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Killing India’s hidden ‘Cold Start’ strategy

Hindi: लराई तो होनी नहीं हैं कम से कम हमारे लाइफटाइम मैं , तो खुश रहो
لڑائی تو ہونی نہیں کم سے کم ہمارے لفی تمی میں ، تو خوش رہو : Urdu
 
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Abu are you suggesting that mumbai was a fiasco !!!!!!!

Absolutely, that is right. But there is much more to it than meets the eye.

But those are just my personal views. I have my reasons. You can agree to disagree.


Do you honestly think that when push comes to shove and lets say 200 more indians are killed by a TERROR attack that any state actor involved could with stand the repurcussions.

What repercussions?

And by the way, I do hope there is no such attack anywhere in the world. Such violence never serves a purpose of any kind.

I was the first to condemn the attack and sympathise; at least until india went on her little beliggerant PR/sympathy-garnering/smear campaign (which doesnt seem to have really paid off much anyways)


Remember INDIA has enormous world clout FAR MORE than Pakistan could muster.

If travelling the world for sympathy and phot-ops is clout, then yes you are absolutely correct.

Yes Pakistan did face (diplomatic) pressure, but did manage to hold her ground reasonably well. Aid, military hardwares, state visits et. al went on unabated --despite indian opposition. In fact, no matter how much Indian want to keep the 26/11 alive –seems many are moving on given the impasse. I don’t even hear much about it anymore except of course in Indian media.
shrug_n.gif



I don,t think there will be a another terror attack mumbai style again certainly not involving any state support.

To date, india has failed to find any smoking gun because most likely it doesn’t exist ;)

No more (marathi) dossiers to share? :rofl:


And the reason is because of COLD START threat.

You fail to convince. CSD only increased tensions and preparedness, given the hostile environment. I think High Mark and other excercises showed that there is good synergy and response time amongst the services; possible mistakes would be corrected; and that given whatever resources and means we have – we will use them all and there are many who are ready to die defending every inch of the territory

not trying to chest-thump, but just telling you how it is


Yes i actually believe that India,s rsponse, aggressive tones, threats of surgical strikes will prevent another fool hardy attempt like that.

Yes, keep believing :)

:cheers:
 
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MKIs biggest advantage, along with its long-range radar and "mini-AWACS" data-link capability, is its ability to stay in the air for up to 10 hours at a time and conduct missions up to 8,000 km away. No aircraft that the PAF has comes anywhere near the endurance and long-range capability of the MKI.

We dont need the endurance that the MKI has, sure it would be an excellent upgrade but their are other factors that need to be addressed before. The MKI's endurance comes from its huge size, the huge size increases its RCS thus its a swap between high endurance and huge RCS. Also keep in mind that MKI is a maintenance nightmare, it would take more time for the IAF to service the MKI and shoot them in the air while all the aircrafts in PAF's inventory have excellent serviceability rate allowing us to shoot them in the air faster than the IAF.

Having radars and a few AWACS doesn't make Pakistan invincible.

It does not but having ample warning of an imminent strike gives you the time required to prepare yourself and plan out your course of attack. A defensive side with an extensive radar coverage is at a bigger advantage than an offensive side.

Why don't you look at the numbers possessed by each side and then tell me if they "cancel out".

India already has over 700 T-90s with 1000 more being built by 2020. Plus the 2,000+ T-72s in service are being upgraded extensively; the M2 Ajeya variants are almost as good as the T-90s.

Unless Pakistan is planning on building over 2,000 Al-Khailds your logic makes no sense.

Brilliant, after reading this i take it that your knowledge of military warfare is extremely weak. Having these numbers wont win you the war, the whole notion behind the Cold Start Doctrine is not to utilize the numbers but to utilize speed and using the element of surprise. The time limit for the CSD is less than 96 hours, are you telling me India can mobilize all these assets in time and launch an attack :P, which military manual did you read. There is no evidence that three components of your Armed Forces are talking to each other as all of them want glory, CSD is primarily an Army initiative. The Exercise that was held in 2006 featured 20 000 troops, is the CSD based on 20 000 troops :woot: because if it is than Pakistan has already won the battle.

A defending side does not has to match you with the numbers if India in case launches an attack with its 3 strike corps which is contrary to what the CSD states. What are you going to do when attrition kicks in and Pakistan's light mechanized and infantry starts sniping your armour. Anyways, we are deviating from the topic so i want your opinion on how India would utilize these assets through the CSD.

Don't joke around. I'm not talking about making your own grenades or bullets, even North Korea does that. I'm talking about critical weapon systems like fighters, attack helicopters, warships, mobile SAMs, etc.

Does Pakistan make all those by itself too?

One needs to know their limits, Pakistan does not has infinite resources like US, China, India or Russia. We dont have the resources to produce all these weapons on our own, but if we can procure them and use them in a war than that is all that matters.

PAFs "modernization" programs don't come anywhere near the IAF's rate of modernization.

That shouldn't surprise anybody, considering the disparity in budgets.

Not really, there were certain advantages that IAF enjoyed which have finally been narrowed down by the PAF. From what i can see, PAF's modernization plan is perfect to counter the IAF in a defensive war. Unless the Indians introduce the Raptor in the subcontinent, i don't see the advantage shifting to the IAF.

The exercises demonstrated coordination between the different services and the ability to conduct synchronized mechanized operations, which is obviously the very heart of Cold Start.

The exact operational details of Cold Start and the nature of the IBGs are classified and have not been revealed to the public. That doesn't mean they don't exist. Quite some logic you have.

So please, expand on how the CSD exists and why you think IA can pull it off. I am curious to know because so far i am yet to see providing any logic to back up your loud claims.

What? Is Pakistan the only country that possesses these weapon systems? Do these make Pakistan untouchable by any military power? Or maybe you are trying to revive that age-old logic with a twist: that one Pakistani AWACS is equivalent to ten Indian AWACS :cheesy:

Defensive side that possess AWACS or BVR has a bigger advantage than the offensive side, thats common sense :hitwall:. Instead of posting all this B.S that does not makes any sense, post a detailed plan of how the IA expects to pull off the CSD.
 
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Notorius.

A single twin engined SU30MKI carries 3 x as many BVRs as a standard PAF F16/ THunder over twice the range.

In other words "one su30 mki can handle and engage 2 F16s and stil it will not be outgunned. "

This is why all the worlds top air forces carry heavey twin engined air superiority fighters.

Israel & jAPAN & Saudi F15
iNDIA China Russia Flankers
RAF & Germany Typhoon
France Rafael.

Notorius both the current PAF & NAVY will not be able to win any air war or sea war that is a fact. They are outgunned and out numbered.

In turn this will effect any land operations with India almost certainly having sea and air power advantage.

TO PUT THIS BLUNTLY INDIA HAS GREATER RESOURCES TO FIGHT A WAR LONGER AND WITH MORE WEAPONS.

Ultimately Pakistan will have to force a stalemate or go nuclear. They cannot win a conventional war BUT THE PAKISTANIS can lose one.
 
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Notorius.

A single twin engined SU30MKI carries 3 x as many BVRs as a standard PAF F16/ THunder over twice the range.

In other words "one su30 mki can handle and engage 2 F16s and stil it will not be outgunned. "

Please, this is not 2005 when you could bluff us. We have all seen the Americans evaluate the MKI's in quite depth at Nellis, we all know what the results were. The extra missiles you are talking about, thats the first thing the pilot of MKI will eject to lighten off the load when the pilot realizes that an AMRAAM is homing up his a**.

This is why all the worlds top air forces carry heavey twin engined air superiority fighters.

Israel & jAPAN & Saudi F15
iNDIA China Russia Flankers
RAF & Germany Typhoon
France Rafael.

Is that all these air forces employ? Twin engined aircrafts are excellent for increased endurance but do not make them more lethal, the F16 can easily hold its own against the F15's. The Flankers got their a** handed to them by the F16's during RF, so stop making up B.S

Notorius both the current PAF & NAVY will not be able to win any air war or sea war that is a fact. They are outgunned and out numbered.

How exactly is this a fact? Please be my guest and prove it instead of empty chest thumping. Stop trolling and start proving your points on how PAF and PN will not be able to win the war fighting in a defensive nature, i am not talking about PN engaging the IN in open waters or PAF engaging the IAF in Indian skies. Provide me a detailed analysis, dont troll.

TO PUT THIS BLUNTLY INDIA HAS GREATER RESOURCES TO FIGHT A WAR LONGER AND WITH MORE WEAPONS.

Isn't the whole notion of Cold Start is to fight a small war, you are just contradicting yourself.

Ultimately Pakistan will have to force a stalemate or go nuclear. They cannot win a conventional war BUT THE PAKISTANIS can lose one.

Pakistan thwarts an Indian offensive operation and beats them back to their border, Pakistan has already won the war. Pakistan can win the war in many ways, while the only way India would be the victor if it forces Pakistan to surrender.
 
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Notorius your remark below
Please, this is not 2005 when you could bluff us. We have all seen the Americans evaluate the MKI's in quite depth at Nellis, we all know what the results were. The extra missiles you are talking about, thats the first thing the pilot of MKI will eject to lighten off the load when the pilot realizes that an AMRAAM is homing up his a**.
Dont insult our intelligence

Stop comparing a analysis of the su30 mki in 21st Century battlefield at Redflag with a indo/PAF war theatre equipped with 2nd generation and
3rd generation technology.

Mki went to Redflag with Radar switched off, no awacs, alien culture and air space and held its own.

For your information those same Americans where slaughtered in Gwailor a year earlier by the indian flankers.

Didn,t the American General confirm that SU30MKI was marginally superior to both American F15/F16 legacy fighters. OR DID YOU CONVENIENTLY FORGET THAT BIT...

2ND PART OF YOUR REMARK is childish.

SU30MKI are rumbling annually with Typhoon Rafaels & F16s both in india and in europe. We3 have all seen the footage.

YET YOU CLAIM A fully trained battle hardened mki pilot will ditch his load at the sight of a 25 year old F16 from PAF bwecause he carrys an AMMRAAM./

Notoruius at least be realistic.
 
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Notorius your remark below

Dont insult our intelligence

Stop comparing a analysis of the su30 mki in 21st Century battlefield at Redflag with a indo/PAF war theatre equipped with 2nd generation and
3rd generation technology.

Mki went to Redflag with Radar switched off, no awacs, alien culture and air space and held its own.

For your information those same Americans where slaughtered in Gwailor a year earlier by the indian flankers.

Didn,t the American General confirm that SU30MKI was marginally superior to both American F15/F16 legacy fighters. OR DID YOU CONVENIENTLY FORGET THAT BIT...

2ND PART OF YOUR REMARK is childish.

SU30MKI are rumbling annually with Typhoon Rafaels & F16s both in india and in europe. We3 have all seen the footage.

YET YOU CLAIM A fully trained battle hardened mki pilot will ditch his load at the sight of a 25 year old F16 from PAF bwecause he carrys an AMMRAAM./

Notoruius at least be realistic.

Storm Force

You have not aged one bit, your immaturity still persists and i am not surprised. You have just posted another troll with pathetic arguments that i am not going to waste my time rebutting, go through my post again and try countering the points i have made with facts and logic. Not your usual pathetic arguments, this is why your a fanboy because all you see are new shiny toys, not how they are going to be employed and whats the overall strategy to exploit their full potential. Typhoon, Flanker, F16, Rafale blah blah blah. You should really read all of your arguments, they are exactly identical to each other.
 
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AoA, In my opinion WoT is an altogether different ball game. We must realise the fact that most (if not all) major international intel' agencies are involved in WoT and have been interfering in KPK, Fata and Balouchistan also. To be able to counter it with the resources and skills we have is beyond the scope of one country.

The fact that we have survived this decade and are still in one peice is in itself an accomplishment. And if there is one department which hasfailedus again and again then its our non-existing media campaign. Pakistan has never officially blamed and campainged against any country for terror funding and intefering in our internal matters despite the fact that they have found links in every major terror incident. It seems that no leader is interested to defend our interests on the international
 
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