Narrowing PAF Gap V IAF by 2015

[back me up]

I urge members not to take anything personal...we are on this forum for an open minded discussion.and with no intention to insult anyone...or am i wrong?

does the pope sh*t in the woods?

 

[big_mac]

U r comparing dassault aviation which has decades of experiance and designed and manufactured hundreds of fighters, agianst HAL which is doing it for the first time?

Errrr actually dude my above post was in response to Desi Sher’s post ( post # 129) who brought Rafale into the discussion . I fully agree with you that there is no comparison between Dassault and DRDO, but he asked for it, so was my post. I would suggest you read 129 first.

u will be comparing DRDO to alien technology next

Absolutely no intentions from my side mate unless someone else starts to compare Tejas with Alien space crafts.

 

[Desi Sher]

So basically you are saying that DRDO or IAF were never sure of what to do with Tejas !!! They never stuck to the initial design and kept changing it and wasting time and money.

You are good at twisting the Facts, anyways that is not of My concern..... Well Indeed You are correct in a way, DRDO and IAF had two different thinking, While DRDO made this aircraft capable only to replace the Mig 21's IAF wanted it to be superior to the Mirages which they had, and After that they wanted it to be a true 4th gen Light weight aircraft for which they had to Do drastic design changes, then the IAF wanted its RCS to be Low, then After Years of research DRDO found other Ways Of Super maneuverability and Left the canards Useless in the final Design....And About Time and Money, yes., After all Nothing comes for free....

You will never be able to finish the project if you continue to change it so drastically. Someone might say now that LCA must have stealth features so lets wait for another 5 years. Then someone will say that lets have VTOL capability, so another 5 years. Thats a total waste man.

Indeed, You are right IAF wanted a stealthy aircraft and Hence the Birth of Another Project AMCA , For Which another Laboratory of DRDO is In control and ADA is Designing its Avionics , NAL might be Involved too..... DRDO as I always Say is One Governing body of more than 40 Laboratories, and There are more than 4-5 branches for a Lab which do different projects funded by the Govt and Take 40% from there annual turnover

Basically Indians didn’t know what to do with this aircraft and they are still not sure. The design and the things that TEJAS has were becoming obsolete as more time was wasted and designers did'nt know what to do with it.

LCA's Design Is Unique, Its not an Obsolete Design, May I know what is so Obsolete about its design, since you seem to be a design expert. And If the LCA Design was Obsolete and Designers Dint know what to do, then How come Naval Prototype Rolled Out???? One Of the most Complex thing is making an Aircraft Land On a Carrier, which is hardly 200 Meters

Had DRDO stuck with initial design, rolled out the aircraft and started producing it then atleast there was some face saving. Further changes and upgrades could be made later on as the aircraft matured into the service. The new models could have better design features and enhanced capability. You guys could keep it improving while the aircraft was in service. Just look at the F-16 Block 1 and the Block 62. They continued to evolve the aircraft as it was in service,

Dont blame the DRDO, Blame the IAF for the delay, Tejas has Undergone, believe me or Not 3 Design Changes and Now is that finally IAF is Happy with its Performance, and Still wants Its Cockpit Design to be More Pilot firendly, changes Would be Made On LSP 5....

Now TEJAS will be ops God knows when and is already an obsolete. Even the IAF reduced its orders and looking for other better options (MRCA) because Tejas fails to deliver what it was meant for.

As I said, IAF has Ordered Only for 40 as The Cabinet committee has Only approved that Much, HAL chairman said IAF has a Need for 220 LCA Tejas,for which the orders Would be placed after the IOC....

 

[Desi Sher]

Errrr actually dude my above post was in response to Desi Sher’s post ( post # 129) who brought Rafale into the discussion . I fully agree with you that there is no comparison between Dassault and DRDO, but he asked for it, so was my post. I would suggest you read 129 first.




Absolutely no intentions from my side mate unless someone else starts to compare Tejas with Alien space crafts.

Could You Please show me where I compared Tejas With Rafale In terms Of Technology???? Iam Eager to see it

 

[rockstarIN]

Air Force To Deploy First LCA Tejas Squadron in Tamil Nadu By 2010 | India Defence

The above is your own link from India defense.

It says that Tejas to be inducted in 2010, mate you saying 2011 So there is already a delay I guess or may be just a diff of opinion. So now further delays in becomming operational.

You sayng 40 by IAF and source says 20 instead of perceived 220. Why is IAF not going for 220 ? Whats going on here ?

Hi All

Here is some data about the modern 4th generation aircraft design and production/induction details

French Rafale

1985 France formally withdraws from Eurofighter programme, committing to Rafale project.

First flight 4 July 1986

Introduced 4 December 2000

With experiance producing like Mirages, FRANCE took 14 years to introduce the fighter from the first flight date.

EUROFIGHTER

1983 - the UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spain launched the Future European Fighter Aircraft (FEFA) programme.

First flight 27 March 1994

Introduced 4 August 2003

A consortium of European companies, with earlier Aircraft manufacturing experience took 9 years from fight flight to introduce the aircraft.

JAS 39 Gripen

The development of the Gripen began in 1982 with approval from Swedish Parliament

First flight 9 December 1988

Introduction 9 June 1996

Took 8 years to intorduce from first flight date


LCA

1986 - Government allocates 575 crores for the LCA programme.

First flight 4 January 2001

Introduction 2010 (December 2010 IOC)

Without experience in independently designing/producing fight aircraft, We manage to introduce the fighter in 9 years...!!!

 

[rockstarIN]

some indians keep on talking upgrade mig21 with BVR missles and AESA radar.this is hilarious.
1.active radar BVR missle is very expensive,the cost of two such BVR missles will beyond

that of a 30 years old mig21,let alone add a far more expensiver AESA radar in it ,you'd

better to put these expensive toys in a 4G figter or a 5G fighter
2.the agility and maneuverability of mig21 is no way near to a 4G fighter such as F-16,and it is also a very light fighter with pathetic payload. A such plane with two BVR

missle hefting 300 kg will fly like a drunkard.
3.the nose of mig21 is designed to be a air intake ,it has very little room ,even you put a expensive AESA radar in it ,this radar will be too little, thus, it cant utilize the potential of a active radar BVR missles

anyhow ,upgrade 50 years history mig21 with 30 years old airframe by active radar bvr Missles and AESA radar is meaningless and waste money, i bet IAF will not stupid enought to do this

Please note that in Cope India - 2004 exercise, USAF F-15,F-16 pilots admired the capability of Mig-21 Bisons in BVR combat.

 

[rockstarIN]

Here is the link

http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/usaf_vs_indian_air_force_--_cope_india_2005-print.html

 

[cybertron]

@rockstar
i have seen many reports wherein USAF pilots have claimed that the mig 21 bisons were invisible both india 2004 and the red flag 2008 to the f-15/16
we shouldnt in any way undermine there capabilities

 

[Arsalan]

Hi All

Here is some data about the modern 4th generation aircraft design and production/induction details

French Rafale

1985 France formally withdraws from Eurofighter programme, committing to Rafale project.

First flight 4 July 1986

Introduced 4 December 2000

With experiance producing like Mirages, FRANCE took 14 years to introduce the fighter from the first flight date.

EUROFIGHTER

1983 - the UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spain launched the Future European Fighter Aircraft (FEFA) programme.

First flight 27 March 1994

Introduced 4 August 2003

A consortium of European companies, with earlier Aircraft manufacturing experience took 9 years from fight flight to introduce the aircraft.

JAS 39 Gripen

The development of the Gripen began in 1982 with approval from Swedish Parliament

First flight 9 December 1988

Introduction 9 June 1996

Took 8 years to intorduce from first flight date


LCA

1986 - Government allocates 575 crores for the LCA programme.

First flight 4 January 2001

Introduction 2010 (December 2010 IOC)

Without experience in independently designing/producing fight aircraft, We manage to introduce the fighter in 9 years...!!!

i hope you were not serious while comparing LCA with JAS, Rafalle or EF

 

[Desi Sher]

i hope you were not serious while comparing LCA with JAS, Rafalle or EF

The comparison is between the Timeline not the machine... Get it?

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

The comparison is between the Timeline not the machine... Get it?

Will lca mark1 better than mig 29 ? if not will mark 2 be better ?

 

[Manticore]

another thread gone to waste with jf17 vs lca --- these comparisons were never informative , and now these discussions are not even amusing anymore.

 

[Desi Sher]

Will lca mark1 better than mig 29 ? if not will mark 2 be better ?

See, Mig 29 and LCA are Two different class of Fighters in the same League... How Can You compare both???

Mig 29 is a Heavy Potent Front Line Fighter Aircraft, where as The LCA is An Escort/Interceptor Role Mission Aircraft Specially Designed and Built, to do the Job better than any fighter in its class .....

Cannot Compare two different class Of Fighters Buddy

 

[aks18]

You are good at twisting the Facts, anyways that is not of My concern..... Well Indeed You are correct in a way, DRDO and IAF had two different thinking, While DRDO made this aircraft capable only to replace the Mig 21's IAF wanted it to be superior to the Mirages which they had, and After that they wanted it to be a true 4th gen Light weight aircraft for which they had to Do drastic design changes, then the IAF wanted its RCS to be Low, then After Years of research DRDO found other Ways Of Super maneuverability and Left the canards Useless in the final Design....And About Time and Money, yes., After all Nothing comes for free....

then IAF wanted LCA to be a stealth fighter , then IAF wanted LCA to beat f22 then IAF wanted LCA to become twin engine aircraft ,, then IAF wanted LCA to have more better radar then IAF wanted 6th n 7th generation components for LCA and then finally in 2030 LCA became operational

 

[humanfirst]

Based on confirmed orders(avoiding the "can be"s and "may"s),4-4.5 gen fighters in IAF and PAF will in 2015 will be:

PAF:
* jf17 -150 max(assuming production capacity of pac will increase to 24 per year from present 6)
*j10b-36
*f16 block15-50
*f16 block 52-18
TOTAL=254

IAF
*Su30 mki-270
*MMRCA-36(two sq) max
*LCA-40
*MiG29 upgraded to smt std-69
*Upgraded mirage2k-51
(also,addition of 45 mig29k by 2015 to navy will increase the punch of indian air power)
TOTAL=466(511 If mig29ks are included)

I dont see any narrowing gap