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JF-17 Thunder programme has achieved important milestones: Air Chief

Look towards the neighbor and see how there experiment of LCA turned out. with HAL and ADA being a separate entity

Wrong example rather an overly simplified example.

Tejas story has more twists then that.

the day Tejas does enter commercial production; It will do a better and more efficient job compared to PAF.

Nevertheless my point was more towards the private sector jumping in.
If a Tender X is available for money Y
there will be someone somewhere wanting to make that money.
 
What can be achieved by JF-17 by paf in defense ? Why china not inducted in it air force ? First example a fighter not inducted by own air force but still able to export to another country's Air force. Also I dont know but want to know about Paks contribution other then assembling in JF 17. I mean which sub systems are developed in pak of JF 17 ?

Hi

When the designer inducts in its own Air Force, cost sharing will benefit customer,
More efforts will be put in upgrades

Otherwise it will be more expensive on the customer part, and any upgrade will be solely by the customer responsibility

That's why they are looking to sell jf17 .

Designer not inducting in their own May have many reasons.
 
Hi,

The need of the designer and the needs of the immediate user are different----even though both are replacing the same aircraft---.

As the geographic threat to the designer ( china ) has increased by a multifold over a short period of time---so it has raised the minimum threshold capability of the fighter aircraft to be inducted----that is---basically at the minimum of a J10 standard capabilities----.

But on the other hand---the threat to the immediate user ( Pakistan )has stayed the same---the needs of the immediate users are different----.

The only blunder that the immediate user has committed is that it has not filled up the hole at the top. If it had ordered its 72 F16 BLK52's in 2005 and stuck with them----the issue of inducting the JF 17 would not have been brought up---.

A praise would have been given to the hi lo combination----. An order of 72 in 2005 would have ended up to 150 F16's by now----a perfect number of air superiority and multi role aircraft---and then another 250 JF 17's to compliment them----done deal.

A very interesting article on the F 16 today:

America's Lethal F-16 Fighter Jet Could Fly for 92 Years (In Theory) | The National Interest Blog
 
jf17 was a good program and now PAF must joing turkish TAI TFX program to enhance its knowledge as Turkey has good know how of western technology ...
 
HOW can you clarify ???

Hi,

The JF 17 is very close to the F16 in air to air----but is better equipped for naval strike missions----. The F16 is the best in the air to surface strikes---air superiority role and more options of smart weapons---.
 
What a logic , if its like that why don't we just put JFT as one & the last platform in PAF ?
It would be ridiculous even to think that JFT will be able to become super then all of the worlds major fighter jets & in different situations , its enough that its just giving us the force multipilyers & is sufficient within our domestic needs ?
No doubt its has covered a lot of ground , but as effective fighting flying force we need , mix of different fighter jets for different situations .

There's always a starting point.. It will always get better and better, you are just too pessimist to accept the fact.
 
I think PAF is more happy with Chinese avionics and with Russian power plant. Western stuff are expensive to buy and to maintain.
 
but dont you think Turkey is giving western technology at not almost but charging little more than Chinese( I respect Chinese people they great friend of Pakistanis not only friend but more than brothers but i am promoting Turkish technology because I think PA,PN & PAF should put all their eggs in one basket)...
 
My friend who is saying that it is a super duper fighter of the world? I am just stating the facts here -- it is a multi role fighter designed to replace fighter interceptors, strike fighters etc. in PAF which are now nearing the end of their designed lives and or any SLEP programs, except for the F-7PG and some later date ROSE upgrades!!!

Given the sanctions, reluctance of a lot of nations to sell us top line fighters in numbers, and paucity of funds, this is the best we could do!!!

We r not China, USA or India for that matter to afford mission specific aircraft! Don't have money, period. Multi Role is the way forward!! Even countries like USA are trying to narrow down number of operating types to not more than couple of front line fighters. USN at one time was flying F-14's, Phantoms, Corsairs, Skyhawks from the same deck!!!! Over a period of time and in a planned transition, a/c types were brought down now to one type F/A-18!! Btw mission has not changed!

We have F-7P/MP Airguard/Skybolt for fighter interceptor role -- nearing end of their designed lives and in essence obsolete with no capacity for upgrades after Chinese HMCS and Grifo MK II Radars etc. Optimized for Dog fighting. Prone to increasing number of crashes (44 crashed or written off! out of a supplied fleet of 129! All 6 squadrons operating the type(s) had air crashes -- so there is no maint. or training issue. Supplied 1986 to 1993)

We have F-7PG for Air Superiority role. Higher altitude performance is better then the prev. version of F-7's and with Grifo - MG radar. (6 crashed out of 57 supplied between 2001 and 2003)

Mirage III/V: Interdiction, night strike and CAS (78 a/c crashed or written off out of a total fleet of 201 -- 89 III's and 112 V's, supplied between 1967 and 2010 -- all the III's supplied after 1977 were second hand. 96 a/c were new built. Maritime strike element 32 a/c V PA-3 n DPA-2 were supplied new built between 1980 n 1983).

Successive upgrades of Mirages kept the planes on the flight line.

ROSE I (1995) included upgrades: HuD, HOTAS, FLIR, GPS, INS, MFD, SAGEM Nav/Attack sys., RWR/ECM suit, radar Altimeter and Grifo M3 radar. 45 Aust. Mirage III were upgraded to ROSE I configuration. The biggest take away from this upgrade was Look Down/Shoot Down/BVR Capability.

ROSE II: 20 ex French birds (1999), Mirage 5's were retro fitted for night time strike at low level. The retrofit included FLIR, options for advanced ECM pods, Laser rangefinder, Thermal Imaging Sensor, RWR/Counter Measures, GPS etc. Take away: Extremely Low Level night Strike.

ROSE III: 14 Ex French (Mirage VI -- 2002) and later ex Lebanese (Mirage III -- 2004) A/c were converted. Basically repeat of ROSE II but done in PAC. Take away: Precision/surgical Night Strike.

Now my friend what is lacking in JFT that these birds have and JFT does not or is not planned to? I'm no big fan of JFT but I would certainly give it time to mature as we gave time to Mirage (1967 to 2004) or for that matter F-7 to evolve to a definitive version that suited us!

Stocking of spares and sub assemblies of four different a/c types n sub types, three different types of engines (SENECMA Atar 9C, SAEF WP-7B(MB) -- F-7PM; WP-13F in F-7PG) and literally hundreds of thousands of line times multiplied by four, with two very different inventory, ordering, stocking with its own logistics SOP systems is a headache. French and Chinese systems are different. Computerized Inventory Mgmt. Systems are totally different with a completely separate methodology to inspect, replace,order, stock (MSO), with duplicity of effort at Base Repair, Depot Repair and even at Overhaul Facilities.

All this costs!!! And require tech specialists to be kept separate for each major type of a/c at Depot Repair and Logistics Supply Chain.

I'm hoping against hope that now the "Logic" is starting to dawn on you -- the current inventory of PAF is getting old fast. Number of air crashes will climb up as the air frames grow older -- it saps the morale not to speak of operational readiness of the squadrons, costs are going up to keep them up in the air.

Time to change!!!! And move on and not keep on discussing the Mirage 2000 fiasco or such other options (With all due respect to all!) We are here, circa 2015, JFT is a reality, paucity of funds is a reality (and btw no Saudi Miracle funds or Chinese largess is there), our birds are getting old fast, Indian influence on major a/c manufacturing nations is rising, and we are sanctions prone.

Take your pick! go for J-10 (Power plant issues r still there) go for J-11 (Issues with license and power plant export) or go for SU-30/35 directly from Russia (My pick -- but I think Russia is playing a game with India to get a continued engagement with Indian military orders - but lets see, I can be wrong here). But are we planning to induct 200 of these birds??? Not more than fifty or so at best given the problems with our economy. So how are we going to fill the gap of 150 or so fighters?? With Typhoons, F-35's, Block 60's, Gripen ...... dream on bro........ defies logic!!

Au revoir!
Thanks for a detailed reply ,
I think , we should go first on to your view of USAF or UNASF ?
what are they fighting against until now ?
Bunch of IRAQI MIGS without any efficient ground or air support you mean flying ducks ?
Why they need raptors /F-35 s now ?
Actually , I think Americans never came across any flying fighting opposing forces till now so their F-18s gives them more then what they need & if the need come across , I'm sure you will see even F- 14s updated versions flown from different assests ?
I'm not against , JFT nor I stated that we should dump them nor , I think we can be able to get top linners like $U-35s in large numbers ?
But , becoming smarter in strategic thinking is all what I meant ?
If we can emplyoe , 125 upgraded versions of JFT till 2017 , I'm sure we can built small but very elite strike force in PAF ?
if we can pin up , 2 or 3 sqdrns of SU-35s & 2 or 3 of F-16s with blk 52/60 & few of J-7s or even any form of J-11s cause last of their D series is totally made in China so we , can deal any rough card thrown up against us at any time ?
& then we can focus on our JFT super league programs , also aming on J-31s /J- 10s progress until in late , 2020s .
I'm a fan of JFT , & I can't throw my dynamic kid in a jungle that's what I feel about it .
COAS visit to USA will decide a lot what we can get from Russia , keep monitoring it .
Thanks I hope , I had cleared any bad air , found against me .
 
No bad air bud. Let us just say we both agree to disagree with each other.
 

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