More than 300 PAF Mirages & F-7s will be retired in future. A huge market indeed.

[silent hawk]

Iam really sorry but I get so frustrated at times reading those wish lists which for a country like Pakistan in its current state are not only unrealistic and unachievable but totally irrelevant.
Look at things my way. We have a perrenial shortage of electricity and water which is crippling our economy. On the flipside we have floods now every year for the last 3yrs causing loss in billions. And yet we dont have money to build the damned dams which will if not prevent the situation at least alleviate the problem and generate the electricity. Also just building one dam will allow you to dredge Tarbela and Mangla and improve their working lives by another 30 yrs. This to me is of far more importance than all the acquisitions by our armed forces bar Navy as their platforms take a decade to materialise and get personnel trained on
Coming to the issue of PAF
J10. PAF has evaluated the J10 repeatedly and by some accounts requested changes in design with institution of DSI and some other changes. The engine problem remains a big hurdle. There has recently been 1 or possibly 2 crashes and PAF personnel reported problems with J10 engines. Secondly to make it into PAF it has to compete with F16s which by any stretch of imagination offer you more and although risk prone are established in PAF. Any war in our theatre will be short and therefre sanctions with enough numbers can be borne with some difficulties. There maybe other aspects which might deter the US from sanctioning us now.
TWIN ENGINES:
There is no denying the need for 2-3 squadrons of heavies for maritime surveillance and air superiority roles. The US and EU platforms are all above 120million a pop and therefore out of reckoning. The spectre of sanctions has not yet settled enough fo4 PAF to drown its precious reso7rces into a sanctionable resource. The SU35 is a gem of a plane but the fickleness of Russian relations with Pakistan leaves us in doubt about this. The Chinese Jseries is a possibility keeping multiple factors in mind but will not happen without Russian approval.
The 5th generation fighter: The J31 is the only viable option at the moment as all other assets are in design phase and wont be ready till 2030. BUT CATIC is looking for a partner to sink money into the project and PAF wants to avoid taking that risk and wants to negotiate when they have a mature product. Now whether this happens or not and whether something else materialises in the mdan time is something that cannot be said. So PAFs decision to procure heavies not only depends on funding but also on the availability of a suitable 5th generation pla5form. If we are looking at J31 being ready by 2023 then with more new and old F16s we can bid3 our time JFT might have completed its cycle of production and PAF will have a trained resource to divert t9wards this project. If the project is delayed beyond 2025-27 then there maybe merit in buying twins either from China or Russia and bolster defences with that. The recent acquisition of F16s if true may point to that. However the situation is pretty fluid and needs to be watched closely. This is my personal assessment and can be argued against if you so desire. However lists by themselves to me are a waste of time and effort. Hope this explains my position.
Regards
A

AoA

Believe me I am very aware of Pakistans poor financial position and my solutions are likewise.

5 Sqn of F-16 - we already have 4 add the 8 being offered so basically I am saying no more F-16s.

8 Sqn of JF-17 would absorb the 150 already ordered so no financial affect here.

3 Sqn of Su-35 or J-16 - agreed that this is tricky but in the emerging Pak - Russia scenario it is possible that Russia agrees to sell us the Su-35 or allow China to sell us the J-16. We would be protecting their interests as well. Would like to have another high tech air superiority fighter instead of relying totally on US aircrafts. We need some twin engine fighters so that they can go deep. Raise the nuclear threshold. Help us exploit the advantage we have in the Arabian Sea. Once again the options I have mentioned are the most cost effective.

3 Sqn of JH-7B These are the most cost effective bombers and they are available. The cost of these aircrafts is worth it because it generates the required deterrence through use of conventional weapons. This brings stability to the region because it avoids the use of nuclear weapons. It gives us the offensive - offensive capability we seek.

Regards

 

[Muhammad Omar]

AoA

Believe me I am very aware of Pakistans poor financial position and my solutions are likewise.

5 Sqn of F-16 - we already have 4 add the 8 being offered so basically I am saying no more F-16s.

8 Sqn of JF-17 would absorb the 150 already ordered so no financial affect here.

3 Sqn of Su-35 or J-16 - agreed that this is tricky but in the emerging Pak - Russia scenario it is possible that Russia agrees to sell us the Su-35 or allow China to sell us the J-16. We would be protecting their interests as well. Would like to have another high tech air superiority fighter instead of relying totally on US aircrafts. We need some twin engine fighters so that they can go deep. Raise the nuclear threshold. Help us exploit the advantage we have in the Arabian Sea. Once again the options I have mentioned are the most cost effective.

3 Sqn of JH-7B These are the most cost effective bombers and they are available. The cost of these aircrafts is worth it because it generates the required deterrence through use of conventional weapons. This brings stability to the region because it avoids the use of nuclear weapons. It gives us the offensive - offensive capability we seek.

Regards

but just assumption

if we Get 3 squads of Su-35 or even J-16/J-11D why would PAF need JH-7B?

su-35/J-11D will be still better then JH-7B can be used to protect coastal area can tackle MIG-29 even Su-30MKI mixture of Su35/J-11D with Block III of JFT for naval support can be used....
1 squad will be enough for Coastal area with some squads of JFT rest 2 squads can be used to counter India from east...
rather then going for Su-35/J-16 and JH-7B both at the same time we should choose 1 and for other 3 squads we should look for Multi-role striker jets with AESA (Superior/equal to Block52 F-16's)

 

[araz]

AoA

Believe me I am very aware of Pakistans poor financial position and my solutions are likewise.

5 Sqn of F-16 - we already have 4 add the 8 being offered so basically I am saying no more F-16s.



3 Sqn of JH-7B These are the most cost effective bombers and they are available. The cost of these aircrafts is worth it because it generates the required deterrence through use of conventional weapons. This brings stability to the region because it avoids the use of nuclear weapons. It gives us the offensive - offensive capability we seek.

Regards

JH7 B is no longer in production if the SDF is to be believed. PAF has evaluated the platform and found it to be deficient so if the Chinese are no longer inducting it and it is not in production then it is not going to be suitable for PAF. Either the J series if allowed or the SU 35 is going to be inducted if J31 is too far away from induction. Otherwise in my humble opinion it is going to be more F 16s as allowed. PAF has a plan of 40 more which are required to be fulfilled either with new or MLUed ones. This is the most viable and economic solution to our problems.
A

 

[nadeemkhan110]

150 JF17's will be delivered till 2018 currently having 54...

That would be highly unlikely at current rate of induction!!

Well many PAF officials told that the production rate per years will be increased by 25 jet and some JFT's are also being build in China .... so you never know we will find out this in 2018

don't worry China will deliver fifty more JF-17 Thunder fighters to Pakistan, over the next three years.
This was stated by the Head of Chinese Aircraft Industry while talking to Peoples Daily in Beijing.
Under the contract signed between the two countries, Pakistan will receive a total 110 JF-17 Thunder aircrafts from China. The aircraft is a symbol of friendship between Pakistan and China
China to deliver 50 JF-17 fighters to Pakistan in three years - thenews.com.pk

 

[Omega007]

don't worry China will deliver fifty more JF-17 Thunder fighters to Pakistan, over the next three years.
This was stated by the Head of Chinese Aircraft Industry while talking to Peoples Daily in Beijing.
Under the contract signed between the two countries, Pakistan will receive a total 110 JF-17 Thunder aircrafts from China. The aircraft is a symbol of friendship between Pakistan and China
China to deliver 50 JF-17 fighters to Pakistan in three years - thenews.com.pk

Ok,I got that.Thanks by the way.

 

[nadeemkhan110]

Ok,I got that.Thanks by the way.

I am not sure but I Think PAF plan is to keep 250 JF-17

because as per PAF chief JF-17 suits our needs

 

[majid mehmood]

guys
i have seen that many members here want a large fighter with good range
jf 17 has combat range of 1350 km
we want to give punch to Mumbai as they will do with Karachi
so the distance between Karachi to Mumbai is 1400km without being detected (by sea) so if we can build a missile that could or co develop a sea to air missile with china that have a range of 800 km than (as yj 12 has a range 500km so no problem in developing 800km Missile) so it means jft would have a combat range of 2150 km which means almost equilalent to su 35 in range of course it cannot carry 8 heavy missile at a time but atleast 3 or 1
even if we have su 35 which good range which will attack Mumbai inside so it will become prone to enemy fires and we might loss many planes but if we have jf 17 and a 800 km anti ship missile it will not only save costs but would protect our planes

 

[nadeemkhan110]

guys
i have seen that many members here want a large fighter with good range
jf 17 has combat range of 1350 km
we want to give punch to Mumbai as they will do with Karachi
so the distance between Karachi to Mumbai is 1400km without being detected (by sea) so if we can build a missile that could or co develop a sea to air missile with china that have a range of 800 km than (as yj 12 has a range 500km so no problem in developing 800km Missile) so it means jft would have a combat range of 2150 km which means almost equilalent to su 35 in range of course it cannot carry 8 heavy missile at a time but atleast 3 or 1
even if we have su 35 which good range which will attack Mumbai inside so it will become prone to enemy fires and we might loss many planes but if we have jf 17 and a 800 km anti ship missile it will not only save costs but would protect our planes

and why there is a silence on su-35 deal?

 

[danger007]

guys
i have seen that many members here want a large fighter with good range
jf 17 has combat range of 1350 km
we want to give punch to Mumbai as they will do with Karachi
so the distance between Karachi to Mumbai is 1400km without being detected (by sea) so if we can build a missile that could or co develop a sea to air missile with china that have a range of 800 km than (as yj 12 has a range 500km so no problem in developing 800km Missile) so it means jft would have a combat range of 2150 km which means almost equilalent to su 35 in range of course it cannot carry 8 heavy missile at a time but atleast 3 or 1
even if we have su 35 which good range which will attack Mumbai inside so it will become prone to enemy fires and we might loss many planes but if we have jf 17 and a 800 km anti ship missile it will not only save costs but would protect our planes

are you nuts or what??? JF 17 entering into Mumbai air space without being detected. ???? I guess you said FGFA useless because su 35 can detect it from 150km or so.... but not vice versa... and leaving the aadvantage of 5 th gen Radar, Avionics, weapon package... lolz man.... you have to come across Indian Naval Air wing and IAF to reach Mumbai. ... please don't make fool of your self...

 

[silent hawk]

JH7 B is no longer in production if the SDF is to be believed. PAF has evaluated the platform and found it to be deficient so if the Chinese are no longer inducting it and it is not in production then it is not going to be suitable for PAF. Either the J series if allowed or the SU 35 is going to be inducted if J31 is too far away from induction. Otherwise in my humble opinion it is going to be more F 16s as allowed. PAF has a plan of 40 more which are required to be fulfilled either with new or MLUed ones. This is the most viable and economic solution to our problems.
A

AoA

This is news for me for I think CATIC is still offering this to us. Yes PAF evaluated the aircraft and rejected it because it was not a good fighter. To acquire this PAF needs to be convinced that it needs a fighter bomber. PDF could be a opinion maker. As long as we remain F-16 centric we will be defensive. PAF needs an deep strike offensive element in order to raise the nuclear threshold and ensure deterrence through conventional means.

Regards

@MastanKhan could you comment on JH7B no longer being in production?

but just assumption

if we Get 3 squads of Su-35 or even J-16/J-11D why would PAF need JH-7B?

su-35/J-11D will be still better then JH-7B can be used to protect coastal area can tackle MIG-29 even Su-30MKI mixture of Su35/J-11D with Block III of JFT for naval support can be used....
1 squad will be enough for Coastal area with some squads of JFT rest 2 squads can be used to counter India from east...
rather then going for Su-35/J-16 and JH-7B both at the same time we should choose 1 and for other 3 squads we should look for Multi-role striker jets with AESA (Superior/equal to Block52 F-16's)

AoA

Because a fighter cannot do what a bomber does with the same efficiency.

The JH-7B carries 9000 Kg of ordinance while the Su -35 carries 6900 with 50% internal fuel

Having a strike element with 9000 Kg of bombs greatly reduces the package size.

I remember Sir Qaiser's lecture - PAF concentrates more on the mean rather than the end.

Regards

 

[majid mehmood]

are you nuts or what??? JF 17 entering into Mumbai air space without being detected. ???? I guess you said FGFA useless because su 35 can detect it from 150km or so.... but not vice versa... and leaving the aadvantage of 5 th gen Radar, Avionics, weapon package... lolz man.... you have to come across Indian Naval Air wing and IAF to reach Mumbai. ... please don't make fool of your self...

actually u didint got my point
firstly jf 17 will flow from sea
secondly it will not enter the airspace of mumbai it will be the missile that will hit the core target (eg aircraft carrier )
thirdly it will shoot from 600 km far away from mumbai airspace it would be very hard to detect a tiny aircraft from 600-700 km while very easy detect or even awacs are there to detect large ships or houses of submarine or aircraft carrier

when all main targets are destroyed then paf can send su 35 to reach mumbai to destroy more targets

 

[Basel]

actually u didint got my point
firstly jf 17 will flow from sea
secondly it will not enter the airspace of mumbai it will be the missile that will hit the core target (eg aircraft carrier )
thirdly it will shoot from 600 km far away from mumbai airspace it would be very hard to detect a tiny aircraft from 600-700 km while very easy detect or even awacs are there to detect large ships or houses of submarine or aircraft carrier

when all main targets are destroyed then paf can send su 35 to reach mumbai to destroy more targets

JF-17 can't carry Babar CM & there is no ALCM variant of Babar, so its not possible to for JFTs to launch standoff munitions from more then 350 kms.

 

[majid mehmood]

JF-17 can't carry Babar CM & there is no ALCM variant of Babar, so its not possible to for JFTs to launch standoff munitions from more then 350 kms.

didnt u read my above post

 

[black-hawk_101]

Highly unlikely that Pakistan will go for Rafaels and Grippen when we have JF-17 Block III almost equal to Grippen

Not equal at all.

If ME starts to support then PAF can easily buy:
50 Rafaels (Not Problem if IAF is also getting)
50 EF-2000s
50 Grippen NGs
32 Block-52 F-16s (I think PAF is getting it)

 

[abdulbarijan]

Not equal at all.

If ME starts to support then PAF can easily buy:
50 Rafaels (Not Problem if IAF is also getting)
50 EF-2000s
50 Grippen NGs
32 Block-52 F-16s (I think PAF is getting it)

You can scratch Rafales, EF-2000's, Gripens off your list, all of these platforms have been evaluated at one point or another and deemed too expensive or in case of gripen deemed "too American" --- that is if I've my history right ...

Blk-52's ... well one could make a case for them ... but are the things ideal with Pak-US relations ... does the US need us in a way it needed us back post 9/11 .. what is the sway of India in Washington DC etc etc. all of these things will contribute in what type of F-16's we get and in how much numbers we get them ...

The most ideal case for PAF would be 2 squadrons ... as it would meet their 110 F-16 goal ... so all we've gotta do is wait and watch ... things will become alot more clear after the new president of the US is elected ...