J-20 Supercruise speed

[localoca]

YF-23 lost because it was not as balanced as the YF-22, plain and simple.

No plane on earth its as balanced as the F-22, whats your point? J-20 cant win a dog fight with a Raptor, so lets avoid one and be as stealthy as possible...

 

[Akasa]

so was the YF-23... we dont need a flanker like fighter, why to get in to fights when you can kill your agile enemies before they even know you are there?

When you are closing in on BVR range, there is no need to hide your rear RCS since your front is facing towards your enemy.

However, when you do get into a dogfight, the 3D TVC is your sidekick.

It's a win-win situation.

The engine nozzles on J-20 also have radar-absorbing tiles.

 

[localoca]

The engine nozzles on J-20 also have radar-absorbing tiles.

Just like the Raptor`s ceramic-matrix RAM?

 

[Akasa]

Just like the Raptor`s ceramic-matrix RAM?

Yes that's correct

 

[localoca]

Yes that's correct

ok thats good, but somehow I have the feeling that 3D TV will not be part of future 6th gen fighters, here have a look at a 6th gen consept and the YF-23, the rear end look so simmilar..

rear stealthy 6th gen design


rear Stealthy 5th gen desing


what do you guys think...

 

[below_freezing]

The value of 3-d thrust vectoring is quite questionable, especially considering its complexity, added weight and risk of being damaged.

 

[Akasa]

ok thats good, but somehow I have the feeling that 3D TV will not be part of future 6th gen fighters, here have a look at a 6th gen consept and the YF-23, the rear end look so simmilar..

rear stealthy 6th gen design


rear Stealthy 5th gen desing


what do you guys think...

It really depends on the role of the aircraft.

You can emphasize on stealthiness, or you can emphasize on maneuverability.

3D thrust vectoring has its advantages as well in close quarter combat, especially when stealth aircraft will have a tough time locking each other. If your RCS is not as good as your enemy's, it's better to sacrifice for some maneuverability.

 

[kurutoga]

I just read some Russian articles. Their experts seem to think J-20 is optimized to fly at a speed between M1.3 and M1.6.

 

[Akasa]

I just read some Russian articles. Their experts seem to think J-20 is optimized to fly at a speed between M1.3 and M1.6.

These experts are the same people who put a two-piece canopy on the T-50 and still call it a "Raptor killer".

 

[below_freezing]

It really depends on the role of the aircraft.

You can emphasize on stealthiness, or you can emphasize on maneuverability.

3D thrust vectoring has its advantages as well in close quarter combat, especially when stealth aircraft will have a tough time locking each other. If your RCS is not as good as your enemy's, it's better to sacrifice for some maneuverability.

remember that RCS advances have decreasing gains and asymptotically approach a fixed value of minimal detection distance, while maneuver is essentially unlimited except by physiology (and especially instantaneous turns). however i'm still suspicious of 3d thrust vector, it seems far too heavy.

 

[S10]

No plane on earth its as balanced as the F-22, whats your point? J-20 cant win a dog fight with a Raptor, so lets avoid one and be as stealthy as possible...

That is another dangerous and quite ignorant assumption. With WS-15 3D TVC nozzle, all moving tail and canard, the J-20 can exceed F-22's manoevurability. It is designed from the start to be more agile than the Raptor, with better supercruise ability.

Even if you make an exact replica of YF-23, the Americans have at least two decades ahead of you in VLO (aka, stealth) research. They have been refining their techniques in signal management since the SR-71 in the 1970's. So if you take that approach, you will end up with a plane that is inferior in all parameters. In another words, you won't be as "stealthy" as the F-22 because you have not yet reached that level yet, and you will be picked to pieces in a dogfight.

At least in its current design, the J-20 will have a shot. It's better to surpass you opponent in some aspects than being inferior in all.

 

[S10]

I just read some Russian articles. Their experts seem to think J-20 is optimized to fly at a speed between M1.3 and M1.6.

The F-22 is able to supercruise at Mach 1.6. The reason they design the J-20 to have a long body is to reduce drag at supersonic speed, and rumored to have obtained very good results. They're aiming for at least Mach 1.7.

 

[S10]

ok thats good, but somehow I have the feeling that 3D TV will not be part of future 6th gen fighters, here have a look at a 6th gen consept and the YF-23, the rear end look so simmilar..

rear stealthy 6th gen design


rear Stealthy 5th gen desing


what do you guys think...

To be honest, 2D TVC found on YF-23 and F-22 seems to suppress radar and IR signature better. On the other hand, 3D TVC provides all around better manoevurability and control, but at the cost of increased signature and complexity. With that said, there are things that can be done to reduce the nozzle radar and IR return, but there is a certain limit.

With the design philosophy of J-20, 3D TVC will likely be the choice.

 

[gambit]

That is another dangerous and quite ignorant assumption. With WS-15 3D TVC nozzle, all moving tail and canard, the J-20 can exceed F-22's manoevurability. It is designed from the start to be more agile than the Raptor, with better supercruise ability.

Nope...No assumptions there.

 

[duhastmish]

Nope...No assumptions there.

yeh absolutely right captain....

its way too power in maneuverability, stealth and most importantly IMAGINATIONnnnnnnnnn....