor difference considering that US made planes have a much lower crash rate than Russian ones.

 

[airomerix]

Wrong.
Su-30 airworthiness crossed 70% whereas IAF MiG 29 always had more than 75% airworthiness & even IN MiG 29K is at 68% since 2018.

AHQ New Delhi and our Air Intelligence, Islamabad both have an agreed-upon figure for Su's serviceability. That is 62%. From where the heck did you get your figure?

A couple of years ago your govt rep's rounded it off to 65%. And you're rounding it off to 70%. Shame.

It is actually PAF F-16 fleet which had quite low flight hours in the 90s due to US sanctions forcing PAF to reduce flying hours to save spares.

On the contrary, many of our pilots achieved 1000-2000 flight hours during early 2000's. Which means The 90's were spent pretty much in the air. Also we barely had 32 active airframes back then. Each squadron had a pilot strength of 50+.

If you dont know your numbers. STFU.

 

[Lasit Borphukan]

all calm down...

we are all comparing number of attrition without considering relevant operations matrix. For all PAF lovers here are the number to consider -

1. Annual flight hours for PFA fighter pilot is ~180-190 Hrs vs IAF Pilot is 290-310 Hrs
2. Number of annual sorties by IAF is 4-5 times greater than PAF - due to scale and spectrum of ops

Just for your reference, in the last IAF exercise in early part of this year, IAF managed more than 8000 sorties in western and eastern theater in a fortnight is which is greater than what PAF managed in 6 months

 

[Myth_buster_1]

all calm down...

we are all comparing number of attrition without considering relevant operations matrix. For all PAF lovers here are the number to consider -

1. Annual flight hours for PFA fighter pilot is ~180-190 Hrs vs IAF Pilot is 290-310 Hrs
2. Number of annual sorties by IAF is 4-5 times greater than PAF - due to scale and spectrum of ops

Just for your reference, in the last IAF exercise in early part of this year, IAF managed more than 8000 sorties in western and eastern theater in a fortnight is which is greater than what PAF managed in 6 months

if their was an award for indiot you would be at first place.

even USAF pilots clock 210 220 hours/year
https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/...-17-hours-per-month-but-its-still-not-enough/
and this indiot is claiming 300 hour/ year for cow urine air force pilot.

their source for this claim by Su-30 pilot who made this absurd claim 10 years ago when half of Su-30 fleet were grounded most of the time. lol
maybe IAF top of the top pilots who make up 1% of IAF fighter pilots clock 300 hours per year but average IAF pilot will be lucky to clock 100 hours/ year since half of IAF fleet is grounded.