More than 300 PAF Mirages & F-7s will be retired in future. A huge market indeed.

[silent hawk]

How true are the rumors that US is offering local production of F16s for the nuclear deal? If true then going for additional 150 F16s makes most sense.

AoA
We should procure based on our needs and not what is being offered.
The F-16s do not have the maneuverability of the Su-35 nor the range and load carrying capacity of the JH-7B.
Then there is the issue of reliance on US equipment.
PAF at present is looking at a two plane airforce (JF-17 and F-16)
I would like a 4 plane airforce. We can manage the logistics and gives us much more flexibility and capability.
Regards

 

[black-hawk_101]

well PAF will only keep at maximum 4 types of Jets, more Types means more various spare parts, maintenance issues, training, refurbishing, upgrades more types of training Jets required etc, so less types = always better, F-16s, JF-17s, J-31 & 1 More type, whichever PAF will select of available options.

J-31 is not soon.

So, F-16s, JF-17s, EF-2000 & Rafaels are good choice. But I think PAF will opt for Grippen too if ME starts to supply funds like they are doing for Egypt, Libya, Jordan and may be some other countries. If happens then PAF should go for:
32 F-16s Block-52s
50 EF-2000
50 Rafaels
50 Grippen NG
45 Jordanian F-16s + Upgrade program for 45+16 Jordanian + 14 US supplied F-16s MLU-3/MLU-4 program.

Also go for trainers like:
100 Platius or any other Basic Trainer from US-Canada-EU
50 Alenia Aermacchi M-346 Master
50 BAE Hawks
20 used C-27s
20 used C-130s from ME (as it will be free)
8 P-3Cs from US (with 3 of them having Hawkeye-2000s fitted)
Helicopters that are available from ME to be brought in Pakistan

 

[fitpOsitive]

How true are the rumors that US is offering local production of F16s for the nuclear deal? If true then going for additional 150 F16s makes most sense.

no nuclear weapons, then what will we do with those F16s?

 

[monitor]

PAF should try to gain funds from privatization or may be from ME too. To buy:
32+ F-16s Block-52
50 EF-2000
50 Rafaels
50 Grippen NG



Not J-10C may be J-12 or J-13.

PAF with:
150 JF-17s
050 F-16 Block-52s
050 Grippen NG
050 Rafaels
050 EF-2000s
120 used F-16s (31PAF+28US+16Jordan+45Jordan)

Can easily achieve its goals of protecting Pakistan against India and attacking inside Afghanistan easily.

ME can easily support PAF For;
50 Grippen NG
50 Rafaels
50 EF-2000s

You foget to add su-35 and j-16 to your wet dream list for paf.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

J-31 is not soon.

So, F-16s, JF-17s, EF-2000 & Rafaels are good choice. But I think PAF will opt for Grippen too if ME starts to supply funds like they are doing for Egypt, Libya, Jordan and may be some other countries. If happens then PAF should go for:
32 F-16s Block-52s
50 EF-2000
50 Rafaels
50 Grippen NG
45 Jordanian F-16s + Upgrade program for 45+16 Jordanian + 14 US supplied F-16s MLU-3/MLU-4 program.

Also go for trainers like:
100 Platius or any other Basic Trainer from US-Canada-EU
50 Alenia Aermacchi M-346 Master
50 BAE Hawks
20 used C-27s
20 used C-130s from ME (as it will be free)
8 P-3Cs from US (with 3 of them having Hawkeye-2000s fitted)
Helicopters that are available from ME to be brought in Pakistan

Highly unlikely that Pakistan will go for Rafaels and Grippen when we have JF-17 Block III almost equal to Grippen

 

[wiseone2]

If we want to survive in the world. We have to arrange atleast 7 to 10 Billion $ for purchasing 150-200 jets. More money can also be arranged through indigenous means but govt needs to raise this amount of money immediately in a decade in step by step process. These procurement processes always take more than a decade.

$50 million for modern combat aircraft is too low

 

[Akasa]

J10C will be equipped with more advanced radar equipment, the radar range will be greater than the previous J10 variants radar detection range and the ability to simultaneously track 12 targets. Its cockpit will be set up with more advanced domestic diffraction HUD. In addition J10C will be equipped with more advanced PL-13 remote air to air missiles. The installation of a laser-guided pod and also will have the ability to launch a variety of laser-guided bombs, to further improve the precision strike capability against ground targets.

J-10C made its maiden flight on 24 DEC 2013.

Rumor are it could be a Twin Engine Fighter.

No, no, no, and no.

The J-10C refers to an upgraded variant of the J-10B with more sensors, a more powerful 137 kN WS-10B engine, and electronics upgrades, among other things. It is not twin-engined. It does have the ability to fire the PL-15, PL-10, PL-21 missiles, cockpit upgrades, and a wider selection of weapons, though.

This is J10-C

Attached Files:

No, that's a J-10B.

*******************************************************************************************************


Okay, this is ridiculous.

This has been explained to PDF-ers many times over. So, how should I put this?

Here...

CHINESE FLANKERS ARE NOT FOR EXPORT
Period.
End of discussion.
Fin.

Why?
A: Russia was upset to find out that the Chinese have made use of the Su-27-derived airframe design for their J-11B/D/15/16. Hence, Shenyang signed an agreement with Sukhoi stating that they will not export these fighter planes.

Does this mean every single variant won't be for export?
A: Yes.

What does this leave the PAF in terms of options?
A: J-10C, JH-7, J-31.

Will this change due to bilateral pressure?
A: No.

This sucks!
A: Well, can't say the Chinese like it either.

 

[Xulqi Moon]

J-31 is not soon.

So, F-16s, JF-17s, EF-2000 & Rafaels are good choice. But I think PAF will opt for Grippen too if ME starts to supply funds like they are doing for Egypt, Libya, Jordan and may be some other countries. If happens then PAF should go for:
32 F-16s Block-52s
50 EF-2000
50 Rafaels
50 Grippen NG
45 Jordanian F-16s + Upgrade program for 45+16 Jordanian + 14 US supplied F-16s MLU-3/MLU-4 program.

Also go for trainers like:
100 Platius or any other Basic Trainer from US-Canada-EU
50 Alenia Aermacchi M-346 Master
50 BAE Hawks
20 used C-27s
20 used C-130s from ME (as it will be free)
8 P-3Cs from US (with 3 of them having Hawkeye-2000s fitted)
Helicopters that are available from ME to be brought in Pakistan

Good on paper Finance Ministry will disagree will all this Rafaels will not be considered for PAF, India getting them plus they are costly in price & fuel consumption & maintenance + Issues with France for spare parts,as India is their favored customer, . Grippen NG useless option when having F-16 block 52+ , why purchase 2 planes of similar roles of different Type ? it increases costs, Engines, parts, deliveries etc new issues. thats why PAF is not taking J-10s. PAF will stick with F-16 & JF-17 for now, J-31 will be inducted after 2020, 1 more type will be selected, not sure which before 2016 ends. Ideally Speaking I would want PAF to get Best Jets & all of them there are, but we can't afford, too much Limitations we consider while purchasing, PAF procurement budget & yearly budget needs to Doubled instantly, its too low was 1.42 Billion Dollars only, we can't even purchase good SAMs in large quantity

 

[abdulbarijan]

Right now, Pakistan has around 18 squadrons which field combat aircrafts including the F-7P/PG's, JFT's, F-16's & Mirage III/V Roses ...
Out of these 18 squadrons ... 5 are F-7 P/PG squadrons (3 PG squadrons & 2P squadrons), 6 squadrons of Mirage III/V Roses (Bandits,Haiders,Tail choppers,Cobras, Tigers, War Hawks, Eagles, Ghazis,Talons, zarrars & night srike Eagles)
The rest are JFT squadrons (Minhas, Black spiders & panthers) and F-16 squadrons (falcons, griffins, arrows,sherdils)

So let's get this out of the way ... Pakistan doesn't have to replace "300 aircrafts" -- it has to replace '11 squadrons '
A squadron strength may deviate from 16-20 .. with that in mind, if we look as to how many squadrons JFT block I has formed ... that would be 3 on a squadron strength of 16-17 (depending on how much JFT's we have in CCS)
Going by todays numbers of 150 on order = We have the replacement of 6 squadrons in the bag ... which squadrons are replaced ... well most likely the F-7P's will be first ... and going by how much PAF is interested in anti-ship weapons and stand-off A2G weapons ... JFT can also replace the Mirage squadrons ...
So, now we only have to worry about replacing 5 squadrons ... the current strength of the F-16's is 76 and it forms 4 squadrons of PAF, if we were to go by the initial target of 110 aircrafts .. we can form two more squadrons of F-16's.
That leaves us with 3 squadrons to worry about ... with the EEZ and CPEC, most likely a heavy multirole fighter, now it could be the SU-35 or a even a deal with both the Russians and Chinese to provide some "solution", or we could go for J-10C and if the financial crunch continues, induct more JFT block III ...

The J-31 would most probably replace the oldest F-16's if taken, so concluding ..

-PAF does not have to replace 300 aircrafts, it has to replace 11 squadrons and squadron strength can vary -- while out of these 11 squadrons, PAF has a set solution for 6 of them in the JF-17's

-Under ideal conditions, PAF only has to worry about replacing 3-5 squadrons

-The options that can fulfill this are many and will become more clear as we approach 2020 (most likely J-10 B/C, SU35 or J-11 series if it can become available for purchase)

-By 2020, we can easily have an airforce that is predominantly a 4th generation airforce

-With the upgrades of JFT coming up, and the number of weapons & options available,, JFT will surely be a force to be reckoned with

- If PAF wants to go for more falcons as its more cost effective, (the cost for infrastructure, training expenses etc. can be cut )it should opt to induct advanced weapons like the Aim-9X to make the falcon fleet alot more potent then it already is..

-If everything goes as planned, the disparity between the prowess of IAF and PAF will be the lowest since the 1990's ...

 

[araz]

AoA

I would like to see PAF having

5 F-16 Sqns
3 Su-35 Sqns if available otherwise J-16
8 JF-17 Sqns
3 JH-7B Sqns

Regards

I would like Pakistan to have
2000 squadrons of battle stars.
300 squadrons each of F22 and F35.
Su 35. F15 . Stealth version. F18, EFT,J11Z,J10X etc
And then we buy all the F16s as EDAs coming from EU and USAF. Buy the boneyard in. Arizona wheee all the planes are stored and refurbish all of them. That way we will have enough for the defence of our country. BUT WAIT. WHY ARE THESE PEOPLE TAKING AWAY MY COUNTRY. OH I BORROWED MONEY FROM THE LOAN SHARKS AND I DONT HAVE A COUNTRY ANYMORE. BUT I DO HAVE A STRONG AIR FORCE. LETS LIVE IN THE BATTLE STAR AND CONQUER MARS AND BUILD COLONIES AND FROM THERE WE WILL SIT AND DIRECT OUR DOO DOO TOWARDS INDIA AND THE US AND THE EU AND AND AND AND.
A

 

[silent hawk]

I would like Pakistan to have
2000 squadrons of battle stars.
300 squadrons each of F22 and F35.
Su 35. F15 . Stealth version. F18, EFT,J11Z,J10X etc
And then we buy all the F16s as EDAs coming from EU and USAF. Buy the boneyard in. Arizona wheee all the planes are stored and refurbish all of them. That way we will have enough for the defence of our country. BUT WAIT. WHY ARE THESE PEOPLE TAKING AWAY MY COUNTRY. OH I BORROWED MONEY FROM THE LOAN SHARKS AND I DONT HAVE A COUNTRY ANYMORE. BUT I DO HAVE A STRONG AIR FORCE. LETS LIVE IN THE BATTLE STAR AND CONQUER MARS AND BUILD COLONIES AND FROM THERE WE WILL SIT AND DIRECT OUR DOO DOO TOWARDS INDIA AND THE US AND THE EU AND AND AND AND.
A

AoA

Was not expecting this from a think tank.

Regards

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Right now, Pakistan has around 18 squadrons which field combat aircrafts including the F-7P/PG's, JFT's, F-16's & Mirage III/V Roses ...
Out of these 18 squadrons ... 5 are F-7 P/PG squadrons (3 PG squadrons & 2P squadrons), 6 squadrons of Mirage III/V Roses (Bandits,Haiders,Tail choppers,Cobras, Tigers, War Hawks, Eagles, Ghazis,Talons, zarrars & night srike Eagles)
The rest are JFT squadrons (Minhas, Black spiders & panthers) and F-16 squadrons (falcons, griffins, arrows,sherdils)

So let's get this out of the way ... Pakistan doesn't have to replace "300 aircrafts" -- it has to replace '11 squadrons '
A squadron strength may deviate from 16-20 .. with that in mind, if we look as to how many squadrons JFT block I has formed ... that would be 3 on a squadron strength of 16-17 (depending on how much JFT's we have in CCS)
Going by todays numbers of 150 on order = We have the replacement of 6 squadrons in the bag ... which squadrons are replaced ... well most likely the F-7P's will be first ... and going by how much PAF is interested in anti-ship weapons and stand-off A2G weapons ... JFT can also replace the Mirage squadrons ...
So, now we only have to worry about replacing 5 squadrons ... the current strength of the F-16's is 76 and it forms 4 squadrons of PAF, if we were to go by the initial target of 110 aircrafts .. we can form two more squadrons of F-16's.
That leaves us with 3 squadrons to worry about ... with the EEZ and CPEC, most likely a heavy multirole fighter, now it could be the SU-35 or a even a deal with both the Russians and Chinese to provide some "solution", or we could go for J-10C and if the financial crunch continues, induct more JFT block III ...

The J-31 would most probably replace the oldest F-16's if taken, so concluding ..

-PAF does not have to replace 300 aircrafts, it has to replace 11 squadrons and squadron strength can vary -- while out of these 11 squadrons, PAF has a set solution for 6 of them in the JF-17's

-Under ideal conditions, PAF only has to worry about replacing 3-5 squadrons

-The options that can fulfill this are many and will become more clear as we approach 2020 (most likely J-10 B/C, SU35 or J-11 series if it can become available for purchase)

-By 2020, we can easily have an airforce that is predominantly a 4th generation airforce

-With the upgrades of JFT coming up, and the number of weapons & options available,, JFT will surely be a force to be reckoned with

- If PAF wants to go for more falcons as its more cost effective, (the cost for infrastructure, training expenses etc. can be cut )it should opt to induct advanced weapons like the Aim-9X to make the falcon fleet alot more potent then it already is..

-If everything goes as planned, the disparity between the prowess of IAF and PAF will be the lowest since the 1990's ...

so that mean we gonna just reduce the Numbers of planes per squad that way we doesn't have to replace there 300 jets..

by the time we gonna add JFT into the squads our most of mirages would be retire we most probably gonna reach 150 JFT 4 5 years from now keeping in mind about Block III

half of our F-16 also have just 10-15 years we have to think for the replacement of those to

AoA

Was not expecting this from a think tank.

Regards

he's just being Sarcastic

 

[araz]

AoA

Was not expecting this from a think tank.

Regards

Iam really sorry but I get so frustrated at times reading those wish lists which for a country like Pakistan in its current state are not only unrealistic and unachievable but totally irrelevant.
Look at things my way. We have a perrenial shortage of electricity and water which is crippling our economy. On the flipside we have floods now every year for the last 3yrs causing loss in billions. And yet we dont have money to build the damned dams which will if not prevent the situation at least alleviate the problem and generate the electricity. Also just building one dam will allow you to dredge Tarbela and Mangla and improve their working lives by another 30 yrs. This to me is of far more importance than all the acquisitions by our armed forces bar Navy as their platforms take a decade to materialise and get personnel trained on
Coming to the issue of PAF
J10. PAF has evaluated the J10 repeatedly and by some accounts requested changes in design with institution of DSI and some other changes. The engine problem remains a big hurdle. There has recently been 1 or possibly 2 crashes and PAF personnel reported problems with J10 engines. Secondly to make it into PAF it has to compete with F16s which by any stretch of imagination offer you more and although risk prone are established in PAF. Any war in our theatre will be short and therefre sanctions with enough numbers can be borne with some difficulties. There maybe other aspects which might deter the US from sanctioning us now.
TWIN ENGINES:
There is no denying the need for 2-3 squadrons of heavies for maritime surveillance and air superiority roles. The US and EU platforms are all above 120million a pop and therefore out of reckoning. The spectre of sanctions has not yet settled enough fo4 PAF to drown its precious reso7rces into a sanctionable resource. The SU35 is a gem of a plane but the fickleness of Russian relations with Pakistan leaves us in doubt about this. The Chinese Jseries is a possibility keeping multiple factors in mind but will not happen without Russian approval.
The 5th generation fighter: The J31 is the only viable option at the moment as all other assets are in design phase and wont be ready till 2030. BUT CATIC is looking for a partner to sink money into the project and PAF wants to avoid taking that risk and wants to negotiate when they have a mature product. Now whether this happens or not and whether something else materialises in the mdan time is something that cannot be said. So PAFs decision to procure heavies not only depends on funding but also on the availability of a suitable 5th generation pla5form. If we are looking at J31 being ready by 2023 then with more new and old F16s we can bid3 our time JFT might have completed its cycle of production and PAF will have a trained resource to divert t9wards this project. If the project is delayed beyond 2025-27 then there maybe merit in buying twins either from China or Russia and bolster defences with that. The recent acquisition of F16s if true may point to that. However the situation is pretty fluid and needs to be watched closely. This is my personal assessment and can be argued against if you so desire. However lists by themselves to me are a waste of time and effort. Hope this explains my position.
Regards
A

 

[abdulbarijan]

so that mean we gonna just reduce the Numbers of planes per squad that way we doesn't have to replace there 300 jets..

by the time we gonna add JFT into the squads our most of mirages would be retire we most probably gonna reach 150 JFT 4 5 years from now keeping in mind about Block III

half of our F-16 also have just 10-15 years we have to think for the replacement of those to



he's just being Sarcastic

The number is not 300 to begin with ... the PAF has been replacing F-7P's with PG's, if im not incorrect a squadron even had Mirages replace the F-7P's -- then the squadron 'falcon' previously operated F-7P's, now operates blk-52's ... then obviously the recent addition of JFT to replace another squadron of F-7P's ... so yeah .. the numbers are alot less, and I don't see replacing a squadron of 20-22 or plus F-7P's with 16-17 JFT's .. as that big of an issue ... because a squadron of JFT's offers a generation upgrade, while adding multirole capabilities to the squadron ... so loosing a strength of 4-5 per squadron does not bother me atleast, because what we're getting by far outweighs what we're replacing (and that includes numbers) ... but after the order of 150 is complete ... if the PAF feels the need, it could order another batch to beef up the squadron strength ...

Hence we still need to worry MORE about those 3-5 squadrons and find a suitable solution for them ...

 

[Muhammad Omar]

The number is not 300 to begin with ... the PAF has been replacing F-7P's with PG's, if im not incorrect a squadron even had Mirages replace the F-7P's -- then the squadron 'falcon' previously operated F-7P's, now operates blk-52's ... then obviously the recent addition of JFT to replace another squadron of F-7P's ... so yeah .. the numbers are alot less, and I don't see replacing a squadron of 20-22 or plus F-7P's with 16-17 JFT's .. as that big of an issue ... because a squadron of JFT's offers a generation upgrade, while adding multirole capabilities to the squadron ... so loosing a strength of 4-5 per squadron does not bother me atleast, because what we're getting by far outweighs what we're replacing (and that includes numbers) ... but after the order of 150 is complete ... if the PAF feels the need, it could order another batch to beef up the squadron strength ...

Hence we still need to worry MORE about those 3-5 squadrons and find a suitable solution for them ...

M nor saying that we need to Replace these 300 jets right now but till next 10-15 years JFT is still gonna keep on adding taking places of old ones but still we will need 3rd platform in PAF sooner or later