MRCA Competition-threat to PAF?

[Joodi]

Number of FC-20 will go up considerably something near 100-150 once it did satisfy PAF.

Yes exactly what i also mean, PAf will go for more J10 or opt or any other high tech plate form in large number

 

[pakpower]

Number of FC-20 will go up considerably something near 100-150 once it did satisfy PAF.

Hello my dear brother what if FC-20 doesn't satisfy PAF to their actual needs what will they go for than ?.

That's a tricky question what you say on that what will be there option in that case ?.

 

[pakpower]

Number of FC-20 will go up considerably something near 100-150 once it did satisfy PAF.

Hello my dear brother what if FC-20 doesn't satisfy PAF to their actual needs what will they go for than ?.

That's a tricky question what you say on that what will be there option in that case ?.

 

[Sapper]

Hello my dear brother what if FC-20 doesn't satisfy PAF to their actual needs what will they go for than ?.

That's a tricky question what you say on that what will be there option in that case ?.

Pakistan will probably go for more F16s in short term, and move focus to more proven Chinese platforms like J11 variants.

Possibility of Grippen-NG induction cannot be rejected as well, as Swedes are already working with PAF for their advanced AWACS.

 

[raveolution]

How u think and on which basis u claim that we cannt get western jets?

Y u think ur enemy is sleeping.....

If we can get U-214 then we will also be able to get Typhoon.
If we can get French avoinics, Engine ,Radar & submarines then Y not we cant get Rafeal.

If we can get SAAB AWECS then y cant we get JAS 39 Gripen.


Yeah, doubts are only on Russian and American defence deals.
But we are already getting Chinees built jets based on russian technology. But history proced that Chinees products were batter then russian at times.

Dont forget Chinees Shenyang J-6 developed on Soviet MiG-19.
And it was proved much batter then Soviet MiG-19 in Indo-Pakistan 1971 War, where it killed Mig-21 which was believed by many to be a superior aircraft to the J-6 at the time.

In Afghan War, The Pakistan Air Force used the J-6 in action against its original designers, the Soviet Union, and the jet claimed half a dozen air to air victories.

So, dont under estimate Chinees products.

we can get western avoinics,radar engines for JF-17. So there is no doubt abt that.

The typhoon is considered to be the most expensive aircraft of the lot with flyaway unit prices of around USD100 million each, with prices going up even further for smaller orders. The Rafale was considered and rejected due to the cost factor as well. The PAF has clearly stated its preference for more reasonable chinese aircraft. The Gripen uses many critical components which are of US origin and the PAF did not want to put any more eggs in the US basket apart from the F16's which are part of the US Aid package.

Pls correct me if my views are incorrect.

 

[raveolution]

250 JF17 is expected to counter LCA, Upgraded mig 21/29 and mirage 2000.

2 sq. of J10 is not where the world ends for PAF, its just the start of inducting such high tech plate forms in PAF. As per PAF strategy (36) j10s will operational till 2014-15. what happens after that, which planes PAF opts for, for that we can just wait and see and do the guess work.

I reiterate that I cannot understand what will go up against 280 MKI's or 126 MRCA. You cannot expect 60 F16's and 36 J10's to go up against 450 planes and expect to come out on top however excellent training etc may be.

I'm assuming the timeline as 2014-15 by which PAF would have inducted 150 (not 250, that speed is not possible if manufactured at a single facility within Pakistan, no offence meant.) JF17's.

Your statement was that after evaluation of the J10, PAF would look to order further planes? Would that mean that delivery time of the intended 100-150 J10's could extend to 2020-22? By then there would be other aircraft such as the PAK-FA in the equation as well as the MRCA deal being extended to 200 as well as the MCA? Isn't that too much?

PAF has clearly stated that it cannot go in for western aircraft due to cost and political considerations and in betting its future on Chinese aircraft.

 

[raveolution]

Pakistan will probably go for more F16s in short term, and move focus to more proven Chinese platforms like J11 variants.

Possibility of Grippen-NG induction cannot be rejected as well, as Swedes are already working with PAF for their advanced AWACS.

The J11 was already considered by the PAF. The reasons why it was not inducted were the following-
a) Twin engined aircraft of the heavy variety being maintenance intensive.
b) Refusal of Russia to supply engines and the non availability of a reliable Chinese engine.

The Gripen was probably passed over as many critical components of this aircraft are of US origin and the PAF did not want to put any more eggs in that basket.

 

[blain2]

That will be quite impressive if it is the truth. But you said there were trails done for Eurofighter Typhoons with J-10. Wont there be any kind of new published like Pakistan attended an airshow or Pakistan RFP for new planes includes Typhoon,etc.

If J-10 are so good, then Su-30 wont stand a chance, but there are recent orders from Indian and Chinese for more Su-30. Why would China buy more Su-30 if J-10 are better than them.

Also, Typhoons as you know that each of them cost about 80-120 million a piece, whereas J-10 cost is about 30 million.

Did you know about the PAF trials of the blk-52? Did you hear anything about PAF evaluation of the Grippin? Or for that matter the Flanker and Fulcrum? Not being published does not mean its not happening. Usually such things are done away from publicity. Secondly, RFP is done so in the cases where you have multiple sources trying to get the business. In Pakistan's case, our negotiations are done on the basis of 1-1. You talk to one, see what they offer, consider the other because unlike India, Pakistan has to deal with the geo-political bias of various governments.

Chinese have placed no further orders for Su-30s. Even if they do in the future, they may be thinking about long-range strike requirements.

Comparing the costs of Typhoon to FC-20 is flawed because its quite similar to the prices of a computer built in France or Germany vs. the same kind of product being built in China. There are massive differences in the cost of labour for both research and manufacturing. One Euro goes a long way in China, such is not the case in Germany, UK etc.

 

[rajeev]

Good analysis, blain

Comparing the costs of Typhoon to FC-20 is flawed because its quite similar to the prices of a computer built in France or Germany vs. the same kind of product being built in China. There are massive differences in the cost of labour for both research and manufacturing. One Euro goes a long way in China, such is not the case in Germany, UK etc.

If I believe your argument, then dont you think all the countries will fly to China to get F-20. Recently, RSA bought 79 Eurofighter.

But wont China add more of it than buying Su-30 MKK.

Also, there is no other article I could find where I found J-10 being highlighted as such. The articles I have rated among the flying birds today - F22 was usually followed by Typhoon in terms of ranking.

If J-10 is really that good wont IAF be panickly. Already PLAAF has 1:3 ratio in birds, now if they have much better in quality as well - that could be a disaster.

 

[Kompromat]

PAF's Available options , for Preparing itslef Against MRCA.

Pakistan airforce should Consider few options on the table to counter the MRCA threat .
1st for sure PAF will aquire Matching Fighter jet after the Fina MRCA Jet selection.

2: To practice against those aircrafts which are on offer to IAF in an Joint excercise , Including Following Brotherly Airforces to develop skills to counter MRCA.

RSAF( Royal saudi air force ) : EF-2000 Eurofighter
Kwaiti Air force: F/A 18 hornet C/D
UAE Air force: F-16 Block 60
Indonesian Air force:Rafale & JAS39 gripen being Considered to be bought.
Regards:

 

[abbasniazi]

The way Indian economy is progressing, i am sure neither pakistan nor any other neighbour of india except china will be able to counter indian air superiority in near future.

The best option available to these countries will be to sign an agreement of mutual air defence against the indian threat, in which, any attack on any of these countries will be considered as an attack on all.

this will be the only solution of this problem, all that matters is the time, THE SOONER THEY REALIZE, THE BETTER AND COST EFFECTIVE ITS GONNA BE FOR THEM...

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

IAF already has numerical superiority---a 100 su 30's----pak yet to look at an operational FC 20----so why should india worry at this time or even later---no reason to---. They don't even have a successful operational engine for that aircraft.

Here is what my analysis is---think what you want---with the recent changes and Kerry Luger bill---I believe paf had dug a deep grave for pakistan---paf is going to present pakistan on a platter to india---this organization---the paf is so screwed up mentally with its tunnel vision and a total lack of understanding of what was happening around it---they have chopped the knees off pakistan---just because of their fascination with the F 16 blk 52---and not getting to the right equipment in a timely fashion.

Some people might come swinging at me at how great the fighter jocks are and how they will lay their lives---and I don't doubt them for a moment---but my reservations of paf's abilities are here to stay.

So Mr Rajeev----india has nothing to worry about---as long they have the PAF heirarchy to face in its current mindset----india won't have to do much---paf will make sure of that.

 

[raveolution]

PAF's Available options , for Preparing itslef Against MRCA.

Pakistan airforce should Consider few options on the table to counter the MRCA threat .
1st for sure PAF will aquire Matching Fighter jet after the Fina MRCA Jet selection.

2: To practice against those aircrafts which are on offer to IAF in an Joint excercise , Including Following Brotherly Airforces to develop skills to counter MRCA.

RSAF( Royal saudi air force ) : EF-2000 Eurofighter
Kwaiti Air force: F/A 18 hornet C/D
UAE Air force: F-16 Block 60
Indonesian Air force:Rafale & JAS39 gripen being Considered to be bought.
Regards:

Please give me a reliable link saying that PAF would acquire a matching western MRCA after the Indians make their decision. Please read earlier in this thread that PAF has already passed over a few western options in favour of Chinese aircraft due to cost and geo-political considerations. The deal is that apart from J10, no other fighter is available for the PAF, not even the J11. And the J10 will only arrive in the PAF when China is able to sort out its engine issues and upgrade the aircraft to a true 4.5 gen fighter which is also not guaranteed by 2012-13 so that jets can start arriving by 2014-15.

 

[Storm Force]

PAF recent or future gap vis a v IAF is nothing to do with mindset USA or GOP..

The fact is simply the FINANCIAL GAP between the 2 states is very large growing to enormous. If the 2 SOUTH ASIAN states maintain current trajectory in GDP growth by 2020 the GDP gap will be 10-1 as oppose 7-1 today.

Thats in one single decade.

Just imagine if IAF goes shopping with $100 billion in 2020 AND PAF cheif goes to same market with just $10 billion.

F16/52 gripens Typhoons and Rafael are all available to PAF just as easily as to india. Nobody has embargoed GOP.

THE PAF just don,t have the financial means to buy $80-90m dollar planes.

Thats why the Thunder at $12m each is so vital to future PAF doctrines

 

[rajeev]

Hi,

IAF already has numerical superiority---a 100 su 30's----pak yet to look at an operational FC 20----so why should india worry at this time or even later---no reason to---. They don't even have a successful operational engine for that aircraft.

Here is what my analysis is---think what you want---with the recent changes and Kerry Luger bill---I believe paf had dug a deep grave for pakistan---paf is going to present pakistan on a platter to india---this organization---the paf is so screwed up mentally with its tunnel vision and a total lack of understanding of what was happening around it---they have chopped the knees off pakistan---just because of their fascination with the F 16 blk 52---and not getting to the right equipment in a timely fashion.

Some people might come swinging at me at how great the fighter jocks are and how they will lay their lives---and I don't doubt them for a moment---but my reservations of paf's abilities are here to stay.

So Mr Rajeev----india has nothing to worry about---as long they have the PAF heirarchy to face in its current mindset----india won't have to do much---paf will make sure of that.

Yes, we will have military quantity and quality advantage w.r.t Pakistan. But for India, the Chinese threat is larger.

For now, China has numbers in any kind of military hardware. We have quality. So the moment it is realized as you are saying that J-10 is superior to Eurofighter - there will be lot of panic. Because one thing that China can do very good - mass produce.

Infact, they (China) will massproduce the fighter quadrants the time it takes for India to just order new planes. And realisticly what else can India to counter that then - F22 is not available to india. PAKFA is only in works and it will take some time. LCA has release date of NEVER and FOREVER. So it is not going to get produced anytime soon.

If I am a pakistani, I will try to get numbers on pakistani side- any 3rd or 4th gen sold by other countries that are retired should be acquired in large numbers. This would increase more combat even though, Pak will lose more planes in case of the war. Remember, the objective of the war is to win not to calculate how many men are lost. Then sign an agreement with China framed like India-Russian treaty of 1971 and focus on growth. But realistically, for growth the Pakistan taliban has to go away and Pakistan will have to get rid of crazy mullah lawfully or politically. Also, if I am super smart, I will try to friend Iran to use against India.(To my knowledge, Iran is far more friendlier with India than with Pak). Pakistan will also have to find a voice of itself by getting ridself of America from its soil but that would mean forsaking 7.5 billion$. I dont know what establishment thinks (military, ISI and govt)?