Killing India’s hidden ‘Cold Start’ strategy

[Xeric]

Same applies on you, no????


Better you discuss on the topic or let me know and we can stop the exchange of opinion, no??? No need to read things out of context just to pamper your false ego. The message is clear - which is if we go by history then Indian have been able to execute their plans much better then pakistani counterparts however that do not guarantee this will be repeated again. Now i would appreciate if Mr, think tank can point out the flaw in my assertion....


Liberate is a wrong word here. pakistan attacked Kashmir in 47 and yes Indian forces did move in and halted their move. This is nothing but fact no matter whatever you want to name it....And no i do not enjoy in taking pleasures from Past becase they are past. What i am interested is in present and future...Better you also start looking at it...


I never said that we brought Pak to its knees, though Musharraf did said that Pakistani soil will not be allowed to be used by terrorist against India. Anyways our i don't see any indian said that stand off was a success for India. It is our failure to mobilize quickly that gave birth to Cold Start. See we are not sensitive to our mistakes. We acknowledge them and improve upon them....



Not sure then why pak attacked her own land(as Kashmir is claimed by them). B/W we never occupied Siachen and yes it was always ours. All we did was to ensure enemy gets a bloody nose if it tries to take our territory and as far as i know we were succesful, no???



It will take some time for Pakistani's to understand that war's are fought on diplomatic front first before going to actual war field. You just don't do a kargil and then go for diplomacy to cover the sins...



Not sure what you wanted to convey but one thing is for sure that people here do consider nukes as "ladoos"...B/W official stand is clear there is no CSD. You want to believe the official version then awesome...



I don't think i enjoyed the off-topic discussion, so next time if you can don't post things out of context...

i was expecting a better reply, majja nahi aya


P.S. It is easy to term others posts as off topic but bring 71 and Kashmir into CS thread is quite on-topic, right?

 

[deckingraj]

i was expecting a better reply, majja nahi aya


P.S. It is easy to term others posts as off topic but bring 71 and Kashmir into CS thread is quite on-topic, right?

The kind of replies you are getting into i am sorry to say it do not suit your title. Read my post again, first understand what i was talking about, what was the context before saying that i was going off topic....I am not sure why are you behaving naive here????

 

[notorious_eagle]

See the problem is that national jingoism always take the better of poster. Mind it i am not accusing you but only saying that irrespective of nationality lets discuss with logic....with that said let me reply to your post....

Indeed lets talk with logic because so far all i have seen is delusional Indian fanboys who are brainwashed to the max after watching too many Bollywood movies.

If that is the case then it is great. But I would request you to think a little more on it. Soviet/North Koreans are not fools so let's not be-little them. They did not armed themselves to core just because the love arms. Ground situation demanded that because there adversary is economically strong and they could not have let the balance tilt towards the enemy and ultimately end up in a catch-22....Dictatorships do not enjoy the same checks and balances as democracy...Yes democratic set-up is slow but then provide you some additional checks before you commit grave mistakes...This is what did the soviets...

I have thought more about this topic and i suggest you do the same. I am not belittling anyone, i am just stating the facts here. The reason why the Soviets eventually failed against the Americans is because they wanted a military machine that would out match the Americans, and indeed by the 80's their military had reached a point where it was superior to that of NATO. But all that military might came at the expense of its economy, they were spending 25% of their GDP on their military. If your adversary is superior to you in terms of resources, you don't have to match a bullet for a bullet. You need to maintain a credible deterrence or make the cost of the victory so high that the enemy does not ever dare attack you. This is exactly the policy Pakistan is following and i fully support it 100%. We will not match India a bullet for a bullet, but we will ensure that we maintain a credible deterrence.

I am not sure if it 4% of GDP or not. You would know better than me, however around $8 billion dollar for an economy like Pak is a little too big amount. Now read my post again where i shared some big ticket items that new delhi has already planned. Don't you think this will put a huge burden on your already fragile economy???

An economy thats worth almost $178 billion can afford to spend $8 billion on defence considering what our security situation is. We know exactly what big ticket items Indians are buying, we don't have to match them in numbers but we have our acquisition plans in the process too. Although the big ticket items you are talking about, i don't see any of them being big enough to turn the tide in India's favour. The PESA radar was definitely a scare back in early 2000's, it literally shook our high command but immediately it was countered up with 3D Radars that were purchased on emergency basis from China and than eventually the US. These big ticket items you are talking about, from what i know haven't shaken up GHQ.

Anyhow it's your country and you have to decide what is best for you...My point being cold-start is pushing you big time and is denting your economy....

No offence but you are quite delusional my friend, Cold Start instead has back fired on you guys and has brought us even closer. After Kargil, PA and PAF were never on the best of terms and their was a huge gap in terms of trust. Due to Cold Start and WOT, all three arms of our Armed Forces have reached a new height of synergy. Saftron Bandit, Azm e Nau and action in FATA proves that PA and PAF are working hand in hand. Thus, i would say thank you because this Cold Start Doctrine has improved working relationship between PA, PAF and PN. And as far as the economy is concerned, i honestly dont know how did you reach the conclusion that Cold Start is denting our economy

See i don't want to get into dynamics of NATO power and how battle hardened PA is..However thisking IA is run by fools might also not be right....We may lack the capabilities as of now but we are working on it.....As said before the acquisitions we had in last 5-7 years and what we are planning for next decade definitely shows we are improving our capabilities as we speak....

What you have planned for Cold Start is ambitious, actually very ambitious for the likes of Indian Army. Indeed India is improving its capabilities but do you think Pakistan is sitting static in terms of her capabilities .

See this is where i hate to indulge in discussions, because this is mere chest thumping. It is foolish to get into war when you can get the job done otherwise...Military action is and should always be the last option...Lack of military action no way means that will or capability is not there....Do i need to remind you the diplomatic offensive against Pak and how succesful it has been??? Please suggest me a good reason for India to attack Pak???? Don't you think it would have hurt our economy big time??? As said Cold start was derived out of 2003 show down. Now our Army has given another option to civil class. It has its pros and cons and it is upto the political class to use it or not depending upon the circumstances.

And your accusing me of chest thumping, i am not the one whose delusional about his countries power in the international stage. So please remind me what good did the huge diplomatic offensive against Pakistan achieved for India, was even one of India's demand met? In my opinion it just made India look impotent because it simply could not get what it wanted from Pakistan. Honestly, Indians need to end it with their delusional thinking. If your country had overwhelming conventional superiority against Pakistan, instead of following the diplomatic path they would have crushed Pakistan militarily after Mumbai similar to what Russia did to Georgia.

This is not correct. IA will not do anything unless and until civil class tell them to. This is a stark difference between us. So once you(read politicians) give an order of attack there is no point of having cold-feet and calling them back. The strategy is to go for offense after our politicians gives a go and be punitive before international pressure brings the conflict to a halt. Probably you are confused between International Pressure and Cold-Feet of our Politicians....

Indeed the politicians would give the go ahead for the attack, but just think for a second. If God forbid an attack like Mumbai happens again, initially their is going to be anger and the entire country would want blood. If the IA can mobilize much faster before your policy makers can think rationally and get cold feet, you have a war on your hands.

Similar notions are about IA as well. Though operations like Kargil gives an inclination that communication is not as good as projected, however thinking that enemy is not worth his salt is like living in fools paradise, so i have no objection to your statement. Anyways as said above a plan is as good as executed...

Judging from the views of our Indian friends over here at this forum and Indian Service Men, i think we all know who is under estimating whom . Making statements such as "we have earmarked 5000 targets" or "PAF fears us" does not really do justice to your country's service men.

What??? Our media is always looking out for such news. Don't remember any such thing. Would appreciate if you can share something...

Ahh man thats too much effort , go a bit back and i am sure you will find the article or hopefully someone can post that article over here. There were some quite hot debates on that forum post the Mumbai attacks.

I am not sure who told you that victory over Pakistan is an easy task...In fact no war is easy, only fools can think otherwise...

Start reading the comments of your fellow members here .

You can't be more wrong...It is not always brawn, countries have to use brain as well otherwise operations like kargil can do lot damage(economic, strategic, geo-political and loss of lives)....As said lack of military action no way tell that will or capability is not there...Regarding the parity between our Armed forces then i don't want to indulge in d!ck measuring competition. If you think you can defend yourself then great. In a war one side loose other wins. All depends upon how effectively plans are implemented and what fire power you possess. I wish that time never come. Though i must say looking at the money GOI is pouring to modernize our forces Pak has lot of work to do....

Pakistan's Armed Forces are doing exactly what was needed to be done to modernize its forces, though we do have a lot of gaps to fill but most of the important gaps(BVR, AWACS, Missiles, Electronic Warfare) have or are being filled right now. But i am certainly flattered on how much you care about us

Why you even care what Indian member's are thinking...As far as i know neither i take PA as bunch of push overs nor our Armed forces. In fact if you see many from Pakistan dis-regard what our Army top-brass has said about two-front wars, limited war as mere chest thunping and wet dreams. They don't take them seriously which is a grave mistake. As an adversary i would love to have a complacent enemy then cautious but one much realize that today's india has realized her might and we are very confident lot. Our PM has clearly said the zone of our influence and we are working day and night to ensure that happens....

Well i can assure you Pakistan's Army does not act with complacency; but honestly, think rationally. Fighting a two front war against Pakistan and a Giant like China, i mean it does not take a genius to know what the results would be. Indian Army to this day does not possess the capability to overwhelm Pakistan, but if you add China to the equation that how do you expect India to stand a chance.

As said if you think that scales are very much even then good for you. From what i am looking we do need a reality check. Things are changing at a very fast rate. Don't get our slow red-tape beaurocratic babudam delusion you about the pace with which we are improving. Anyhow there is no point in empty chest thumping...Also one small thing - We are fine with the status quo. Siachen and heights are under our control, so is the lifeline of Pak(read water). We have no zest for the other half of Kashmir and that is why you see almost every Indian fine with converting LOC to border. Our job is to find out a way to punish Pak militarily if our civilian govt want's to try that option. We will succeed or not only time will tell but one thing is for sure we are going to put lot of pressure on your budget....

You have been trying to do that for a long time, how exactly were the results

 

[deckingraj]

You exactly know what i am up to, so let's cut the chase.

Exactly cut the stupid exaggerations and talk on topic. will do world of good to both of us...

No you are not clear.

Fine let c how you are going to correct me....

Man i never knew india, the mighty india, the having-superiority-in-every-field-of-defence-india can hold us from our balls and can make us do whatever it wants whenever it wants. Man, india can crush us with its air superiority, with its superior strategies and shinier weaponry darn they can do it with 9%-growing-every-year economy. Alas, they are just waiting for the ABM, and then they are all done, right?

Is this how you correct someone by saying you are not clear. Xeric make up your mind. Either correct me or cut the crap...

Is that what you wanted to say, because that's the only thing i can make out of your above quoted post.

No this is not what i want to say. If you are not clear then why don't you ask??? Why all that BS above??? As said i am just proving my point how our cold start will put lot of strain on your coffers. What i am trying to say is that offensive doctornies like Cold Start forces you to match your adversary all the time. My example was that there was time when IAF had decisive edge over their PAF counterparts in BVR department. This was one thing that really bited Pak during Kargil and we all know about it...With doctorines like CSD one cannot relax and think "well there cannot be full-fledge war" so lets modernize in contrast with economy.

i wonder if india is indeed so strong and hefty in all spheres, what's stopping you from getting Kashmir back, stopping 'terrorists' from crossing over and taking over remainder of Siachen. i dont understand though, why would india need Obama's mouth to say Pakistan 'needs to control it's terrorist heavens'?

Let's get something very clear...and i will not repeat it again(since have done many times)...All i am talking about is how CSD will put a big hole in your economy. Don't make my post a d!ck measuring competiton.

Regarding all the rant above then being a think tank you should have known that India is happy with status quo because it favors us. We control the heights and your lifeline(water). That is why you will find even an average Indian ready to convert LOC into borders. B/w since you are not able to take rest of the kashmir from us can i infer that Pak is nothing against India??? What kind of stupid argument is that???

Also i dont know if MKIs and BVRs would solve the dud grenade problem of yours or if it would help decrease the night blindness of your Army.

Now you are behaving really naive. If you believe all that then i cannot help. In fact being an adversary i will love you to belive it....

And who are you trying to fool, boy?

You might not know but "boy" is racist remark. Anyways i don't want to indulge in all this nonsense. I am not trying to fool anyone. All i am saying is that you had to increase 25-30% of your defence budget and this increase in unprecedented especially when economy is down the drain...This by no mean is gradual increase the way you are trying to portray it......

What exactly did we buy from the 25-30% hike in the budget? Even if we bought something what bearing exactly does that equipment have on your CSD? Who the fcuk are you trying to fool, while we fight a full fledged war in our West and increased more defence budget?!

You are telling me that you have increased your defence budget by 30% to fight with TTP???? OK i believe you..lets cut the crap now....

^^ There's a fcuk lotta difference between 'thinking' 50 years ahead and taking steps that would give realization to your 50-years-ahead thinking.

Are you fine??? I am talking about the next 5 - 10(hyphen means "to" i.e 5 to 10 years). Not sure why you are harping on 50 years again and again. And this is just an example to tell you how cold start is going to be a headache... All the big tickets items i have talked about are not wet dreams.... All of them are reality...work is in progress... This is how defense mechanism work for every country. You consider the current threats and possible future threats. Not sure what is putting you off....

india is making 155 its standard calibre, india is going100% mechanized soon, india is going to the biggest plane buyer in the world, man you would be welcome to BS me when india would actually do something to this effect and i have told this thing a 100 times to you guys. If that be the case then on the revelation of every modernization plan that country had nothing else to do other then sitting around watching the enemy die its own death! But then there's something know as being realistic and considering things that are tangible!

OK man so we are not modernizing at all...If you cannot see any tangible acquisations and the planned one's then i cannot help.

May be Op Prakaram and 2009 wanabe stand of was just a love bite.

Oh man th eproblem is you in your self-righteous attitude don't want to listen to anything....Op Parakaram exposed our slow mobilzation and that is what gave birth to CSD....Unlike Pak our establishment understands that knee jerk reactions are not work of mature countries..... War in whatever form should only be the last option.....We have given diplomacy a chance this time and may be in your false ego you are not able to see the damage that we have done to you but fact will not change...Also we have made it ample clear that any more such attack will mean war...now what part is not clear to you???

i have already told the ways and means that you people would use to present yourselves as an angle.

no comments..Keep living with your illusions...

Oh shyt, now it seems i am talking to some kid off the block.

Trust me the way you are responding it looks like the other way....

i was referring to the sanctions post the A bomb explosions.

What the heck you mean by that the sanctions did not impact us? It did hurt us, we did suffer and we had problems, but that's not the issue. The issue is that we are still standing. Our F-16 still flew when the sanctions were imposed on spares and we still pull up Kargil.

We are having a bad time, BTW when was the last time we had a guud time?

When 2005 earthquake struck people said we'll just collapse. We halted the new GHQ construction, isnt it still underway now?

We faced dire power shortage, we have poor economy but arent we still committed on the Western border? Had things been so bad we must have packed our bags and came back to the barracks.

The war in the West, the CSD on the East and then the floods in the middle...mercy God mercy..!! But see, we still give you nightmares as evident from your leaders behavior during Obama's visit.


In short what i meant to say was that we survived and we still are surviving. We have seen the worst!

Oh my god....do you even read what i am saying??? All i am saying is that sanctions/arms race or whatever is going to impact you. We being a bigger economy can afford it. A negative impact on an economy slows down your momentum and will not allow you to be an independent nation.....I not even once said that Pakistan will fall like peck of cards. Anyways you will not understand or may be you don't want to....

We'll see to that.

Like i said first you have to fulfill the two requirements that i wrote before another terrorist dares to attack india

Again ignoring meaningless comments...

It did hurt us, whois denying that. But as you probably are trying to portray that a hike in defence budget would (allegedly in response to CSD) would shatter Pakistan. No Sire, we would eat grass and still fund the military. Dont believe in what our uber-elites have to say on some blogs. We are sacrificing guud living standards since our inception and we still dont mind carry on like that. If you think otherwise you are quite mistaken.

Finally something to agree upon. Yes this is what i have been trying to portray. This is what is called pakistan being shattered. When you expect your netizens to eat grass but fund the military you are putting yourself in a conflict which is not sustainable....Things are changing. India is not a nation of License Raj of 90's anymore. 9% growth soon going to be double digit is no joke....B/W Please learn your own history....Pakistan was churning out better GDP growth than India in early years of her independence....It is sanctions and your love for Jihaad that did you...anyhow i am not trying to belittle pakistan here however this is one conflict that you cannot win, period. If last 63 years of struggle and yet no success cannot wake you then what can i do.....

Duh..??What's the point exactly?

Point is that our nuclear explosion was not against Pakistan....It was against China...It it was to bully Pakistan then we had our first explosion way back in 74.

If nuisances would commit majority of the armed forces both during peace and war (as it had and would in future), we would love to keep that status BTW, that was such a U turn, sir.

Xeric, as said we are fine with Status quo. Just look at our history and tell me any incident when we tried to change the status quo. And no you don'w want to keep the same status, you want to change the status. As said before we can afford it, so yes Pakistan is nothing but a nuisance for us. Also i would appreciate if you can suggest how exactly what was a U turn...

Like i always say, CSD has is spread over us like a cancer, and we wont survive it the next instance. Happy?

No, i never said that...Connect with my earlier comment on Paper Plan vs its execution. 65, kargil all were very good plan's on paper, however there execution did not go well.....CSD will succeed or not only time will tell, however it is definitely causing lot of discomfort across the border...

Please make up you mind first. What's exactly your stance:

1-There's no CSD, it never existed.

or

2-CSD would be Pakistan's end if another attack happens.

or

3-CSD is a 'brilliant' psyops shyt against Pakistan.

or
4-Or you are just another confused soul mixing it up all over and shifting the poles as it suits the discussion?

Hello...start reading the post before making these imaginary accusations...How many times i have to say that official version is we deny CSD but all the recent acquisitions and planned one's suggests that it is very much a doctorine. As far as my personal stand i have clearly said that official denial was only diplomacy...It is very much there and work is going on...

Man, i are you nuts or what?

Keep harping such things...This just shows the maturity of a think tank...

Since when Pakistan had anything more than india?

Show me where did i claim that??? Any comprehensive problems??? What i am saying is that we always had a numerical superiority over you and now quanlitative edge is also coming into play...Quantity and Quality is going to be a big headache especially with WOT and economy in bad shape...CSD pressure also going to make matter's worse...Now will Pak be able to cope with it, only time will tell...My point for the 100th time, CSD will put lot of strain on your budget...

Nor do i remember Pakistan spending a lower share of GDP over defence, so then what's fuss about? We as a Nation are burdened by the defence expenditures, but that's not our worry; the question is, is the Nation willing to allow more expenditure on defence even at crucial times? If yes, then you people are screwed!

Please explain how are we screwed??? The problem is you don't want to say the obvious...And no with so much dependency on WB you cannot increase defence budget.....You will end up defaulting if they pull out...

Lolz...india has been leaning towards this status since the day i learned to read, and you have portrayed as if its something new out of the box. Listen Mr, till the time we are holding the US from its balls, you aint getting a tosh. think mr not-a-think-tank!

That is the problem...you guys are convinced that you are holding US from balls whereas there are bomb explosion everywhere in pak...anyhow we have nothing to do with it...this is someting between Pak and US.... If you still have not realized the long term strategic relations between India and US then you better should stop calling yourself think tank...

The US is up for pleasing you but it wont do take a such that would cause sudden and dire imbalance in the region. Making a step child out of three nuclear powers in the region is as stupid as it can get.

What imbalance??? Are you assuming here??? Where was this imbalance worries when you were under sanctions??? They did it after 65 when we were getting armed by Russia and they did not bother. They did the same in 90's and PAF lost almost a decade. Where was the thought of imbalance when they signed nuclear deal with us and ignore repeated request by Pak??? where was this thought of imbalance when Obama openly endorsed our long term quest for UN permanent member??? Are all this figment of my imagination or you are deliberately ignoring them??? Look we have hard core cash. Both India and US are moving towards long term strategic relations..The conditions are very much there and things are moving at a rapid pace...If one chose to ignore writing on the wall then i am sorry, cannot help.....Please don't put too much hope on this impabalance thingi....You have paid in the past and there is high probablity you will end up paying even more dearly....

i wish i see some action against you people before i shed away the khaki! It's been quite a while since i moved back from the LoC.

Sorry i will always pray that time don't come...However you can always join the jihadi pigs and try your hands....

No doubts that you have displayed more restraint then Pakistan in dealing with the yanks, but then they know who to keep you tied up.

And what exactly is that??? You very well know that we never had great relations with Yanks. Today we have good realtions with them but in no way we are dependent on them. So yes you do budge against pressure from super-Power but to an extent....Think about it- lets say India do a pre-emptive strike on Pakistan. Do you think Pakistan will budge against US pressure and will not retaliate??? Now if you with so much dependency on them will not stop then what made you think India will??? And it is you who is saying that we handle them well as compared with Pak, right???

We'll see if you people can do a single thing other than fiery speeches, absurd and aggressive statements and virtual threats till the time the US is stuck in Afg and i;ll again say, it doesnt require a brain to figure this out.

Actually it do...Point is are you willing to apply it??? In democracies there are limits to which you can do certain things. The way Pakistan blocked NATO supplies when 3 of your army personnels got killed the same way another mumbai and New Delhi will be compelled to react...Have no confusion about it...

Imagine, you people fingering us one more time and we moving our entire forces towards East and the WoT goes for a six. How not so charming. i am sure those high ups of yours sure have a brain to make use of.

Already explained...Onus is on you not to let that happen....

Like i said, there aint happening a 'terrorist' attack in india till the time the US is dependent upon our support.

This is how you think and i have no problems. I know this that another terror attack on India and your desire to meet us before you shed away Khakhi will come true...

 

[wali87]

one nuke on India and 50 back on Pakistan.

See , anyone can be a warmonger.

One nuke? and then rest are just for show right? lol
I feel scared even speaking about it.. but if such a scenario does arise, then brother its not gonna be 'one single' nuke..

 

[Beacon]

One nuke? and then rest are just for show right? lol
I feel scared even speaking about it.. but if such a scenario does arise, then brother its not gonna be 'one single' nuke..

may be he is referring to a ratio of 1:50...

i dont think that is the situation based on facts...probably 1:1

 

[wali87]

with whom India signed no first use treaty ? with Pakistan or with china ?

these are self proclaimed policy's made by India & india can change then on its own conditions.

Obviously a country doesn't sign the first use treaty with another country, its signed with an international BODY.

But your post proves one thing for sure, India DEFINATELY goes back on its words whenever it feels like... Its just about the psycee

Just how India is a self proclaimed superpower in true essence.. your oown scientist are saying that the Indian nukes are Duds.

 

[GodlessBastard]

But your post proves one thing for sure, India DEFINATELY goes back on its words whenever it feels like... Its just about the psycee

What the hell is a "psycee"?

 

[wali87]

What the hell is a "psycee"?

I mean its just how the indian establishment is. Thats how they think..

 

[deckingraj]

Indeed lets talk with logic because so far all i have seen is delusional Indian fanboys who are brainwashed to the max after watching too many Bollywood movies.

Kewl thnxs...

I have thought more about this topic and i suggest you do the same. I am not belittling anyone, i am just stating the facts here. The reason why the Soviets eventually failed against the Americans is because they wanted a military machine that would out match the Americans, and indeed by the 80's their military had reached a point where it was superior to that of NATO. But all that military might came at the expense of its economy, they were spending 25% of their GDP on their military. If your adversary is superior to you in terms of resources, you don't have to match a bullet for a bullet. You need to maintain a credible deterrence or make the cost of the victory so high that the enemy does not ever dare attack you. This is exactly the policy Pakistan is following and i fully support it 100%. We will not match India a bullet for a bullet, but we will ensure that we maintain a credible deterrence.

Then i would request you to think again....Here we are talking about super-powers. If you want to be a super-power(the way USSR was) you cannot say we are defensive force. Also are you ignoring the resources of Russia??? They never bothered to set-up industry other than defense and when Reagan forced Saudi Arab to reduce prices of Oil that prooved to be a final nail for Soviet...Anyhow i think i am done with this particular topic.. lets talk about the issue in hand....

An economy thats worth almost $178 billion can afford to spend $8 billion on defence considering what our security situation is.

Thanks for saying this...Now do you see CSD to have any role in this increase or you think it is all because of TTP???

We know exactly what big ticket items Indians are buying, we don't have to match them in numbers but we have our acquisition plans in the process too. Although the big ticket items you are talking about, i don't see any of them being big enough to turn the tide in India's favour. The PESA radar was definitely a scare back in early 2000's, it literally shook our high command but immediately it was countered up with 3D Radars that were purchased on emergency basis from China and than eventually the US. These big ticket items you are talking about, from what i know haven't shaken up GHQ.

Thanks once again...I never said you have to match us Bullet by Bullet. But you need to keep on modenizing...

No offence but you are quite delusional my friend,

No not at all...I am not a fanboy and eager to learn...What other reason to be on Pakistani forum??? Please help me here...

Cold Start instead has back fired on you guys and has brought us even closer. After Kargil, PA and PAF were never on the best of terms and their was a huge gap in terms of trust. Due to Cold Start and WOT, all three arms of our Armed Forces have reached a new height of synergy. Saftron Bandit, Azm e Nau and action in FATA proves that PA and PAF are working hand in hand. Thus, i would say thank you because this Cold Start Doctrine has improved working relationship between PA, PAF and PN. And as far as the economy is concerned, i honestly dont know how did you reach the conclusion that Cold Start is denting our economy

Please. Are you saying that before cold-start your Air-Force and Army would have fought different war's, had there been any hostality??? Today in a net-centric war all three forces have to fight in tandem. B/W learning is a constant process...I will not say thanks for the Kargil or else we still would have lived on stupid thinking that nukes will keep the enemy at bay...

What you have planned for Cold Start is ambitious, actually very ambitious for the likes of Indian Army. Indeed India is improving its capabilities but do you think Pakistan is sitting static in terms of her capabilities .

But where did i say pak is sitting idle...However in current scenario we have raised the bars...Now Pakistan will have to sweat a lot...Do you agree???

And your accusing me of chest thumping, i am not the one whose delusional about his countries power in the international stage. So please remind me what good did the huge diplomatic offensive against Pakistan achieved for India, was even one of India's demand met?

See when you say india in impotent by not indulging in war then what else you want me to call it other than chest thumping??? May i ask what was your govt. immediate stand on Kasab and other pigs??? Now may i ask what is their stand now??? Do you see some diplomacy working??? As far as i know 6 people have been detained by your govt and a case is going on against them. Now may i ask how many times such things have happened in the past??? Is there any country in the world that is not saying Mumbai Culprits should be brought to Justice by Pak. How many countries were accusing you as safe heavens for terrorist activities before??? I am sorry if you are thinking that diplomatic offensive is like calling the home minister and slapping him in public. Anyhow if you honestly think that diplomacy has not worked against you then to be quite frank i don't know how to make you see the obvious...

In my opinion it just made India look impotent because it simply could not get what it wanted from Pakistan.

Can't help such thoughts...

Honestly, Indians need to end it with their delusional thinking. If your country had overwhelming conventional superiority against Pakistan, instead of following the diplomatic path they would have crushed Pakistan militarily after Mumbai similar to what Russia did to Georgia.

a) I never said India has overwhelming conventional superiority against Pakistan
b) We are happy with status quo so there is no point in attacking Pakistan unless provoked
c) Attacking Pak after mumbai would have been knee-jerk reaction. We have given diplomacy a chance and this seems to be working. However have made ample clear another mumbai and all bets are off
d) Do you believe China have overwhelming conventional superiority against us??? if yes then they also have land dispute with us, why are they not attacking us?? Are they impotent??? I hope you will give me an honest answer...

Indeed the politicians would give the go ahead for the attack, but just think for a second. If God forbid an attack like Mumbai happens again, initially their is going to be anger and the entire country would want blood. If the IA can mobilize much faster before your policy makers can think rationally and get cold feet, you have a war on your hands.

Then you are under-estimating political class. They are not irrational fan-boys...Think about it, do you just say go for a war and then say no war??? No buddy believe me on this one atleast...The only cold-feet is when there is international pressure and you cannot justify your onslaught. The way you have to leave the heights in Kargil. There was no cold-feet because Nawaz Sharif suddenly thought of calling back your army. He had hell lot of pressure from International Community. Pakistan was getting isolated. Your all weather friend also could not support you...

Judging from the views of our Indian friends over here at this forum and Indian Service Men, i think we all know who is under estimating whom . Making statements such as "we have earmarked 5000 targets" or "PAF fears us" does not really do justice to your country's service men.

Reading things out of context won't help. Identifying 5000 targets does not belittle Pakistan in any manner...PAF fear us - I am not sure who said it, so care to elaborate...B/W during war times lot of things are said for morale sake...You should not expect enemy saying openly that adversary can match us and give us a bloody nose...During 71 Niazi was openly bragging that IA can reach Dhaka over his dead body and we all know about the surrender....So in short don't go with public statements....we have fought 4 wars and i am sure both have respect for each other...

Ahh man thats too much effort , go a bit back and i am sure you will find the article or hopefully someone can post that article over here. There were some quite hot debates on that forum post the Mumbai attacks.

Believe me, i have followed mumbai pretty closely. If possible do share the link bcoz my own googling is not giving results...

Start reading the comments of your fellow members here .

Well if i go by comments from across the border then China, Pakistan and BD have already over run India...So my advice please ignore the trolls...

Pakistan's Armed Forces are doing exactly what was needed to be done to modernize its forces, though we do have a lot of gaps to fill but most of the important gaps(BVR, AWACS, Missiles, Electronic Warfare) have or are being filled right now. But i am certainly flattered on how much you care about us

No, i simply don't care about Pakistan...I am just proving my point in the most humble manner. The way things are unfolding Pak has lot of work to do...India has significantly raised the bars...

Well i can assure you Pakistan's Army does not act with complacency; but honestly, think rationally. Fighting a two front war against Pakistan and a Giant like China, i mean it does not take a genius to know what the results would be. Indian Army to this day does not possess the capability to overwhelm Pakistan, but if you add China to the equation that how do you expect India to stand a chance.

Two front war is something that we are grappling with since ages. 71 war was one instance in which we kept reserves just for China. Are you saying that India is not at all prepared for some concept that was out there since 70's??? B/W we are improving further. All Mr Kapoor said was in case we are attacked we are capable to defend ourselves. No we are not talking about taking offensive roles here. We are only talking about defensive role here...

You have been trying to do that for a long time, how exactly were the results

What do you think??? How have been the results so far???

 

[lionheart1]

Islamabad used to support terror outfits as a hedge against India and an unfriendly Afghan regime, so that the two neighbours of Pakistan do not undermine it, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has said.

“They (Pakistan) have in the past hedged against both India and an unfriendly regime in Afghanistan by supporting groups that will be their proxies in trying to prevent either India or an unfriendly Afghan government from undermining their position,” she said.

Ms. Clinton said now things are “changing”, but she cannot confirm whether Pakistan has stopped the use of terror against India and Afghanistan. “That is changing... Now, I cannot sit here and tell you that it has changed, but that is changing,” she told ABC News in an interview, the transcripts of which was released by the State Department.

Ms. Clinton accepted that the U.S. had created certain radical outfits and supported terrorists like Osama bin Laden to fight against the erstwhile Soviet Union, but that backing has boomeranged. “Part of what we are fighting against right now, the United States created. We created the Mujahidin force against the Soviet Union (in Afghanistan). We trained them, we equipped them, we funded them, including somebody named Osama bin Laden. And it didn’t work out so well for us,” she said.

The Secretary of the State also said Pakistan is paying a “big price” for supporting U.S. war against terror groups in their own national interest. “But I think it is important to note that as they have made these adjustments in their own assessment of their national interests, they’re paying a big price for it,” Ms. Clinton said.

“And it’s not an easy calculation for them to make. But we are making progress (in Afghanistan). We have a long way to go and we can’t be impatient...Well, the headlines are bad. We’re going home. We cannot do that,” she said.

Appearing on the same ABC show, Secretary of Defence Robert Gates said Pakistan has withdrawn an equivalent of about six divisions of its army from the Indian border and moved them.

“And they are attacking the Taliban. They’re attacking the Taliban — Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan, and safe havens that are a problem for us,” Mr. Gates said.

“But the other piece of this, we face in both countries what they call a trust deficit, and it is because they believe we have walked away from them in the past at the toughest moments of their history.

“You can’t recreate that (trust) in a heartbeat. You can’t recreate that in a year or two. They both worry that once we solve the problem in Afghanistan, or if we don’t solve it, that either way, we will leave and leave whatever remains in their hands to deal with,” he added.
The Hindu : News / International : Pakistan used terror as a hedge against India: Clinton

every military built up against pakistan , is because of this. when world say's pakistan is a migraine it speaks volume for itself

 

[Pagla Dashu]

And yes.. CSD did help us in international politics..
So yes.. thank you for handing us a thorn to poke the yanks with..
Thank you for being the big wolf for us.. and letting us get away with a lot of things which otherwise would have gotten us into a lot of trouble
THANK YOU INDIA

Bit of a contradiction here.

If CSD is a ‘flat tyre’, like you say it is, it is impossible to believe that US (that’s the country you mean by ‘international politics’, don’t you?) is not aware of it. If you say that the bogey of CSD is still helping you in negotiating with US, it means US is dumb, or they are just letting that perception permeate within Pakistani establishment; meaning US considers Pakistani leadership, that includes military leadership, as dumb. Not a very acceptable proposal, yes?

So, if CSD is working for you in your ‘international politics’, does that mean CSD may have some meat in it forcing your international partners (read US) to empathize with your concern?

Take a pick. You can’t have it both ways.

 

[Pagla Dashu]

Here you people missed a few other pleasures, allow me to help:

It would have really helped us if your tripe was not riddled with logical fallacies, i.e. apart from being a tripe.

- Pakistan failed to liberate Kashmir in '47. See how well we planned a the defence.

You did fail, didn’t you. The portion that you hold currently is the portion you ‘liberated’ before Kashmir became India. After 27 Oct, 1947 you have only lost ground in Kashmir.

It must have bee quite a 'liberation' where the valley, the 'jugular vein' of Pakistan, still remains with India.

- Pakistan was brought on knees in 2001 when it was forced to deploy its entire military along the IB, hell yeah we managed to break Pakistan' back by hurting her economically (though we dont want to tell anyone that the actual aim was to 'punish' Pakistan by declaring war onto it, but then we forgot that Pakistan could move earlier to battle locations )

It was more for domestic consumption that anything. But you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

- We took 'our' land 'back' from Pakistan. We aggressed and occupied Siachen (though i dont know how can one take something 'back' from itself - Siachen was indian territory, right?)

No, we didn’t take our land ‘back’ from Pakistan. We saved our land from falling into the hands of Pakistan. I believe, the nuances don't mean anything to you.

- We made Pakistan shyt bricks by playing a few clips and B-Rolls. Our media (and leaders) didnt an excellent job as it war-mongered while our forces had 'hearty laughs' back at homes (Man, why do india need armed forces if others in india can do the job instead, just wondering?)

This time you are right. We Indians take way too much credit. Pakistanis are so good at shooting themselves in their feet, that we should just sit back and watch the show. And every once in a while float a ‘doctrine’ or two in the air.

- We did some perfect psyops job by leaving a shosha (i hope you understand the word) of CSD. Pakistan is near economical collapse (as it cant make up the defencive imbalance as it lacks the acquisitions), Pakistan is so worried about the CSD that it had already made up plans for countering it (though we the indians still cannot figure out among ourselves whether the CSD actually exists/is workable or not - just see the trend on this thread), Pakistan will not use nukes/would not/cannot/is not able to respond to CS if another terrorists attack take place on indian soil (as if india is our mama's puttar).

This ramble is that a successful psyop seeks to acheive. You keep proving us right.

 

[Pagla Dashu]

Please make up you mind first. What's exactly your stance:

1-There's no CSD, it never existed.

or

2-CSD would be Pakistan's end if another attack happens.

or

3-CSD is a 'brilliant' psyops shyt against Pakistan.

or
4-Or you are just another confused soul mixing it up all over and shifting the poles as it suits the discussion?

Wouldn’t 3 encompass both 1 and 2?

 

[Developereo]

Wouldn’t 3 encompass both 1 and 2?

So who's the smarter one? The guy who is doing the psyops, or the guy who 'plays along' with the psyops to build up his strength?