MRCA Competition-threat to PAF?

[batmannow]

my honest suggestions.

@batmannow

kindly drop this china thing from every single post of yours. China is not our father nor part of north east pakistan. Relying on China for every other solution is a very very bad strategy for us in a long run. We have to stand up on our own feet.

@indianrabbit

You have some irrelevant arguments which could be relevant without those usual rantings by indians.

sory to remind you, dear Growler!
i guss, you already forget, that GREAT CHINA is our stratagic partnerr
& i hope it will, remain till the world vanishes, some day!
i guss, you are suffereing from some kinda, westrn phobia, bro plz clear your mind after decads of mistrust, & frud by the WEST , pakistani nation , & pakistani defence forces, dont really seems , to see any goods commings, from the west!

And they hounr & respect, our GREAT friend CHINA, who helped us in every hour of our need!
if you still insists, we can go to polls, on the fourm , how many of us did really like WEST+USA , how many !vote for CHINA!
YES china is the backbone of PAKISTANI DEFENCE, & PAKISTAN will keep gurding , CHINAs intersts , & it will remain till this worlds ends!
bythe way, i will be happy to see , china starting its, OWN MMMRCA,
tender open for every one, i guss then , INDA will realize that , they cant find a manufacturare of toy planes, comming to india.
well thanks for you kind advice!
i already serve my, country ! & i know the importance of CHINA,s important role, to let us become , only muslim, nation on earth , armed with N-ARMS!
No, westrn country would had done this for us?
thanks

 

[Joodi]

That would be more of a blow to PAF then to India... your joint ventures would go to dustbin if china goes to venture out...

I am not downgrading China. China is highly developed, I am telling you China will never give access to high grade technology to pakistan... she will keep you happy with small toys and will play with big toys herself....

China is just using pakistan... Your JF17 and J10 is just a crap, and that's the reality, its just to intimidate India, which it is failing to ....

Why does not China use JF 17 extensively?? you would say it is designed for PAF, yes it is designed for PAF, a cheap machine to fool PAF... i assume if you ask PAF pilots they would tell you the truth of JF 17, they would say Mirages and F16 are much better then the JF17

Here is a comparitive analysis of JF-17 versus LCA Tejas, judge ur self the positives and negatives of both aircrafts ur self .

SPECIFICATION (JF-17 Thunder)

Type: Multirole Fighter
Plan induction 150 confirmed (250 likely)
Production status: 4 delevered to PAF
Empty weight: 6,320kg
Fuel capacity: 2,300kg (5175 lb)
Max take-off: 12,700kg
Max. speed: Mach 1.8, at high altitude
Combat range: 1355 km
ferry range: 3000 km
Service ceiling: 16,700 m,
G-limit: +8.5
Thrust/Wt Ratio 0.96
Wing loading: 270 kg/m²
Engine: 1× RD-93 turbofan, Russian
1 x WS-13, Chinese (future option)

Thrust: RD-93: 49.4kN dry/81.4kN
WS-13: 56.75kN dry/ 86.37kN

Max. Pay load: 3800 kg
Storage points: 7 hard points,
Cannon: 23mm double barrel canon
BVR-AAM: Chinese: SD-10, (range 70 km)
Non- chinese:
R-Darter, AIM-120C, AIM-7F

Weapons: WVR-AAM: Chinese: PL-8, PL-9
Non-Chinese: AIM-9P, A-darter,
AIM-9L/M Sidewinder,

Air to surface munitions:
Pakistani: H-2 glide bomb (60 km)
- H-4 powered glide bomb (120 km)
- Ra'ad cruise mssile (350 km)
- HAFR-2 Anti-Runway bomb

- Anti radiation missiles
- Laser guided weapons
- Programmable delays cluster bombs
- Runway penetration bombs
- General purpose bombs
- Training bombs

Anti-ship missile:
Non chinese: AM-39 Exocet, harpoon
Chinese: C-101, FL-7

Unit cost 15 million $US
Fatigue life 25 yrs, 4000 fly. Hrs.


SPECIFICATIONS (LCA Tejas):

Type: Multirole fighter
Plan induction 220 IAF & 40 indian navy
Production status: in development phase
Empty weight: 5,500 kg
Fuel capacity:
Max take-off:
Max. speed: Mach 1.8, at high altitude
Combat range: 850 km
ferry range: 2000 km
Service ceiling: 15200m
G-limit: +9, till now only 5G achieved
Thrust/Wt Ratio: 1.07
Wing loading: 221.4 kg/m²
Engine: 1× GE F404 turbofan or
1× GTX-35VS Kaveri turbofan

Thrust: GE F404: dry/83.2kN
Kaveri: 52.0kN dry/80.5kN

Max. Pay load: 4000kg
Storage points: 8 hard points
Cannon: 23mm double barrel canon

BVR-AAM: not known
Weapons: WVR-AAM:
R-77, R-73


Air to surface munitions:
- anti-ship missiles
- laser-guided bombs
- unguided bombs
- cluster bombs
- cluster bom

Unit cost: 31-32 million $US

 

[gaurysh]

Here is a comparitive analysis of JF-17 versus LCA Tejas, judge ur self the positives and negatives of both aircrafts ur self .

SPECIFICATION (JF-17 Thunder)

Type: Multirole Fighter
Plan induction 150 confirmed (250 likely)
Production status: 4 delevered to PAF
Empty weight: 6,320kg
Fuel capacity: 2,300kg (5175 lb)
Max take-off: 12,700kg
Max. speed: Mach 1.8, at high altitude
Combat range: 1355 km
ferry range: 3000 km
Service ceiling: 16,700 m,
G-limit: +8.5
Thrust/Wt Ratio 0.96
Wing loading: 270 kg/m²
Engine: 1× RD-93 turbofan, Russian
1 x WS-13, Chinese (future option)

Thrust: RD-93: 49.4kN dry/81.4kN
WS-13: 56.75kN dry/ 86.37kN

Max. Pay load: 3800 kg
Storage points: 7 hard points,
Cannon: 23mm double barrel canon
BVR-AAM: Chinese: SD-10, (range 70 km)
Non- chinese:
R-Darter, AIM-120C, AIM-7F

Weapons: WVR-AAM: Chinese: PL-8, PL-9
Non-Chinese: AIM-9P, A-darter,
AIM-9L/M Sidewinder,

Air to surface munitions:
Pakistani: H-2 glide bomb (60 km)
- H-4 powered glide bomb (120 km)
- Ra'ad cruise mssile (350 km)
- HAFR-2 Anti-Runway bomb

- Anti radiation missiles
- Laser guided weapons
- Programmable delays cluster bombs
- Runway penetration bombs
- General purpose bombs
- Training bombs

Anti-ship missile:
Non chinese: AM-39 Exocet, harpoon
Chinese: C-101, FL-7

Unit cost 15 million $US
Fatigue life 25 yrs, 4000 fly. Hrs.


SPECIFICATIONS (LCA Tejas):

Type: Multirole fighter
Plan induction 220 IAF & 40 indian navy
Production status: in development phase
Empty weight: 5,500 kg
Fuel capacity:
Max take-off:
Max. speed: Mach 1.8, at high altitude
Combat range: 850 km
ferry range: 2000 km
Service ceiling: 15200m
G-limit: +9, till now only 5G achieved
Thrust/Wt Ratio: 1.07
Wing loading: 221.4 kg/m²
Engine: 1× GE F404 turbofan or
1× GTX-35VS Kaveri turbofan

Thrust: GE F404: dry/83.2kN
Kaveri: 52.0kN dry/80.5kN

Max. Pay load: 4000kg
Storage points: 8 hard points
Cannon: 23mm double barrel canon

BVR-AAM: not known
Weapons: WVR-AAM:
R-77, R-73


Air to surface munitions:
- anti-ship missiles
- laser-guided bombs
- unguided bombs
- cluster bombs
- cluster bom

Unit cost: 31-32 million $US

Joodi

We are not discussing LCA here, we are talking MRCA... Try to compare the made in china JF17 with MRCA when deal is finalised

 

[Sapper]

Joodi

We are not discussing LCA here, we are talking MRCA... Try to compare the made in china JF17 with MRCA when deal is finalised

Well ... even JF-17 should not be compared against MRCA.
JF-17s primary role is not to counter MRCA, instead, that role will be fulfilled by F16-52s and FC-20.

It will be better suited for discussion at hand if we compare these two to the possible acquisition of MRCA by India

 

[gaurysh]

again, why you are pointing "THUNDFERs" i , guss that has been the very reason why, india put that MRCA , thing that deep down inside , thier outdated brains ,all of the past retired AMs of IAF , had the FEELINGS , INDIA can never be able to have,its holy CRAP LCA, & it will never ever can even come, near to thunders, so they simply , went for the MRCA?
WELL, N-BOMB isnt a toy?
BABAR, HATAF 2,3, ! SHAHEENS this stuff , still not just cheep machines?
i guss, if ever CHINA put up, a mrca RACE, pakistan would be the direct bnficry!

India LCA programme is not a success because India lack the focus for the project... and IAF also don seem to be that interested for LCA, the thing with India is that its focus is on buying latest hi tech defense equipments from Europe Russia and the US, so while doing this its reducing the focus of being self reliant on defense equipment which is not good but still it is increasing India's defense capabilities.

But on other hand Pakistan has to focus on JF17 joint venture with china because its the only solution for pakistan and its cheap also...

i want to know how much contribution there has been from Pakistan for JF 17 ?????

 

[rajeev]

sory to remind you, dear Growler!
i guss, you already forget, that GREAT CHINA is our stratagic partnerr
& i hope it will, remain till the world vanishes, some day!
i guss, you are suffereing from some kinda, westrn phobia, bro plz clear your mind after decads of mistrust, & frud by the WEST , pakistani nation , & pakistani defence forces, dont really seems , to see any goods commings, from the west!

Yes, but everytime US comes around, Pak gives away everything and gets ready to serve her.

And they hounr & respect, our GREAT friend CHINA, who helped us in every hour of our need!

When was it - 65?, 71?, 89? , Kargil?

YES china is the backbone of PAKISTANI DEFENCE, & PAKISTAN will keep gurding , CHINAs intersts , & it will remain till this worlds ends!

Only when Pak had no other choice. When got an opportunity to get
F16's, it did so and also plan activating to buy additional F16's.

bythe way, i will be happy to see , china starting its, OWN MMMRCA,

But who do you think are selling to them - Europeans, US. May be Russia - but not the cutting edge - no PAKFA partnership for them!

tender open for every one, i guss then , INDA will realize that , they cant find a manufacturare of toy planes, comming to india.
well thanks for you kind advice!

yes, Indian LCA is only getting built. But India is getting an access to almost any plane they want - except F22 and F35. Rest all the top of the line planes are available for sale to India

i already serve my, country ! & i know the importance of CHINA,s important role, to let us become , only muslim, nation on earth , armed with N-ARMS!
No, westrn country would had done this for us?
thanks

I dont why you glorify Pak as muslim nation in the world, etc., etc. Pakistanis are Pakistani first and Muslim later- just like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Egypt.

Why 2 add religion to geo-politics when obviously that has nothing to do here.

 

[Sapper]

India LCA programme is not a success because India lack the focus for the project... and IAF also don seem to be that interested for LCA, the thing with India is that its focus is on buying latest hi tech defense equipments from Europe Russia and the US, so while doing this its reducing the focus of being self reliant on defense equipment which is not good but still it is increasing India's defense capabilities.

But on other hand Pakistan has to focus on JF17 joint venture with china because its the only solution for pakistan and its cheap also...

i want to know how much contribution there has been from Pakistan for JF 17 ?????

If you mean to compare India's contribution in LCA and Pakistan's contribution in JF-17, then we must acknowledge that India is far ahead. But the reason for that is not because we wanted JF-17 to be on-time rather than get late (like LCA) because if JF-17 gets late, PAF is doomed.

The details of JF-17 can be found on JF-17 threads, since this is MRCA thread, we better stick to topic, which was what i was intending to do in my earlier post.

 

[rajeev]

India LCA programme is not a success because India lack the focus for the project... and IAF also don seem to be that interested for LCA, the thing with India is that its focus is on buying latest hi tech defense equipments from Europe Russia and the US, so while doing this its reducing the focus of being self reliant on defense equipment which is not good but still it is increasing India's defense capabilities.

But on other hand Pakistan has to focus on JF17 joint venture with china because its the only solution for pakistan and its cheap also...

i want to know how much contribution there has been from Pakistan for JF 17 ?????

I dont think it is focus. It is not like there is only one guy working in DRDO who works for MRCA and runs back works for LCA design and does something else.

India is learning build one and that is why so many failures. though India does not want to admit it, it was impacted US sanctions in 1998. Let us hope it will bear fruit in next 5 years. May be recent rush to join so many aircraft projects and the MRCA might help it.

If we happen to choose Rafale, then there is no doubt that there is something critically lacking in LCA that India wants to fix.

 

[Hulk]

my honest suggestions.

@batmannow

kindly drop this china thing from every single post of yours. China is not our father nor part of north east pakistan. Relying on China for every other solution is a very very bad strategy for us in a long run. We have to stand up on our own feet.

@indianrabbit

You have some irrelevant arguments which could be relevant without those usual rantings by indians.

Dude I felt very bad writing all that, I am here to make friends not otherwise. Batmannow has not been using the right language in the forum. I still feel I should have exercised my restrain. I will take care in future.

 

[batmannow]

Yes, but everytime US comes around, Pak gives away everything and gets ready to serve her.



When was it - 65?, 71?, 89? , Kargil?



Only when Pak had no other choice. When got an opportunity to get
F16's, it did so and also plan activating to buy additional F16's.



But who do you think are selling to them - Europeans, US. May be Russia - but not the cutting edge - no PAKFA partnership for them!



yes, Indian LCA is only getting built. But India is getting an access to almost any plane they want - except F22 and F35. Rest all the top of the line planes are available for sale to India



I dont why you glorify Pak as muslim nation in the world, etc., etc. Pakistanis are Pakistani first and Muslim later- just like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Egypt.

Why 2 add religion to geo-politics when obviously that has nothing to do here.

Dear,rajeev
it wasnt inteded for you,, so back off!
the matter of fact is this that , this thread is bieng hijacked, & all the crap is bieng posted here accept , the subject!

its a well known fact, that PAKISTAN is the only living , N-ARMED muslim state, if you llike iit or not!
you dont have any knowledge , about ISLAM , so plz dont digg in !

Indian LCA is only getting built. But India is getting an access to almost any plane they want

yap, 25 years of dreaming , still show it on the independence day, on 10- wheelrs!

Only when Pak had no other choice. When got an opportunity to get
F16's, it did so and also plan activating to buy additional F16's
kindly show the , IAF source!

But who do you think are selling to them - Europeans, US. May be Russia - but not the cutting edge - no PAKFA partnership for them!

YOU NAME, IT THEY GIVEN money on interts, most of the countries you mentioned , are begging for CHINA, s investments!

When was it - 65?, 71?, 89? , Kargil?
last time , we cam eyeball to eye ball, iit was CHINA who , sends like 100 f7s to us !
bythe way, they are with us all the time, its not important to mention , cause its secret!
Yes, but everytime US comes around, Pak gives away everything and gets ready to serve her.
its the most funny thing you said , even not answer , better!


SO WHEN YOU WILL COME BACK TO TOPIC & STOP BASHING PAK-CHINA FRIENDSHIP!

 

[gaurysh]

Dear,rajeev
it wasnt inteded for you,, so back off!
the matter of fact is this that , this thread is bieng hijacked, & all the crap is bieng posted here accept , the subject!

its a well known fact, that PAKISTAN is the only living , N-ARMED muslim state, if you llike iit or not!
you dont have any knowledge , about ISLAM , so plz dont digg in !

Indian LCA is only getting built. But India is getting an access to almost any plane they want

yap, 25 years of dreaming , still show it on the independence day, on 10- wheelrs!

Only when Pak had no other choice. When got an opportunity to get
F16's, it did so and also plan activating to buy additional F16's
kindly show the , IAF source!

But who do you think are selling to them - Europeans, US. May be Russia - but not the cutting edge - no PAKFA partnership for them!

YOU NAME, IT THEY GIVEN money on interts, most of the countries you mentioned , are begging for CHINA, s investments!

When was it - 65?, 71?, 89? , Kargil?
last time , we cam eyeball to eye ball, iit was CHINA who , sends like 100 f7s to us !
bythe way, they are with us all the time, its not important to mention , cause its secret!
Yes, but everytime US comes around, Pak gives away everything and gets ready to serve her.
its the most funny thing you said , even not answer , better!


SO WHEN YOU WILL COME BACK TO TOPIC & STOP BASHING PAK-CHINA FRIENDSHIP!

Dude you are seriously out of your mind. rajeev was replying to your posts... you yourself are going offtopic seriously... take a break man. i understand your patriotism....

We are talking about MRCA here... i think along with PAF you also are getting really threatened by it.... don know what will happen to you when FGFA deal will be around

 

[batmannow]

Dude you are seriously out of your mind. rajeev was replying to your posts... you yourself are going offtopic seriously... take a break man. i understand your patriotism....

We are talking about MRCA here... i think along with PAF you also are getting really threatened by it.... don know what will happen to you when FGFA deal will be around

hey, dudi!
i wasnt , replying to him, just go & check back!
so why he , replied to my post, which was not intended for him, its for Growler!

post before, your eys are open!
thats wht i was talking about, & its the dam thrid time, for now come back to topic!
i think along with PAF you also are getting really threatened by it.... don know what will happen to you when FGFA deal will be around

sory, to say!
we are enjoying this all, your dam MRCA , thing , i certnly hope , after your full & last dececion , we will happly to test a ICBM , with comfort, for all!

 

[gaurysh]

hey, dudi!
i wasnt , replying to him, just go & check back!
so why he , replied to my post, which was not intended for him, its for Growler!

post before, your eys are open!
thats wht i was talking about, & its the dam thrid time, for now come back to topic!
i think along with PAF you also are getting really threatened by it.... don know what will happen to you when FGFA deal will be around

sory, to say!
we are enjoying this all, your dam MRCA , thing , i certnly hope , after your full & last dececion , we will happly test a ICBM , with comfort, for all!

MRCA will not be a dead end for IAF or for Indian defense buddy......

U seriously need a break... U feel we will sit idle after MRCA....

 

[batmannow]

MRCA will not be a dead end for IAF or for Indian defense buddy......

U seriously need a break... U feel we will sit idle after MRCA....

i am , not freakn out here buddo!
sory, all of you & the others indians on this thread were just , desperatly trying to , make MRCA nightmare for PAKISTAN & pakistanis, & as you see, we are enjoying it!
No doubt , MRCA is a well planned , defence move by, indian establisment, but let me, clear to you, we will see it in skies, where it will be tested for real!
pakistan also, have many options including ,, to target most of the IAF basses with , iits BABARs , SHAHEENs, HATAFs! & its not a dead end either?

enjoy the dinner, & come back, i will be there for you on the thread, to make you happy!

 

[MZUBAIR]

2010...is going to over......they r still confused wt they will buy.

I think decision will go in 2011 and they will get 126 jets after 2015.

PAF should buy more J-10B and improve JF-17 (New engine, AESA Radar and avonics) with the support of France.

In case they will decide MRCA, PAF would surely go for 40 to 60 Typhoon or Rafeal.

India MRCA Requests for Information (RFI) were issued in 2004. The RFIs were initially sent to four vendors: Dassault (Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2), Lockheed Martin (F-16C and D), Saab (JAS 39 Gripen) and Mikoyan (MiG-29OVT).

Due to the tendering process and delay in issuing the RFIs, Dassault decided to remove the Mirage 2000-5 from the bidding process and enter the Rafale in its place. The MiG-35 was entered in place of the prototype MiG-29OVT.
Eurofighter Typhoon also expressed interest in entering the bidding, and have entered their aircraft into the competition. The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet also joined the tendering.

Lets see, how much more delay
One thing which is encouraging that PAF is planning to acquire western jets to counter IAF.


ACM Interview

The PAF's other, already established, requirements include the development of the JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft, co-produced with China.

The PAF plans to eventually induct up to 250 JF-17 fighters, making the aircraft the backbone of its inventory. The first 'fully made in Pakistan' JF-17 is expected to be produced by the end of this year at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra, north of Islamabad. However, there is still a requirement for a more advanced fighter aircraft, as the PAF prepares to counter the future edge that may be acquired by the IAF once it completes the planned purchase of 126 multirole combat aircraft (MRCAs)

"We knew about this requirement of the Indian Air Force for 126 latest-generation fighter aircraft. Yes, it is an alarming development because when they get 126 such capable aircraft, then we also need to have something matching to counter that threat," ACM Qamar said.

For the PAF, not only will the induction of 14 used F-16 aircraft and 18 new F-16C/D aircraft figure prominently in narrowing the gap, but continuing negotiations with China to purchase up to 36 FC-20 fighter aircraft - designated the J-10 in China - will also play an important role.

ACM Qamar said the PAF has finalised the technical proposal for the FC-20 and informed the Chinese of its requirements.

"[The technical proposal] is more or less finalised now. There are some changes that are required, which [the Chinese] are making," he said.