Old Baloch custom of drinking blood from skulls of their enemies

[al-Hasani]

Anyway Baluch are ethnically closest too Kurds and while I do not speak the Baluchi language I have heard it is similar to Kurdish. In fact Arab historians during the Islamic era claimed that Kurds and Baluch lived amongst one another as one people although they had different tongues.

This is not to say there aren't Baluch of Arab descent as there are tribes who have Arab origins like Baluchi Syeds obviously.

Where is the proof of that? Baluch people are not different from other South Asian peoples and cluster with fellow South Asian peoples. The only connection is a linguistic connection but a Sri Lankan also has an linguistic connection with a Portuguese but nothing else in common other than that.

The genetic studies that I have seen indeed show that Baluch people are closer genetically to ME people (in the Arab world even some Baluch people can be hard to detect as foreigners unlike for instance Sindhi people) as a whole but that's bound in geography as they live on the frontiers of the ME and South Asia. Kurds though, genetically speaking, are not any differently from other ME peoples, and are by no means an homogenous people and appeared in written history quite recently.

Nobody has said anything about Baluch being Arabs and that's obviously complete and utter nonsense. Just like the legend connecting their ancestral homeland with Syria IMO

Not any different from some claims of Pathans or Kashmiris being the lost tribes of Israel or having ME ancestries. Outside of a minority that's not the case. I mean ME ancestry.

Today, due to genetics, we can distinguish between oral traditions/legends and reality. Yet I have seen quite a few Pashtuns believe that they are Israelites/descendants of ancient Hebrews which is quite sad.

In any case we are all mixed.

Arabian and indian

Mate, do you know when Baluch appeared in written records? Do you know if those written records correspondent with oral traditions and legends? Lastly do you know about the genetic makeup of Baluch people?

When I say Baluch people I am talking about the unmixed lot. Meaning no Makranis (Africans basically) or assimilated tribes from Pashtun/Punjab areas nearby.

I have seen many theories.

You should just know one thing and that is that Kurds are quite recent peoples in Syria. They did not arrive there more than 1000 years ago. If Baluch people indeed trace their ancestry from Syria several thousands years ago then those people who lived there back then and the vast majority today are obviously Semites. Lastly the Persians only had a short presence in the Levant and when they arrived several millennium old native Semitic civilizations already existed.

History of Syria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Moreover no real population movements occurred as the local culture was intact.

Wikipedia is not always an accurate source as anyone can edit it and biased sources are known to be used.

So actually I am more interested in what the oral traditions/legends actually say AND what the first WRITTEN historical accounts say. That is only interesting when genetics are used in connecting to that to make the final conclusions.

I mean it might for instance be interesting that some Pashtun tribes claimed/claim Israelite/Hebrew ancestry and that some tribal clans had similar names as Jewish Prophets but that is not of much use if genetic tests show that there is no real genetic connection to Jewish peoples of today or ME people as a whole. Or that it is minor. Get what I am trying to say here?

Then you have 3 main components to look after and when all 3 have been evaluated you can make a sound conclusion IMO. Legends/oral traditions are not enough on their own IMO.

So as a Baluch yourself it could be interesting to see what you got to say about that. You must surely know more than me.

 

[Kabira]

Baloch are obviously not related to Kurds genetically. Baloch are basically same as Brahui people. Baloch and Pashtuns have stereotypical warrior like features and body build which is not seen much in Iran or ME people. So calling them Iranic is also wrong.

 

[SALMAN F]

200 years and long before anything called Iran or Farsis existed Syria like the entire Arab world was inhabited by Semites and part of ancient native Semitic civilizations.

History of Syria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kurds are not form Aleppo either but fairly new arrivals.

@SALMAN AL-FARSI

why did you tagged me

 

[al-Hasani]

Baloch are obviously not related to Kurds genetically. Baloch are basically same as Brahui people. Baloch and Pashtuns have stereotypical warrior like features and body build which is not seen much in Iran or ME people. So calling them Iranic is also wrong.

Actually I have seen Baloch people that resemble Arabs and ME people quite a lot. I should know as Baloch people are the biggest ethnic group on the Arabian Peninsula that are actual citizens from South Asia. Also Baluchistan and for instance Oman are very close geographically too.

If you ask me and from what I know about then I think that Baloch people have incorporated a lot of locals (Pashtuns, Punjabis, Sindhis, Bruhui peoples) and non-locals into their greater tribe (Baloch) and they are probably a mixture of mainly local South Asian peoples and to a smaller degree ME peoples of various backgrounds.

After all we are talking about a relatively small ethnic group (especially just 100-200 years ago) that also inhabit a relatively small geographical area.

What is certain is that Baloch people as a whole seem to be closer in appearance to ME people and they also inhabit a region that is the closet to the ME geographical wise.

For instance in my own experience they are a bit different than nearby Sindhis, Punjabis etc. on average in terms of appearance. Anyway it's all hard to tell.

I am just waiting for the reply of @Irfan Baloch as I am curious about his thoughts on this topic as a Baloch.

why did you tagged me

Because you are an fellow Arab that has proven to have a knowledge about Kurds and if that is the case you will agree with what I wrote, namely that Kurds are not indigenous to Syria (let alone Aleppo) and that they are fairly new arrivals to that region of the ME. Let alone them being a homogenous peoples.

 

[SALMAN F]

Actually I have seen Baluch people that resemble Arabs and ME people quite a lot. I should know as Baluch people are the biggest ethnic group on the Arabian Peninsula that are actual citizens from South Asia. Also Baluchistan and for instance Oman are very close geographically too.

If you ask me and from what I know about then I think that Baluch people have incorporated a lot of locals and non-locals into their greater tribe (Baluch) and they are probably a mixture of mainly local South Asian peoples and to a smaller degree ME peoples of various backgrounds.

After all we are talking about a relatively small ethnic group (especially just 100-200 years ago) that also inhabit a relatively small geographical area.

What is certain is that Baluch people as a whole seem to be closer in appearance to ME people and they also inhabit a region that is the closet to the ME.

For instance in my own experience they are a bit different than nearby Sindhi, Punjabi etc. peoples on average. Anyway it's all hard to tell.



Because you are an fellow Arab that has proven to have a knowledge about Kurds and if that is the case you will agree with what I wrote, namely that Kurds are not indigenous to Syria (let alone Aleppo) and that they are fairly new arrivals to that region of the ME.

yes they massacred the native inhabited in Iraq as for Syria they are refugees who fled from the ottomans

 

[al-Hasani]

Baloch phenotype is closer to pashtun then any ME or Iran people. Pashtuns are more related to non-dalit Punjabis and Sindhis genetically then Baloch-Brahui are. In appearance pure Baloch of Pakistan look nothing like ME people. As i said they have warrior like build and features is not found much in ME. You probably saw mixed Baloch.

One exemple of Pakistani Baloch

Mate, I do not know what "warrior like build" means. For instance we Arabs, especially Arabians, tend to be the tallest Asians out there and we are also known for having pretty sharp features. I see that in Iranians too but less so others in the ME let alone South Asians.

Male Average Height By Country | Map & Chart | Men only

Female Average Height By Country | Map & Chart | Women only

Phenotypes are a complex matter and all I am saying is that from my experience Baloch people seem more similar in appearance with ME people than other South Asian peoples. But I don't think that Baloch people have an ME appearance in general either. Just saying that they are more similar than let's say Sindhis or Indians or Bangladeshis let alone Sri Lankans. Same with Pashtuns IMO. I think that other Arabs here from the Arabian Peninsula (where most South Asians live in the Arab world) can confirm this as I have learnt to distinguish between various South Asians by now as we have many South Asians here (citizens and non-citizens) and I can easily detect many of them based on appearance by now. Of course I am not always guessing rightly.

Yes, I have noticed that Baloch and Pashtuns seem rather similar but that's not really strange considering geography, history, mixture etc.

Anyway I am awaiting @Irfan Baloch 's reply and eager to learn something new.

 

[jatt+gutts]

Only Pakistanis feel proud of such practices. Irony is to us Sikhs Baluch are known as meek fellows who ride camels. British called them non martial and never recruited them in army as in case of war their chances of running away leaving weapons is high.

 

[Kabira]

Mate, I do not know what "warrior like build" means. For instance we Arabs, especially Arabians, tend to be the tallest Asians out there and we are also known for having pretty sharp features. I see that in Iranians too but less so others in the ME let alone South Asians.

Male Average Height By Country | Map & Chart | Men only

Female Average Height By Country | Map & Chart | Women only

Phenotypes are a complex matter all I am saying is that from my experience Baloch people seem more similar in appearance with ME people than other South Asian peoples. But I don't think that Baloch people have an ME appearance in general either. Just saying that they are more similar than let's say Sindhis or Indians or Bangladeshis let alone Sri Lankans.

Warrior type features mean less of feminate look on average. ''South Asia'' is broad term, it covers from North Pakistan to Sri Lanka. And some estimate put 40% of Sindhis have Baloch ancestry. Lots of ''Sindhi Baloch'' in Sindh who are now basically Sindhis.

Anyway i found this genetic map but no arabs in it, do you have any PCA plot with GCC Arabs? Just wondering where they cluster.

 

[al-Hasani]

Aha.

On that map we would cluster with the Near East or Western Asia. You can see that Lebanese, Bedouins, Palestinians, Druze are all placed in the Near East category between Europe and Caucasus. Our Afro-Arabs tend to cluster with Horn of Africa who themselves are distinctly looking from other Africans and they often have Caucasian features if you have noticed. Apparently they are a mixture of West Asians (paternal lines here only) and Africans.

Anyway what's your idea about the origin of Baloch people and would you agree with me if I say that Baloch people and Pashtuns are closely related?

 

[RazPaK]

Baluch are Pakistani.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Yes, I have noticed that Baloch and Pashtuns seem rather similar but that's not really strange considering geography, history, mixture etc.

Anyway I am awaiting @Irfan Baloch 's reply and eager to learn something new.

I am sorry to disappoint you but I didnt really dig deep on our origin. the process of sublimation means we are now sons of the Indian sub continent.
I dont have much to say about it. elders tell me that our ancestors migrated over centuries from Syria to here and were mixed up with other ethnicity.
we are different from Pashtons the two dont share shame roots.

Baloch phenotype is closer to pashtun then any ME or Iran people. Pashtuns are more related to non-dalit Punjabis and Sindhis genetically then Baloch-Brahui are. In appearance pure Baloch of Pakistan look nothing like ME people. As i said they have warrior like build and features is not found much in ME. You probably saw mixed Baloch.

One exemple of Pakistani Baloch

that example sucks

 

[Kabira]

Aha.

On that map we would cluster with the Near East or Western Asia. You can see that Lebanese, Bedouins, Palestinians, Druze are all placed in the Near East category between Europe and Caucasus. Our Afro-Arabs tend to cluster with Horn of Africa who themselves are distinctly looking from other Africans and they often have Caucasian features if you have noticed. Apparently they are a mixture of West Asians (paternal lines here only) and Africans.

Anyway what's your idea about the origin of Baloch people and would you agree with me if I say that Baloch people and Pashtuns are closely related?

Baloch-Brahui are genetically indigenous to Balochistan, very interesting people genetically. Phenotype wise they are closer to pashtuns. Anyway i found this PCA plot of arabs, seem to very distinct from each other. Bedouins and Saudis closter toghether while Palestinians and Syrians are closer to Iran-Turkey.

 

[Aepsilons]

In Ber or Hun (Revenge) section of "Baluch Mayar" i came upon an interesting account,

"Haibat Khan Niazi general of sher shah suri Arrested one son of Mir Chakar Rind and killed him. When Mir Chakar know about that ,he killed Haibat Khan Niazi, fashioned his skull into a cup and drank his blood in it"
We know that this is factually incorrect , Chakar Rind was merely a loyal subordinate of Haibat Khan Niazi. Refer to this article for further details. But from this account , we come to know about this interesting old custom of Balochs, drinking blood from the skull of their enemies. I did some research and found another such account,


"During the time of Mirza Khan Pannaey, the Afghan Chief of Sibi (1666-1699 AD) eighteen battles were fought between the Panni Confederacy and the Brahuis of Kalat in the neighbourhood of Sibi or Dhadar (Major H.G. Raverty does not make a mention of these but other historians belonging to the opposite sides namely, Mullah Fazil and Akhund Muhammad Sidique Akhbar-ul-Abrar 1854 mentioned these). In one of such battles Bahar Khan Kurak Pannaey wounded Mir Ahmad Qambrani, the Chief of Kalat. The Brahuis left the battlefield; the Afghans collected the booty, consisting of silken belts and horses of Turki and Tazi breed. Mir Ahmad Qambrani's sister named Bibo gallantly attacked the Pannis. Attired in male garments she fought valiantly and got killed at the hand of Jalal Khan Kurak (A. Aziz Luni Afghans of Frontier Passes Vol-I, p-185). Soon the Brahuis avenged themselves on the Pannis and defeated Rahim Khan Pirang who led the Pannis in the absence of Mirza Khan Pannaey.

Mullah Fazil writes: Mir Ahmad got off his horse to inspect the bodies of some of the Afghan nobles famous for their bravery in the battlefield. He smeared his moustaches with the fat of Syed Abdul Nabi and drank the blood of Shanbay Pirani (Mulla Fazil Nasab Nam-i-Barozi or History of Siwi, 1825 AD).

In 1695 AD, peace prevailed between the two tribes, which was sealed by a happy marriage of Princes Mahnaz the daughter of Mir Ahmad Qambrani with Said Khan Barozaey Panni, the brother of Mirza Khan Pannaey.

I noticed this on Baloch Mayar | Baloch Culture

“Bijar, one of the nobles of Chakarian age, was killed by the member of a Buledi tribe; his ribs were roasted and thrown outside to feed carrion kites. Consequently, the murdered man’s relations caught Haibat Khan, the Buledi chief, dragged him on a high precipice and, to comply with the savage custom of the race, his head was cut off and skull fashioned into a cup, served the victor as a drinking cup which remained for a considerable time among Bijar’s family.”

we have another less gory custom as well
those that pretend to be our friends and betray us for their own ends are roped and dragged by horses (now vehicles) until they die.

and then we bed their women and the children that are born are kept as slaves forever and raised to fight their original tribe.

our people have traveled up to Europe and America to settle such scores . what they did to the women of their victims is unknown and open to speculation.

I can only hope that such barbaric practices are no longer part of the retinue of present Baloch cultural trademarks.

 

[Kabira]

I am sorry to disappoint you but I didnt really dig deep on our origin. the process of sublimation means we are now sons of the Indian sub continent.
I dont have much to say about it. elders tell me that our ancestors migrated over centuries from Syria to here and were mixed up with other ethnicity.
we are different from Pashtons the two dont share shame roots.


that example sucks

Ok here is Baloch from Punjab

 

[al-Hasani]

Actually most Arabs cluster with each other very closely. This is not surprising as we share an ancient Semitic past and inhabit the same geographical region and our lands are geographically connected as well. We share the same paternal haplogroups and we always cluster in the same geographical region. West Asia/Near East. KSA is a huge country and depending on the region, ethnicity, etc. the results will be distinct but always with the same haplogroups dominating and always being labelled in the same geographical region. Anyway DNA testing and such is not really big in the Arab world and the samples are often few.

This is much more useful;

Covers most ethnic groups in the world. Seen similar once but can't find them now.

Google Sheets - create and edit spreadsheets online, for free.