Oliver Hazard Class Frigate Acquisition by Pakistan

[Myth_buster_1]

Well - I heard all the surface to air weaponry will be removed from the ship ? no ?

With lack a suitable air defence on a ship its more of a coast guard like operation ship

Well yes , we can get some launchers from China but that will add cost to the ship

So in end we will probbly spend 50-60% of what we would have spent on a brand new ship. Integrating chinese Missiles systems will take TIME and finances

The only thing a BIG plus I guess is the Anti Submarine stuff but we just don't know how good that is yet .....

Tactically if we do induct such a ship we should induct it with Air Defence in place otherwise such a ship is risky

Its a wonderful SHIP ... all respect but its an asset that has to be protected before its commissioned any where with air defences.

Now if we had got 3 Chinese ships with ample Air defence capabilities close to destroyer class then yes this Ship adds a great dimension to the force


But for now its good addition for getting used to larger ships

Do we have any missile boats that can target Air based threats , if so it would be logical to acompany the OHP with missile boat group of 4-5 boats (a temporary solution)

Abbay yaar China this China that is not the answer to Pak every this and that solutions!
This frigate is FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! Does not cost a single RUPEE and even the refurbishment will be paid from us funds.
The Mk13 was stripped for USN requirement and were not deliberately stripped for Pak.
The Mk13 is most likely to be reinstated and the AAW and AShW capability will be retained as part of the package.
i even dont know how you are calculating the cost of this ship. How did you come to a conclusion that this frigate will cost 50-60% of a new Chinese Frigate?
IMO if MK13 is retained and if PN chooses SM-2 Block III and new Harpoon it will cost no more then 50 million dollars and the capability will be XX times more then F-22P! The AAW capability in F-22P is a JOKE!

 

[Penguin]

Well - I heard all the surface to air weaponry will be removed from the ship ?

Where did you hear this?

 

[razgriz19]

Well - I heard all the surface to air weaponry will be removed from the ship ? no ?

With lack a suitable air defence on a ship its more of a coast guard like operation ship

Well yes , we can get some launchers from China but that will add cost to the ship

So in end we will probbly spend 50-60% of what we would have spent on a brand new ship. Integrating chinese Missiles systems will take TIME and finances

The only thing a BIG plus I guess is the Anti Submarine stuff but we just don't know how good that is yet .....

Tactically if we do induct such a ship we should induct it with Air Defence in place otherwise such a ship is risky

Its a wonderful SHIP ... all respect but its an asset that has to be protected before its commissioned any where with air defences.

Now if we had got 3 Chinese ships with ample Air defence capabilities close to destroyer class then yes this Ship adds a great dimension to the force


But for now its good addition for getting used to larger ships

Do we have any missile boats that can target Air based threats , if so it would be logical to acompany the OHP with missile boat group of 4-5 boats (a temporary solution)

SAM capability was removed years ago..

 

[Donatello]

And i know you seriously dont know anything about PN FFG.

Actually i do.


As long as PN is making this ship part of it's frontline force, it must make it anti-air capable.

Maybe you could add on to discussion rather than your sarcastic remarks.

 

[Penguin]

Let's stop this useless debate a.k.a. pissing contest. It is simple:
at present, the ship is not armed with either AShM or SAM, but does have CIWS and other naval guns, as well as a full ASW outfit (though not clear which helicopters she will use).
Upon refurbishment, there are 3 possible outcomes:
-- she stays the way she is
-- Mk13 launcher arm and STIR are reinstalled, reinstating SAM and AShM capability to original condition
-- Mk13 launcher arm and STIR are not reinstalled but some other solution to the lack of AShM and SAM is implemented.

Untill such time as the ship come out of the refurb proces, or there is some official indication detailing what's being done, it is all just quesswork and/or wishlists that we're posting here.

You may or may not like OHP as is, but you can't really judge untill after the refurb.

 

[Jigs]

Let's stop this useless debate a.k.a. pissing contest. It is simple:
at present, the ship is not armed with either AShM or SAM, but does have CIWS and other naval guns, as well as a full ASW outfit (though not clear which helicopters she will use).
Upon refurbishment, there are 3 possible outcomes:
-- she stays the way she is
-- Mk13 launcher arm and STIR are reinstalled, reinstating SAM and AShM capability to original condition
-- Mk13 launcher arm and STIR are not reinstalled but some other solution to the lack of AShM and SAM is implemented.

Untill such time as the ship come out of the refurb proces, or there is some official indication detailing what's being done, it is all just quesswork and/or wishlists that we're posting here.

You may or may not like OHP as is, but you can't really judge untill after the refurb.

Do you have a picture that shows the Phalanx on this ship ?

 

[razgriz19]

Do you have a picture that shows the Phalanx on this ship ?

this pic is about a year old...

u can clearly see phalanx on the hangar!

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

More then likely if we have any extra launchers for air to surface , defences , 1 could be installed on this ship but you have to question the wireing and the labour work , to install such complicated pieces into the ship and hook it all up with the command center will take ample amount of engineering and effort

Lets analyse the price

OHP : 70 Million USD (Gives us 7-8 years) lets not forget its a 30 year old ship
F22P : 180-200 Million USD (Gives us solid 18 years)

Now OHP , will need , chinese Surface to Air systems
these will cost us 40 million by rouge estimates

Then we will have to actually get these installed on the ship
so consultant's costs on top lets add 10 million

So about 130 Million dollars worth of work needed to be done

We are looking at ball part value ...

Now if we compare the life of the F22p and OHP ships one is giving us solid 20 years , the other is giving us 7-10 years of service

So you can get idea of where the money is worth spending in long run

The advantage of OHP

>Anti Ship capabilities (but sitting duck from air) even a glider
with granades can knock its anteenas out

> But the underwater , survailence is SOLD 100%

So we do need to protect the ship from air or cruise missile attacks

A chinese Type 045 A 3 in our navy plus 1 OHP in that group would be wonderful balanced force.

But for time being its good for training our navy with large ships and perhaps learning more about anti submarine capabilities


Again while we are grateful to US its a great thing to get OHP inducted in our navy the ship has history and honor , I think if we plan to develop good supporting cast for it and also beef up its air defences it can be a vital asset to our navy

 

[Myth_buster_1]

More then likely if we have any extra launchers for air to surface , defences , 1 could be installed on this ship but you have to question the wireing and the labour work , to install such complicated pieces into the ship and hook it all up with the command center will take ample amount of engineering and effort

Lets analyse the price

OHP : 70 Million USD (Gives us 7-8 years) lets not forget its a 30 year old ship
F22P : 180-200 Million USD (Gives us solid 18 years)

Now OHP , will need , chinese Surface to Air systems
these will cost us 40 million by rouge estimates

Then we will have to actually get these installed on the ship
so consultant's costs on top lets add 10 million

So about 130 Million dollars worth of work needed to be done

We are looking at ball part value ...

Now if we compare the life of the F22p and OHP ships one is giving us solid 20 years , the other is giving us 7-10 years of service

So you can get idea of where the money is worth spending in long run

The advantage of OHP

>Anti Ship capabilities (but sitting duck from air) even a glider
with granades can knock its anteenas out

> But the underwater , survailence is SOLD 100%

So we do need to protect the ship from air or cruise missile attacks

A chinese Type 045 A 3 in our navy plus 1 OHP in that group would be wonderful balanced force.

But for time being its good for training our navy with large ships and perhaps learning more about anti submarine capabilities


Again while we are grateful to US its a great thing to get OHP inducted in our navy the ship has history and honor , I think if we plan to develop good supporting cast for it and also beef up its air defences it can be a vital asset to our navy

Dude, seriously you need to improve the quality of your posts in naval section. Your analysis is very flawed!
I hate repeating same stuff over again when it has been answered so many times

First of all the OHP costs Pak not a single rupee! the 78 Million dollars per ship are not even from pak budget.

You need to first understand the basic capability of FFG.

FFG in USN service lost MK13 and associated equipments due to aging SM-1 so diverted the SM-1 stocks for its allies. These systems requires maintenance so its also one of the reason why they were striped for cost saving plans.

Now as we speak the FFG-08 is currently undergoing 78 million dollars refurbishment which may include reinstatement of MK13 and associated equipments such as the STIR to once again give it the capability to fire SM series missiles such as the SM-2 Block III (It is like the AMRAAM of the sea) and Harpoons. Their will be no BS 10 million dollars labor work!

I have no idea how you came to conclusion that 40 million dollars will be required to fit Chinese SAMs.
SeaRAM could be installed at cost of no more then 5 million dollars which is superior to FM-80 on F-22P. The Chinese solution is not even the answer here if PN wants to go for quality and superior system.
Since MK13 magazine deck can hold 32 Standard Missile and 8 Harpoon only then the cost could exceed 40 million dollars.
Auss Navy chose SM-2 Block III for its FFGs and this is what will be most likely be chosen by PN as well.

Pak will have to bare the 40-50 million dollars additional armament cost but this will give PN a far far far superior edge to F-22P.

 

[Jigs]

this pic is about a year old...

u can clearly see phalanx on the hangar!

It should be above the hangar. If you watch the video (ceremony one) when the camera goes to record the back i don't see it there. It should be inline with the compact gun which i see but no Phalanx.

 

[Penguin]

More then likely if we have any extra launchers for air to surface , defences , 1 could be installed on this ship but you have to question the wireing and the labour work , to install such complicated pieces into the ship and hook it all up with the command center will take ample amount of engineering and effort

The ship originally came with SM1MR and Harpoon. I don't see why 2x4 deck launched Harpoon would require rewiring, given that the firecontrols for Harpoon are already present. Likewise for SM1MR or even ESSM: both are SARH. THe WM25 can serve as illuminator but only at short ranges. Longer ranges (flight envelope SM1MR/ESSM) would need reinstallation of STIR near 76mm naval gun, not rewiring.

Lets analyse the price

Yes, let's!

OHP : 70 Million USD (Gives us 7-8 years) lets not forget its a 30 year old ship
F22P : 180-200 Million USD (Gives us solid 18 years)

Purchase cost OHP =$0
Refurb cost OHP = $78 million (bringing her back to zero mileage)
F22P = ok, but not exactly first rate

Now OHP , will need , chinese Surface to Air systems
these will cost us 40 million by rouge estimates

\

The MK-31 RAM Guided Missile Weapon System (GMWS) is defined as the MK-49 Guided Missile Launching System (GMLS) and the MK-44 Guided Missile Round Pack (GMRP). The launching system and missiles comprise the weapon system. The Mk-144 Guided Missile Launcher (GML) unit weighs 5,777 kilograms (12,740 lb) and stores 21 missiles.

In October 2004, the Republic of Korea Navy ordered three RAM systems worth $25 million for the KDX-III class destroyers. So, the cost of the launcher and associated equipment can't be much more than $8 million.

A single RIM 116 block II round costs $440,000 so 21 round cost $9,240,000 (block I rounds cost $273,000 each > 21 rounds = $5,733,000).

At most, installing a fully loaded RAM launcher costs $20 million therefor

By comparison, unit cost for HQ7 is quoted at around $162,000 per launcher and $24,500 per missile. i.e. for a loaded 8-round launcher that's $358,000. Counting in another 16 rounds for reloads, you end up with $750,000. However, this price does not include the fire control radar and the command consoles, which are actually the more expensive parts of the system.

I suspect the RAM-like FL-3000N system to be cheaper than RAM but more expensive than HQ7

Then we will have to actually get these installed on the ship
so consultant's costs on top lets add 10 million

There isn't much to integrate when dealing with IIRH/RFH missiles like RAM and FL3000N

So about 130 Million dollars worth of work needed to be done

Not likely. For example, why assume work a yard in Pakistan is equally expensive as work in a US yard?

Now if we compare the life of the F22p and OHP ships one is giving us solid 20 years , the other is giving us 7-10 years of service

Purchase cost:
Write off for a 30yr old used OHP = $78m/7-10yrs = $8-11 million per year
(if you count in $20 for RAM > $100 million / 10 years = $10 million per year > if such additional money is spent, the expect 10 rather than 7 years of service)
Write off for F22P = $180-200m/20yrs = $9-10 million per year
Not much actual difference here, using your numbers!

A chinese Type 045 A 3 in our navy plus 1 OHP in that group would be wonderful balanced force.

Yeah, that buddy-system really worked well for the Brits in the Falklands too > see the story of HMS Coventry.

But for time being its good for training our navy with large ships and perhaps learning more about anti submarine capabilities

This is BS. There is little difference between operating the Type 21 and the OHP, although the latter is larger displacement. The OHPs will not serve PN as training ships but as combat ships.

Again while we are grateful to US its a great thing to get OHP inducted in our navy the ship has history and honor , I think if we plan to develop good supporting cast for it and also beef up its air defences it can be a vital asset to our navy

Duh, the OHPs are intended as gap-fillers. So, PN is already planning other, newer ships (Milgem, F22P follow on), some if not all domestical production...

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Every thing is nice and dandy as long as we don't get to hear that the ship has to be retired after 8 years of service and then we are back to ground zero searching for ships to buy.

We did this weired renting thing before "leasing ships" once these leased ships were gone our navy was back to being ... coast guard status

We will be facing the issue of Mirage planes like issue with these ships

But once we get the ship in our possesion we can probbly get better inside info form some of our colleagues on the forum

I would not mind us going for some new generation friagtes/destroyers from france

It would be nice to have 2-3 Stealth/Frigates I mean these come with all the stuff installed just marginal more cost , I mean Zardari buys a 140 million dollar home in britain , I am sure we can afford a 300 million dollar new frigate as well



Ideally coming with life span of 20 years you spend good money once and you get something that lasts you for 20 years

Its hard to assume a ship will be a combat ship , with no missiles , or torpedo launchers just the sonars for submarine warfare and a helipad with no helicopter (UAV)


Consider a real life scenario this ship is at Sea , enemy navy launches 12 fighters flying low and they reach it , before any help reaches this ship the 12 planes will do a number on the ship with no air defences , while the CWIS will offer some resistance but that is really last line of defence. With our a destroyer or proper Frigate with some Surface to air features to support this ship it will be highly risky for this ship to operate

(Of course unless we have JF17 thunder naval versions protecting it from air)



The ship itself is not bad its awesome addition to our navy , but we also need to keep our navy updated , so we don't have to go thru EXPENSIVE modernization process on these old ships

Like if you think about it there was no PC back in 70's

So all the internal command and control systems must be using some really old technology ...

While true its useful technology but .... in another 10 years that ship will be really out dated - and we will probbly have to pay to scrap it in 10 years and would cost us $$ to get rid of it

Also the weak points of these frigates are well known and documented by major navies of world ... a newer frigate is normally designed to overcome the shortcomings of these OHP level ships

While these ships are great ... again... part of me wishes we had invested the 80 million for helicopters and waited on ship untill we get a new frigate

 

[Nutuk]

Agreed in principal. Howver, refurbishing might well entail reinstallation of the arm of the mk13 launcher and STIR (since this is strictly speaking not an upgrade but rather restoration of original capability)

As for Mk41 installation not making sense without installation of a capable 3D radar, might I suggest you look into the Australian upgrade of their FFG7-type frigates: no was 3D radar installed, just upgrades of the current sets and yet it got a Mk41 unit for 32 ESSM. See also Turkish navy FFG7 upgrade plans. But yes, in both cases upgrades of the CMS and radar.

Hmm yeah you are right on the Australian perry, they seem to have got only radar upgrades, The Turkish upgraded perry's are to receive the Smart-s 3D radar.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

AZADPAKISTAN2009

TRY TO LEARN! This is for your own benefit and we wont have to read your rants.

 

[Penguin]

Every thing is nice and dandy as long as we don't get to hear that the ship has to be retired after 8 years of service and then we are back to ground zero searching for ships to buy.

You just earlier stated their expected remaining service life is 7-10 years, now you want them to remain in service longer: make up your mind, you're being inconsistent inyour expectations.

We did this weired renting thing before "leasing ships" once these leased ships were gone our navy was back to being ... coast guard status

Nothing weird about that. There was a lease, for a limited period, with the possibility/option of renewal. The lease reached its full term (i.e. 'expired') then a political decision was made on the part of the US to not renew the lease.
The Perry deal is NOT a lease: the ship(s) become(s) the property of PN via a GIFT IN AID. Worst case scenario would be that US denies logistics support for the vessels/systems.

As for coast guard status ... when the 8 US ships of the Brooke/Garcia classes were returned, PN had acquired the Type 21 from the UK (Tariq class), in addition to 2 Type 12 Leander class frigates (Shamsher and Zulfiquar) that were transferred to Pakistan from the United Kingdom in July and October 1988, respectively (The latter of these retired in 2007). That's 8 frigates from the UK to replace 8 ships from the US.

We will be facing the issue of Mirage planes like issue with these ships

IIRC There are no issues with Mirages in PAF: they have an excellent track record.

But once we get the ship in our possesion we can probbly get better inside info form some of our colleagues on the forum

I would not mind us going for some new generation friagtes/destroyers from france

It would be nice to have 2-3 Stealth/Frigates I mean these come with all the stuff installed just marginal more cost , I mean Zardari buys a 140 million dollar home in britain , I am sure we can afford a 300 million dollar new frigate as well

FREMM is in the order of 400-550m euro depending on version.
Times 3 is 1.2b=1.5 euro > close to 2b dollar.

Ideally coming with life span of 20 years you spend good money once and you get something that lasts you for 20 years

Most naval ships are designed for a service life of (at least) 30 years rather than 20, though average actual service life may be 20 (considering ships are retited as economiy measures, not because they because they've become obsolete).

Its hard to assume a ship will be a combat ship , with no missiles , or torpedo launchers just the sonars for submarine warfare and a helipad with no helicopter (UAV)
OHP has everything except Harpoon and SM1MR and there are easy and cheap remedies should Mk13 not be reinstated to full operational capability.

Consider a real life scenario this ship is at Sea , enemy navy launches 12 fighters flying low and they reach it , before any help reaches this ship the 12 planes will do a number on the ship with no air defences , while the CWIS will offer some resistance but that is really last line of defence. With our a destroyer or proper Frigate with some Surface to air features to support this ship it will be highly risky for this ship to operate

(Of course unless we have JF17 thunder naval versions protecting it from air)

1. It is highly unlikely that the OHP would roam alone. Rather, she'ld be part of a task group.
2. A PN taskgroup would likely operate under cover of landbased fighters.
3. None of the PN ships (Type 21, F22P) are particularly capable when it comes to AAW, so why should this be considered an issue with OHP?

The ship itself is not bad its awesome addition to our navy , but we also need to keep our navy updated , so we don't have to go thru EXPENSIVE modernization process on these old ships

PN has always been and is still getting pre-owned 'old' ships because new ships are even more expensive. The F22Ps are new but begotten at very low 'friendship price' from China. The important point about that purchase is the development of a domestic design/build capability, which allows PN to becaome less dependent on foreign sources, rather than these ships' combat capabilities.

Like if you think about it there was no PC back in 70's

So all the internal command and control systems must be using some really old technology ...

The oldest FFG7 - Perry itself - is from 1977.

"FYI, by the early 1970s, people in academic or research institutions had the opportunity for single-person use of a computer system in interactive mode for extended durations, although these systems would still have been too expensive to be owned by a single person. In the 1970s Hewlett Packard introduced fully BASIC programmable computers that fit entirely on top of a desk, including a keyboard, a small one-line display and printer. The Wang 2200 of 1973 had a full-size CRT and cassette tape storage. The IBM 5100 in 1975 had a small CRT display and could be programmed in BASIC and APL. These were generally expensive specialized computers sold for business or scientific uses. The introduction of the microprocessor, a single chip with all the circuitry that formerly occupied large cabinets, led to the proliferation of personal computers after 1975."
Personal computer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can bet the military were among th first users. ANd you completely overlook that the USN has consistently modernized the onboard systems. See the section 'about the equipment' here

While true its useful technology but .... in another 10 years that ship will be really out dated - and we will probbly have to pay to scrap it in 10 years and would cost us $$ to get rid of it

What part of GAP FILLER don't you understand? It will take time for PN to get domestic shipproduction in order. Meanwhile, ex-USN ships are cheap and sufficiently capable to be usefull.

Also the weak points of these frigates are well known and documented by major navies of world ... a newer frigate is normally designed to overcome the shortcomings of these OHP level ships

Nonetheless, the navies of e.g. Spain, Turkey and Australia have chosen to upgrade their OHPs, addressing at least some of those issues, and giving their sihps an extended lease on life. Are you suggesting they are stupid or don't know their business (as well as you think you do)?

While these ships are great ... again... part of me wishes we had invested the 80 million for helicopters and waited on ship untill we get a new frigate

That might have bought some 6 Z-9's (or fewer of a larger type) plus training and support services, not a great force multiplier if land based IMHO.