Oliver Hazard Class Frigate Acquisition by Pakistan

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well once we will have the ships in hand we will see how well they perform , and what will need to get added etc

I mean it is a addition no doubt an extra ship but I am sure it can be improved


I agree such a large vessel can't just roam about on its own , that is why I was wondering can we at least guard it with some missle boats we have or the missile boats we have can only fire anti ship missiles and nothing for air defence?

It would be have been fantastic if we had got all the air defences on boats intact and been given a choice to upgrade the air defence with something modern

Now I will use an example , sorta like not navy related example but makes a valid point

But see the thing is , in WW2 , when germans had their special tanks , their 1 tank was able to take out 100-900 tanks and the difference was that the german tanks could aim while in full speed mode (I saw this on the german tanks ww2 documentary)
so if we compare the scenario ..... and also the germans aim/accuracy was far greater then allied tanks

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Knispel

Just to state the obvious , 195 kills by 1 ace tank commander

Reference:
Michael Wittmann
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Wittmann about 100-200 kills by one tank

Having 1 Brand new Ship - is worth having 10 old ships in my book
if the old ships lets say fire their canoons 5-10 times the new ones can fire it 10-20 times and that resulots into greater damage to enemy boats

New ones can also remain in stealth mode and sneak in on unexpected older ship

Similarly , if we also go back

Ottoman vs British-French-Russian fleet at the Battle of Navarino
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Navarino 20 October 1827

Here Ottomans lost badly becasue their naval fleet although big in numbers were ill equioped with lesser cannons

Strength
Allied forces (Winners)
10 battleships
10 frigates
4 brigs, 2 schooners

Ottoman (Losers)
3 battleships
17 frigates
30 corvettes
28 brigs, 5 schooners, 5/6 fireships

quality > quantity


So in naval battles , small differences make a big difference
and having second rate air defence is pretty much suicidal
again its my opion based on what happend in past wars ....

Thank you for the note on the computer onboard updates on OHP if that is the case its a good news , hope we are not running on systems from 70's in side the boat

It is a wonderful ship ... but ... you know what they say , the item made just recently will outperform something made 4 years ago, here we are dealing with 30 years gap

Which can be overcome with trained crew and modifications and improvements but I think its absolutely no match for any of the latest frigates coming out in modern navies of world

Gap fillers are great but we are not a nation that can afford gap fillers we need to buy item once for 20-30 years ... and spend good money on it

 

[owais.usmani]

Perrys for Pakistan: USS McInerney & the Alamgir Class


On Feb 19/10, the US DSCA announced Pakistan’s official request to buy the Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigate USS McInerney [FFG 8], plus refurbishment and anti-submarine improvements. That deal is now a contract, and is reportedly the first step in an 8-ship purchase.

In 2009, USS McInerney trialed the naval MQ-8B Fire Scout helicopter UAV in counter-drug operations around the Caribbean, and became the first navy ship to use unmanned helicopters in a drug bust. It’s one member of a popular but declining ship class…

Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigates still serve with the US Navy, but American ships have had their bow-mounted Mk.13 launch systems for SM-1 Standard air defense and RGM-84 Harpoon anti-ship missiles removed. Those changes leave just torpedoes and a 76mm naval gun for offense, and the 20mm Phalanx CIWS as the ships’ main defensive weapon.

Further reports indicate that McInerney’s refurbishments are aimed at improving its anti-submarine capability only, making the term “guided missile frigate” something of a misnomer. Unless Pakistan undertakes additional approved work, its Alamgir Class will be anti-submarine frigates only, their weaponry outclassed by Pakistan’s new Chinese F-22P/ Zulfiquar Class multi-role frigates, and even its older British Type 21/ Tariq Class ships. On the other hand, the 8 planned ships will be filling an important coastal patrol and anti-submarine role, at a bargain price.

Perry class frigates also serve in the navies of Australia, Egypt, Poland, Spain, Taiwan, and Turkey. Most of those ships retain their original missile launching systems, and Australia’s ships have just finished an expensive set of deep upgrades.

 

[Nutuk]

The battle of Navarino is a perfect showcase why it is so important to have a strong navy, since this battle was the begining of the end of the Ottoman empire.

Strong navy is what we (Pakistan and Turkey) pursue but the reality is that both of us lack sufficient funds to realise it. So both of us unvoluntarily have to fall back on 2nd hand naval ships.

Turkey is trying to change this with indigenous ships and I wish Pakistan jumps on the same bandwagon to take profit of the Turkish efforts, cause Pakistan deserves better. It is so important to have a strong navy and also very important to gather the knowhow to build your own. On battle tanks, aircraft, missiles etc. Pakistan is doing fine, don't neglect the navy.

 

[Jigs]

The battle of Navarino is a perfect showcase why it is so important to have a strong navy, since this battle was the begining of the end of the Ottoman empire.

Strong navy is what we (Pakistan and Turkey) pursue but the reality is that both of us lack sufficient funds to realise it. So both of us unvoluntarily have to fall back on 2nd hand naval ships.

Turkey is trying to change this with indigenous ships and I wish Pakistan jumps on the same bandwagon to take profit of the Turkish efforts, cause Pakistan deserves better. It is so important to have a strong navy and also very important to gather the knowhow to build your own. On battle tanks, aircraft, missiles etc. Pakistan is doing fine, don't neglect the navy.

The issue the Turkish navy has always had was more quantity then quality. Our navy is massive for the region but a good part of it is old and i am not sure where modernization efforts have gone recently. Not sure when the MK-41s will go on the OHP and the Meko 200 Track IIAs. As we advance ship building capability that should hopefully solve that issue but that will take considerable time.

 

[Patriot]

The battle of Navarino is a perfect showcase why it is so important to have a strong navy, since this battle was the begining of the end of the Ottoman empire.

Strong navy is what we (Pakistan and Turkey) pursue but the reality is that both of us lack sufficient funds to realise it. So both of us unvoluntarily have to fall back on 2nd hand naval ships.

Turkey is trying to change this with indigenous ships and I wish Pakistan jumps on the same bandwagon to take profit of the Turkish efforts, cause Pakistan deserves better. It is so important to have a strong navy and also very important to gather the knowhow to build your own. On battle tanks, aircraft, missiles etc. Pakistan is doing fine, don't neglect the navy.

Well Pakistan is more venerable via land routes hence we focus mainly on Army and Air Force.Our key strategic locations are no where near shores but land route wise we're very venerable having said that as our GDP Grows the money will be spent wisely on navy.We need subs subs and subs to inflict maximum damage to enemy ships.I was very sad when U214 deal fell through .I hope Turkey also develop huge arms industry like Israel so Pakistanis have less headache wrt to sanctions etc as we know for a fact that Turks will never even think about harming Pakistan.I hope Turkey invests more money in R&D.

 

[Kinetic]

Good informative posts Penguin. Thanks.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Perrys for Pakistan: USS McInerney & the Alamgir Class


On Feb 19/10, the US DSCA announced Pakistan’s official request to buy the Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigate USS McInerney [FFG 8], plus refurbishment and anti-submarine improvements. That deal is now a contract, and is reportedly the first step in an 8-ship purchase.

In 2009, USS McInerney trialed the naval MQ-8B Fire Scout helicopter UAV in counter-drug operations around the Caribbean, and became the first navy ship to use unmanned helicopters in a drug bust. It’s one member of a popular but declining ship class…

Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigates still serve with the US Navy, but American ships have had their bow-mounted Mk.13 launch systems for SM-1 Standard air defense and RGM-84 Harpoon anti-ship missiles removed. Those changes leave just torpedoes and a 76mm naval gun for offense, and the 20mm Phalanx CIWS as the ships’ main defensive weapon.

Further reports indicate that McInerney’s refurbishments are aimed at improving its anti-submarine capability only, making the term “guided missile frigate” something of a misnomer. Unless Pakistan undertakes additional approved work, its Alamgir Class will be anti-submarine frigates only, their weaponry outclassed by Pakistan’s new Chinese F-22P/ Zulfiquar Class multi-role frigates, and even its older British Type 21/ Tariq Class ships. On the other hand, the 8 planned ships will be filling an important coastal patrol and anti-submarine role, at a bargain price.

Perry class frigates also serve in the navies of Australia, Egypt, Poland, Spain, Taiwan, and Turkey. Most of those ships retain their original missile launching systems, and Australia’s ships have just finished an expensive set of deep upgrades.

First of all this news is old and misleading.
Unfortunately defenceindustrydaily chose to report "rumors" instead of conducting its own research.
On the other hand Jane's news have recently reported refurbishment may include additional racks for Harpoons and SAMs or MK13 may be reinstated back to its original status.

The amazon class frigate is no multirole, 3 are AAW role and 3 are AShM role.

F-22P is a low end tech Frigate and even non USN FFGs are still much more capable then F-22P in all aspects.

 

[razgriz19]

First of all this news is old and misleading.
Unfortunately defenceindustrydaily chose to report "rumors" instead of conducting its own research.
On the other hand Jane's news have recently reported refurbishment may include additional racks for Harpoons and SAMs or MK13 may be reinstated back to its original status.

The amazon class frigate is no multirole, 3 are AAW role and 3 are AShM role.

F-22P is a low end tech Frigate and even non USN FFGs are still much more capable then F-22P in all aspects.

well to me, f-22p with 8-cell SAM, 8 anti-ship missle, submarine rockets, 2 ciws, torpedos, sub warfare heli SOUNDS AWESOME compare to a ship which is extremly oversized compare to the amount of weapon it carries. uss mcinerny, with a main gun, 1 ciws (is it even on it???), couple of torpedos and 1-2 heli, is not good at all compare to f-22p!
atleast in my opinion!

 

[fatman17]

US frigate sold to Pakistan undergoes overhaul at BAE Systems

The newly commissioned Pakistani Navy FFG 7-class frigate PNS Alamgir (F 260) has begun a four-month overhaul at BAE Systems' Southeast Shipyards in Jacksonville, Florida. Prime contractor VSE Corporation told Jane's on 8 September that the former US Navy (USN) frigate USS McInerney (FFG 8) was handed over to the Pakistan Navy during a 'hot transfer' ceremony at the nearby Mayport Naval Station, Florida, on 31 August.

[first posted to Jane's Navy International - The global magazine of naval operations and technology - 09 September 2010]

 

[Myth_buster_1]

well to me, f-22p with 8-cell SAM, 8 anti-ship missle, submarine rockets, 2 ciws, torpedos, sub warfare heli SOUNDS AWESOME compare to a ship which is extremly oversized compare to the amount of weapon it carries. uss mcinerny, with a main gun, 1 ciws (is it even on it???), couple of torpedos and 1-2 heli, is not good at all compare to f-22p!
atleast in my opinion!

Did you understand my bold part?
For example RAN FFGs are carrying 32 SM-2 Block IIIA (which is superior to any Chinese medium-long range SAM) 8 Harpoons, 32 ESSM, and 3x2 Torpedos. Now compare that with your F-22P laughing stocks.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

US frigate sold to Pakistan undergoes overhaul at BAE Systems

The newly commissioned Pakistani Navy FFG 7-class frigate PNS Alamgir (F 260) has begun a four-month overhaul at BAE Systems' Southeast Shipyards in Jacksonville, Florida. Prime contractor VSE Corporation told Jane's on 8 September that the former US Navy (USN) frigate USS McInerney (FFG 8) was handed over to the Pakistan Navy during a 'hot transfer' ceremony at the nearby Mayport Naval Station, Florida, on 31 August.

[first posted to Jane's Navy International - The global magazine of naval operations and technology - 09 September 2010]

good news.

IMO this frigate is most likely to get structural upgrade at BAE Jacksonville, Florida to give this ship another 15 good years.
Bae Systems Southeast Shipyard Inc Home

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

15 years would be wonderful , addition just waiting for it to be arriving in local shipyard , and some nice awesome new pics

 

[Penguin]

well to me, f-22p with 8-cell SAM, 8 anti-ship missle, submarine rockets, 2 ciws, torpedos, sub warfare heli SOUNDS AWESOME compare to a ship which is extremly oversized compare to the amount of weapon it carries. uss mcinerny, with a main gun, 1 ciws (is it even on it???), couple of torpedos and 1-2 heli, is not good at all compare to f-22p!
atleast in my opinion!

The presence of weaponry does not equate the ability to employ it effectively.

There are FACs (missile boats) under 1000tons that have SSM and SAM and CIWS and torpedoes. They are not ever as capable as larger vessels, e.g. due to different seakeeping ability, e.g. due to being smaller and lower to the water which mean lower placed sensors and hence lesser detection ranges for air and surface threads.

 

[Penguin]

But see the thing is , in WW2 , when germans had their special tanks , their 1 tank was able to take out 100-900 tanks and the difference was that the german tanks could aim while in full speed mode (I saw this on the german tanks ww2 documentary)
so if we compare the scenario ..... and also the germans aim/accuracy was far greater then allied tanks

Reference: Kurt Knispel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just to state the obvious , 195 kills by 1 ace tank commander

Reference:
Michael Wittmann
Michael Wittmann - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia about 100-200 kills by one tank

You are confusing the person Wittman (who as tank commander achieved 100-200 tank kills) with the machine (various tanks). Wittman lost individual tanks he commanded. On average the best German WW2 tanks (Panther, Tiger I, Tiger II, Jagdpather) would take down 3-4 Shermans or 6-7 T-34 at long range before being knocked off themselves at close range, after being outflanked by the more numerous and nimble (if poorer armed and armored opponents). The number 100-900 is rediculous (considering that a german armored division averaged between 135 and 209 tanks, with the amount of tanks decreasing over the course of the war, they each should have been able to hold immense numbers of opposing forces, which obviously they didn't)

Having 1 Brand new Ship - is worth having 10 old ships in my book
if the old ships lets say fire their canoons 5-10 times the new ones can fire it 10-20 times and that resulots into greater damage to enemy boats

New ones can also remain in stealth mode and sneak in on unexpected older ship

A brand new F22P is not significantly stealthier than an FFG7. As for armaments, see discussion elsewhere.

Similarly , if we also go back

Ottoman vs British-French-Russian fleet at the Battle of Navarino
Battle of Navarino - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 20 October 1827

Here Ottomans lost badly becasue their naval fleet although big in numbers were ill equioped with lesser cannons

Strength
Allied forces (Winners)
10 battleships
10 frigates
4 brigs, 2 schooners

Ottoman (Losers)
3 battleships
17 frigates
30 corvettes
28 brigs, 5 schooners, 5/6 fireships

quality > quantity

So in naval battles , small differences make a big difference
and having second rate air defence is pretty much suicidal
again its my opion based on what happend in past wars ....

These days, the information infrastructure for detection and targeting is far more important than weaponry. I think you willl find that the OHP is well equipped in that respect, compared to other PN ships in use.

Thank you for the note on the computer onboard updates on OHP if that is the case its a good news , hope we are not running on systems from 70's in side the boat

This OHP came out of active US service this year. Do you think she could operate effectively with other - newer - USN ships if she still had the all equipment she was first delivered with?

It is a wonderful ship ... but ... you know what they say , the item made just recently will outperform something made 4 years ago, here we are dealing with 30 years gap

Which can be overcome with trained crew and modifications and improvements but I think its absolutely no match for any of the latest frigates coming out in modern navies of world

Gap fillers are great but we are not a nation that can afford gap fillers we need to buy item once for 20-30 years ... and spend good money on it

The point is not whether a modern, contemporary ship would be better than an older ship. The issue is what can you get for the money that you have available, both in terms of the capability of individual ships as well as in terms of the numerical requirements of a fleet.

If I know I'm going to be producing a decent ship domestically within 5 years, I'ld rather spent a little money on a few gap-filler and then get several new home-built ship, than a lot of money on pair of top of the line foreign ships, which will not solve the problem of block-obsolescence of my fleet (even if they boost fleet capability).

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Yes good point well once we get they ship may be we will get to know more of the OHP class

Well at our current status , any ship is a good ship - we really don't have that many ships in our navy - with current floods not sure how the gov will decide , building dam is more important for country

I am just glad the sailors will get to operate a large ship get used to it and may be we can then focus on similar larger ships if we have the appropriate funding

I was hoping to see pictures of OHP coming and docking in GWADAR or Karachi and pics but now we hear its coming next year - so it was major disapointment

But we will see so far our current gov failed in its bid to get any addition

German Subs deal broken down
French deals in limbo
US OHP we keep getting conflicting info that its 1 ship or 6 ships
The F16 are delayed , the ohp is delayed till next year

This gov we have just has no clue how to close deals

In Musharif's time we some what made our forces some what respectable